Autopsy Hawks vs Roos - tear it apart here

[Gunstall19]

You are ridiculous. No point even commenting, it's your way or the highway. I'll leave it to you Clarko, good luck.

Oh please, I got a yellow card on your board for just telling your fans to give then 2yr coach Brad Scott a chance. Seriously, if you think you know our club's strengths and weaknesses better than us you are egotistical and delusional. The facts are North played awesome and Hawthorn played awful. Good teams win despite form. North and Hawthorn are not on the same level. Stop thinking you are.

 

[moginie]

My philosophy on umpiring is that it all evens out by the last quarter. Usually they get a few doubtful ones, we get a few doubtful ones and by the end of the day, the frees are never equal, but the umpires don't matter.

But a 10-2 differential in the last quarter meant that they had 8 extra frees. That equates to a 32 possession game, and that's 8 easy clearances/rebounds/shots for goal.
That's like having an extra star player, a 32 possession player, on the field.

Like North having 2 Majak Daws ...

.

Given he had 7 touches, it's like four and a half Majak Daws.

 

[Axle17]

Brian Lake to make the AA team this year.
Bloke is a changed man. Love it!

 

[Bobber]

Just so we don't get confused here, "Pup" is actually Liam Shiels. I'm not sure if that's who you're talking about, but by the description, it sounds like Puopolo. He had one of the better seven possession games. His chasing, and harassing and contesting was first-rate.

As for "Pup", I am a huge wrap for him, but a spell in the twos couldn't do him any harm I don't think. I just don't know what he's doing out there at the minute.

Is this actually True in regards to Nicknames??? My mates and I always refer to Puopolo as Pup, kinda awkward.......

Anyway, I remember his chase from 1 wing all the way to the back flank on the other side of the ground, far out his little legs can pump out some speed, he may have only got 7 possies but far out I love his work ethic

 

[Harper_Hawk]

Any NM supporter that comments gets shut down by Hawks. No point. I give an honest opinion and even credit you and you still shut it down. I think there is no better template to use than that, if you pressure the Hawks and beat them to the ball they will struggle. If you give the Hawks time and space they will punish you. Stop Birchall and the Hawks lack a bit of class & dash from defence.

Still lots of class around the ground to have to stop of course though. Always very hard. You don't even credit North, it's just about "how down all of your players were"... Of course...

I'm all for open discussion about the hawks. Their good and bad points from opposition supporters. I get the feeling you're starting to rub people up the wrong way with your faint praise. A little like your mate The Big Lebowski. Sure you guys played really well on the weekend and no one is disputing that. You've told us on least a few occasions in this thread whilst complimenting us. We get it.

"if you pressure the Hawks and beat them to the ball they will struggle. If you give the Hawks time and space they will punish you." You are stating the obvious here about every team. No need to come on here and tell us this just after we have won the game. It sounds a little like sour grapes. Concentrate on beating the Power next week. Good luck for the rest of the season.

 

[Procrastinator35]

One word sums up this game for me...................................................CYRIL! Nuf Said.

 

[WWSD]

I'd have Shiels on Sloane and Lewis on Dangerfield.

 

[moginie]

I'd have Shiels on Sloane and Lewis on Dangerfield.

Got to agree here. Sloane is the barometer.

 

[Changa10]

Was Lindsay Thomas crying after the siren? Surely not!

 

[WWSD]

Got to agree here. Sloane is the barometer.

A few teams last year made the mistake of only shutting down Dangerfield and not Sloane. In my opinon Sloane is just as damaging as Dangerfield when he has the ball. We really need to put a tag him as well.

 

[Thaihawk]

My philosophy on umpiring is that it all evens out by the last quarter. Usually they get a few doubtful ones, we get a few doubtful ones and by the end of the day, the frees are never equal, but the umpires don't matter.

But a 10-2 differential in the last quarter meant that they had 8 extra frees. That equates to a 32 possession game, and that's 8 easy clearances/rebounds/shots for goal.
That's like having an extra star player, a 32 possession player, on the field.

