Has Hawthorn taken the mantle of big 4 and kicked out Richmond

[Eleftherios]

19,929 (sell out)

The second biggest ever crowd in Tasmania.

Just 10,200 less then the pathetic crowd for the 3rd vs. 5th encounter at the TD yesterday between the minnows...



Really?

Which explains why Hawthorn has always had a larger membership then Richmond (bar 2006) and had one of the highest take up in Bigfooty memberships during 2004 and 2005?

All this shows is that Hawthorn supporters are in a higher socio-economic group than Tiger Supporters. A larger percentage of your fans can afford membership.
Richmond on the other hand has a larger fan base but due to our fans lower socio-economic standing, a very small percentage of our fans are able to buy membership.

Statistics alone do not show the reality of the situation.

 

[Hawkk]

All this shows is that Hawthorn supporters are in a higher socio-economic group than Tiger Supporters. A larger percentage of your fans can afford membership.
Richmond on the other hand has a larger fan base but due to our fans lower socio-economic standing, a very small percentage of our fans are able to buy membership.

Statistics alone do not show the reality of the situation.

Based on?

Obviously those same fans can't afford newspapers, computers, telephones or tickets to go to games, making those fans (if they actually exist) void.

Collingwood also have a low 'socio-economic standing' but they still continue to dominate membership, supporter numbers and attendances

Apart from statistics irrelevent 30 years ago, there is absolutely no evidence to support Richmond having a significantly larger support base then Hawthorn or for that matter Geelong

50 years ago, the Melbourne Football Club was the biggest club in the league, therefore they must be the biggest club in the 21st century.

 

[Eleftherios]

Based on, obviously those same fans can't afford newspapers, computers, telephones or tickets to go to games, making those fans (iof they actually exist) void.

Collingwood also have a low 'socio-economic standing' but they still continue to dominate membership, supporter numbers and attendances

Apart from statistics irrelevent 30 years ago, there is absolutely no evidence to support Richmond having a significantly larger support base then Hawthorn or for that matter Geelong

50 years ago, the Melbourne Football Club was the biggest club in the league, therefore they must be the biggest club in the 21st century.

I base it on what I see at the games.
At the recent Geelong v Richmond game at Telstra dome, there was more yellow and black colors around the stands then blue and white, but keep geelong out of. They are not even a Melbourne club.
They have a whole town to themselves.
Why not go to the game next week and have an unbiased look at the crowd, I am sure you will see more Yellow and black than Brown and gold.
After the game, come on this thread and honestly tell me which colours were more prevalent.

 

[Hawkk]

I base it on what I see at the games.
At the recent Geelong v Richmond game at Telstra dome, there was more yellow and black colors around the stands then blue and white, but keep geelong out of. They are not even a Melbourne club.

The game that only drew 42,000?

The game after we drew 86,000 (sell out) the week before?

They have a whole town to themselves.
Why not go to the game next week and have an unbiased look at the crowd, I am sure you will see more Yellow and black than Brown and gold.
After the game, come on this thread and honestly tell me which colours were more prevalent.

I don't base my judgements on bias guesses, I look at the facts. Look at the memberships, attendances, supporter numbers etc. etc. and clearly a sizable difference does NOT exist, though at their peak a gap does still exist.

FWIW, based on the like for like games this season - where games have been played in comparable venues, the Hawks have outdrawn Richmond in every game this season, not one comparable Richmond game has outdrawn a Hawks game THIS YEAR...obviously that's heavily on the back of form this year, if the results reversed obviously Richmond would outdraw Hawthorn and then some.

Take your yellow and black goggles off.

Do you take a random survey at the ground, or base your guesses on a 'gut feel' probably from your Richmond reserve seat?

 

[Eleftherios]

The game that only drew 42,000?

The game after we drew 86,000 (sell out) the week before?[/B][/B][/B]




I don't base my judgements on bias guesses, I look at the facts. Look at the memberships, attendances, supporter numbers etc. etc. and clearly a sizable difference does NOT exist, though at their peak a gap does still exist.

FWIW, based on the like for like games this season - where games have been played in comparable venues, the Hawks have outdrawn Richmond in every game this season, not one comparable Richmond game has outdrawn a Hawks game THIS YEAR...obviously that's heavily on the back of form this year, if the results reversed obviously Richmond would outdraw Hawthorn and then some.

Take your yellow and black goggles off.

Do you take a random survey at the ground, or base your guesses on a 'gut feel' probably from your Richmond reserve seat?

You're missing my point, Hawks v Cat's will always get a bigger crowd then Tigers v Cats. We are a rabble at the moment and it goes without saying that the Hawk v Cats game is the better by far to watch.
I, like most people I know, can tell if the balance is 50/50, 33/66 or 25/75 and throw in some neutrals too. It is a bit harder with Hawks & Tigers as our colours are similar. Even harder when the balance between the two supporters are almost equal. However my point is, considering Hawthorn are premiership contenders this year and we are a rabble, the balance next week should be around 50/50 give or take 10%. However if the tables were turned and Richmond was in Hawthorns position, I'm sure it would more likely be 33/66 in Richmonds favour.
At the end of the day, it does not matter. As long as I can see a decent game of footy regardless of the teams involved, I'm content.

 

[Hawkk]

You're missing my point, Hawks v Cat's will always get a bigger crowd then Tigers v Cats. We are a rabble at the moment and it goes without saying that the Hawk v Cats game is the better by far to watch.
I, like most people I know, can tell if the balance is 50/50, 33/66 or 25/75 and throw in some neutrals too. It is a bit harder with Hawks & Tigers as our colours are similar. Even harder when the balance between the two supporters are almost equal. However my point is, considering Hawthorn are premiership contenders this year and we are a rabble, the balance next week should be around 50/50 give or take 10%. However if the tables were turned and Richmond was in Hawthorns position, I'm sure it would more likely be 33/66 in Richmonds favour.
At the end of the day, it does not matter. As long as I can see a decent game of footy regardless of the teams involved, I'm content.

You’re missing my point.

In every single game this season, Hawthorn has drawn a larger crowd in a comparable game, in a ground that can house near the expected crowd, I'm not saying that we have more supporters, which is wrong, but the gap between the 2 clubs isn't as large as it is between say, Essendon and Richmond. My point is that when both sides are at their peak, then Richmond would have a gap over the Hawks (though clearly not 66/33) but while Hawthorn are in the top 2 and Richmond are in the 8-12 positioning, it stands to reason that Hawthorn would outdraw you in most, if not all, games.

I base my assertions, based on a number of factors, attendance and membership just being 2 categories. Clearly there is no evidence to support the view that Richmond clearly has a much lager support base other then historical data from 1980 which suggests that Richmond's crowds have declined to home games, which was my point.

 

[Eleftherios]

You’re missing my point.

In every single game this season, Hawthorn has drawn a larger crowd in a comparable game, in a ground that can house near the expected crowd, I'm not saying that we have more supporters, which is wrong, but the gap between the 2 clubs isn't as large as it is between say, Essendon and Richmond. My point is that when both sides are at their peak, then Richmond would have a gap over the Hawks (though clearly not 66/33) but while Hawthorn are in the top 2 and Richmond are in the 8-12 positioning, it stands to reason that Hawthorn would outdraw you in most, if not all, games.

I base my assertions, based on a number of factors, attendance and membership just being 2 categories. Clearly there is no evidence to support the view that Richmond clearly has a much lager support base other then historical data from 1980 which suggests that Richmond's crowds have declined to home games, which was my point.

There is no misunderstanding, I agree totally with your first paragraph, and yes 33/66 is a bit overboard on second thoughts.
However with your last point, I never meant to say Richmond are drawing similar crowds to Hawthorn. Hawthorn (even though I hate to say it) are a great team to watch at the moment. And I am sure as far as neutral supporter's game attendence is concerned, It is probable 90/10 Hawthorns way.
I meant our colours are similar and it is harder to tell who is who at a game between our two teams, then for instance a Hawthorn v Geelong or Richmond v Swans.

 

[dave10]

Really, based on?

Essendon have more members, draw more people to Melbourne based games always and always feature higher up in the supporter polls.