Like North having 2 Majak Daws ...

.

Actually, Davo I just watched the last quarter again, and counted that 5 of North's frees (1doutful) were in the back half, 1 doubtful in the centre. However, of the 4 in their their forward half they scored 2 goals i behind. All of the frees in this area were disputed, or considered lucky by one or more of the commentators. Add to that three frees we should have got, and I consider we were very lucky to win.
Thomas kicked 5 goals, at least 2, and maybe 3 were from frees. The last one Goo did drag the ball in, but Thomas tackled him friom the front, and this has been given the other way many times this year.

 

[B&GBlood]

How is Savage constantly getting a game as sub, can't think of once he has come on and had an impact.

Collingwood final after Whitecross when down.

 

[B&GBlood]

3rd of May... and yes, I'm bloody sick and tired of them too mate.

I am so sick of it Bosk, do us all a favour just lurk and stop positing!

 

[WWSD]

Collingwood final after Whitecross when down.

It must be said that Savage form right now is a real concern. When you consider he's been down on form for a while now. He hasn't even put in a good quarter of football at all this year. I know he has been the Sub twice, but he hasn't even been involved in many contests. He's rarely been sighted basically. After his terrific break-out season in 2011, you would think that he would show natural progression and development as a footballer as he gains more experience, rather then going backwards at a fast rate.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

A few observations:

1. Barometer Birchall - been thinking about this for a little while. Think back a few years and Grant Birchall really emerged in 2008. He then really struggled for form in 2009 and 2010, lacking accountability and confidence. He then reinvented himself in 2011 an took his game up another notch in 2012. The parallels with team performance are uncanny. Now, no player is ever solely responsible for the team's fortunes but the weekend again emphasised that without the backline drive and overlap of Birchall we lose some structure and become static which has a flow on effect to our game. I mean, think of the few games where Birchall has been quiet the last two seasons and the type of football Hawthorn played. Most recently this week - the time before was the GF. I believe Birchall will continue to get more attention which should only benefit the team as we work out alternative avenues to create the same drive. IMO, this is better than having to make the adjustment during finals.

2. Mitchell the flanker - not for a minute do I believe that Clarkson thinks Mitchell's best position is on a half back line. I think he is giving more time for other players to get a run through the middle - to give us more options, a better 2nd string and for some critical future planning. Smart by Clarko and full credit to Mitch on this for sacrificing his game (his bread and butter) for the benefit of the team - class act. I also think it's a good idea - BUT it was interesting to hear Mitchell say on radio that when he went back into the middle it took him some time to get used to it again. Clarko will have to manage this carefully - developing the B graders can't come at the cost of the form and confidence of the A graders as throwing in the A team when an opposing midfield is on top may not adequately turn the game if the A's have had little to no midfield time in the lead up.

3. Tall/small balance - this will be tough this year. On the fringes, I believe the talls on paper are better than the smalls but I'm not sure we can afford to play them all. Against better teams, we lack run and spread. Finding the balance (and who to drop) will be hard. Hale/Bailey would be stiff and Gunston is young and brilliant in his role (key/3rd tall) but due to lack of speed, seems unable to play other roles. Hopefully the return of Anderson, Whitecross, etc will help solve the riddle before finals.

4. When I was a kid - having the 'wood' over another team started when you had beaten them the last three (or more) occassions. Interestingly, North just became the tenth team that we have a current streak of three or more wins against! (the others being Carlton (9), Melbourne (9), Bulldogs (4), Port (4), Freo (4), Collingwood (4), Brisbane (3), Essendon (3) and Gold Coast (3). If we beat Adelaide next week, they will become number 11! Don't know how to tag Ron the Bear or Rogers Results but I wonder if this is a record. Regardless, I like the stat and am impressed that we have such a good recent record over about two thirds of the competition.

 

[HR Roughnstuf]

Brian Lake to make the AA team this year.
Bloke is a changed man. Love it!