Richmond in comparison to Hawthorn do not


Yet Hawthorn - a non 'Big 4' club, has drawn more people on average to their Melbourne based games then the Big 4 Tigers ever have, surely that in itself questions whether or not a sizable gap between the clubs still exists in the 21st century?

My argument is based on a equally successful Richmond (if they were lying 2nd) Vs Hawthorn. Pound for pound, Richmond would outdraw Hawthorn more often than not. I doubt think you could argue against that...

I am full of respect for how Hawthorn is developing their club. They are very strong and powerful, the majority of football followers underestimate their strenght and growth in the last 10 years. However, right now, I would back an inform Richmond to outdraw an inform Hawthorn.

 

[Consumed]

My argument is based on a equally successful Richmond (if they were lying 2nd) Vs Hawthorn. Pound for pound, Richmond would outdraw Hawthorn more often than not. I doubt think you could argue against that...

I am full of respect for how Hawthorn is developing their club. They are very strong and powerful, the majority of football followers underestimate their strenght and growth in the last 10 years. However, right now, I would back an inform Richmond to outdraw an inform Hawthorn.

This may never happen in our lifetime. Therefore it is a moot point. Or at least relegated to the pile of never to be actually empirical.
For the last 27 years, Richmond has been out of finals, while Hawthorn has constantly been in them, and won at least 5 Grand Finals.

 

[Philth]

Hmmm... West Coast, Freo, Adelaide, Collingwood, Carlton, Essendon.

That's 6 and counting. In 10 years time, you'll probably be able to throw Sydney in there as well.

20,000 at the SCG last weekend against Freo, with the Swans expected to win. I dont think we'll be seeing Sydney in there, mate.

To answer the OP, it would be interesting to see crowd figures if both teams were top 4 and playing well. Maybe just in the Tiger's favour?

 

[Ron The Bear]

All this shows is that Hawthorn supporters are in a higher socio-economic group than Tiger Supporters. A larger percentage of your fans can afford membership.
Richmond on the other hand has a larger fan base but due to our fans lower socio-economic standing, a very small percentage of our fans are able to buy membership.

Statistics alone do not show the reality of the situation.

I don't know whether that's true to any significant extent, in my experience anyway. I reckon a lot of otherwise successful Richmond supporters just won't commit to watching shit. If we ever get it right they'll come out of the woodwork like pilgrims going to see the Pope.

Considering the crap we've dished up for so long, our match attendances are exceptional.

 

[gaelictiogar]

20,000 at the SCG last weekend against Freo, with the Swans expected to win. I dont think we'll be seeing Sydney in there, mate.

To answer the OP, it would be interesting to see crowd figures if both teams were top 4 and playing well. Maybe just in the Tiger's favour?

It is very easy to check what Richmond's attendances are when they are top 4 and going well. Visit stats.rleague. Historically Richmond are the best drawing club in Australian sport when top 4 onfield with Collingwood the only serious rival during the Dyer and Hart eras. We have topped the attendances at home over 30 times with over 10 of those at Punt road during the 1920s to 40s when we were the top draw as often than not. We are the best ever drawing spooners, We have been No.2 in home attendances twice in the past decade in years when we didn't make the top eight let alone Four.

Historically a top 4 Richmond rivals Collingwood. This is a simple statement of verifyable fact. There would be no comparison with a top 4 Hawthorn. ALL history suggests the tigers thousands ahead.

Of course I accept we have to wait for a team to prove this nowadays but ALL history suggests we would be simply massive if we had a real team to barrack for. we always have been.

 

[gaelictiogar]

Thge question has been asked how Richmond and hawthorn would compare if both were in the top 4.

I can't answer but I can tell you all what happens when Richmond do finish in the top four.

Since records began in 1921

Richmond top 4 : 31 times:

Number 1 home draw 18 times including 8 at Punt Road
Number 2 home draw 5 times including 5 at Punt road
Number 3 5 times
Number 4 2 times
Number 5 Once

In is an historical FACT that more often than not a top 4 Richmond has been the figgest home draw in Australian sport and this was true as much at Punt road almost as much as at the G.

How Hawthorn - or indeed anyone besides Collingwood - compares to this is a good question.