Aaaahhhh, nope. That's how he has always played.

 

[B&GBlood]

Birch has been critiqued here as being down on his usual run, North were well schooled and covered all our runners well, Gibson on Smith for example. The only players they didn't / couldn't shut down were Cyril and Hill. Despite all their efforts and planing two players were enough to see us lead for most the game. Had we kicked straight in the first, a six goal lead was ours.

It should not be a surprise that the Ruck advantage from Goldi meant their midds had a field day, very hard to counter that sort of dominance.
We did well to come back after they hit the lead, some very good work from the senior heads in the last.

 

[Neville Bartos]

My highlight was the return of the almighty Hawks vs North punch-on! It was great to see us win a game like that when all signs pointed towards a certain loss. It'll give them massive confidence that we can win when everything's going wrong

 

[cryptor]

A few observations:

1. Barometer Birchall - been thinking about this for a little while. Think back a few years and Grant Birchall really emerged in 2008. He then really struggled for form in 2009 and 2010, lacking accountability and confidence. He then reinvented himself in 2011 an took his game up another notch in 2012. The parallels with team performance are uncanny. Now, no player is ever solely responsible for the team's fortunes but the weekend again emphasised that without the backline drive and overlap of Birchall we lose some structure and become static which has a flow on effect to our game. I mean, think of the few games where Birchall has been quiet the last two seasons and the type of football Hawthorn played. Most recently this week - the time before was the GF. I believe Birchall will continue to get more attention which should only benefit the team as we work out alternative avenues to create the same drive. IMO, this is better than having to make the adjustment during finals.

2. Mitchell the flanker - not for a minute do I believe that Clarkson thinks Mitchell's best position is on a half back line. I think he is giving more time for other players to get a run through the middle - to give us more options, a better 2nd string and for some critical future planning. Smart by Clarko and full credit to Mitch on this for sacrificing his game (his bread and butter) for the benefit of the team - class act. I also think it's a good idea - BUT it was interesting to hear Mitchell say on radio that when he went back into the middle it took him some time to get used to it again. Clarko will have to manage this carefully - developing the B graders can't come at the cost of the form and confidence of the A graders as throwing in the A team when an opposing midfield is on top may not adequately turn the game if the A's have had little to no midfield time in the lead up.

3. Tall/small balance - this will be tough this year. On the fringes, I believe the talls on paper are better than the smalls but I'm not sure we can afford to play them all. Against better teams, we lack run and spread. Finding the balance (and who to drop) will be hard. Hale/Bailey would be stiff and Gunston is young and brilliant in his role (key/3rd tall) but due to lack of speed, seems unable to play other roles. Hopefully the return of Anderson, Whitecross, etc will help solve the riddle before finals.

4. When I was a kid - having the 'wood' over another team started when you had beaten them the last three (or more) occassions. Interestingly, North just became the tenth team that we have a current streak of three or more wins against! (the others being Carlton (9), Melbourne (9), Bulldogs (4), Port (4), Freo (4), Collingwood (4), Brisbane (3), Essendon (3) and Gold Coast (3). If we beat Adelaide next week, they will become number 11! Don't know how to tag Ron the Bear or Rogers Results but I wonder if this is a record. Regardless, I like the stat and am impressed that we have such a good recent record over about two thirds of the competition.

1. While I don't disagree with you on this in general there have been plenty of games over the last couple seasons where Birchall has been quiet and we've still done really well. The one that popped straight into my head was against Essendon late last year. Birchall still got a decent amount of ball but we didn't get to see much run and carry and a lot of his disposals were rushed. Despite this we belted them to high hell. (Ahh memories )

2. Not only is it good for giving the nexts in line a run through the midfield, it's a good opportunity to give guys like Mitchell a rest without doing the "blatantly arrogant" thing of resting players and appearing to "not show respect" against certain teams. With the added benefit that if we're suddenly having a bad quarter/half/game against a team we should beat we can just rotate him and the other big guns back into the midfield. You're completely right about us not wanting to over-do it and risk playing with his form.

3. I think we're currently just experimenting with how we line up with the aim to have a pretty solid idea of our best 22 by about round 16 or so. It's still not entirely clear whether or not taking both Hale and Bailey into games is worth it. When they're both on song, winning the hitouts and kicking goals it seems like the best idea ever but the moment even one of them is off and we're getting pantsed around the stoppages and the opposition are running rings around them it really doesn't seem like we can risk taking them both into a game (especially a final) and not have them both play well. That's why for me unless Roughy is going to return to 2008 goal kicking form his best position is the forward/ruck role he played last year. We just need to manage him so that's he not spent by finals.

4. Notice how the media don't beat up the streaks we currently have over Carlton and Melbourne like they do with us and the Cats. Yes, I know why the Cats one gets so much more attention but for a decent side like Carlton (who we don't even play twice every year) to still not have beaten us at least once in the last 9 games, surely it's worth a mention? Anyway, probably only Geelong that have us beaten in having the most amount of "streaks" against teams.

 

[Rushed_Behind]

1. While I don't disagree with you on this in general there have been plenty of games over the last couple seasons where Birchall has been quiet and we've still done really well. The one that popped straight into my head was against Essendon late last year. Birchall still got a decent amount of ball but we didn't get to see much run and carry and a lot of his disposals were rushed. Despite this we belted them to high hell. (Ahh memories )

2. Not only is it good for giving the nexts in line a run through the midfield, it's a good opportunity to give guys like Mitchell a rest without doing the "blatantly arrogant" thing of resting players and appearing to "not show respect" against certain teams. With the added benefit that if we're suddenly having a bad quarter/half/game against a team we should beat we can just rotate him and the other big guns back into the midfield. You're completely right about us not wanting to over-do it and risk playing with his form.

3. I think we're currently just experimenting with how we line up with the aim to have a pretty solid idea of our best 22 by about round 16 or so. It's still not entirely clear whether or not taking both Hale and Bailey into games is worth it. When they're both on song, winning the hitouts and kicking goals it seems like the best idea ever but the moment even one of them is off and we're getting pantsed around the stoppages and the opposition are running rings around them it really doesn't seem like we can risk taking them both into a game (especially a final) and not have them both play well. That's why for me unless Roughy is going to return to 2008 goal kicking form his best position is the forward/ruck role he played last year. We just need to manage him so that's he not spent by finals.

4. Notice how the media don't beat up the streaks we currently have over Carlton and Melbourne like they do with us and the Cats. Yes, I know why the Cats one gets so much more attention but for a decent side like Carlton (who we don't even play twice every year) to still not have beaten us at least once in the last 9 games, surely it's worth a mention? Anyway, probably only Geelong that have us beaten in having the most amount of "streaks" against teams.

Agree wholeheartedly with points 2 & 3. Listening to hodgey on classified they're just trying to bank wins and start to peak later. He said we played our best footy from rds 16-22. Obviously he mentioned the PF and GF and said in not so many words we were cooked and didnt take our chances

 

[Great 2008]

Watched it last night. Poor kicking in the first should of had us 5 or 6 up. If Bud had nailed his first few he would have got his tail up. Bank it and move on. Hopefully we can at least win one of our next 2 without Cyril (hopefully both).

 

[Roger Rogerson]

It must be said that Savage form right now is a real concern. When you consider he's been down on form for a while now. He hasn't even put in a good quarter of football at all this year. I know he has been the Sub twice, but he hasn't even been involved in many contests. He's rarely been sighted basically. After his terrific break-out season in 2011, you would think that he would show natural progression and development as a footballer as he gains more experience, rather then going backwards at a fast rate.

He needs to be playing full games for his development. He is neither here nor there - plays one or two at box hill and then plays as sub in the AFL.

His development is suffering because of this.

They need to make a call on him either way so he can get some genuine match fitness and find some form.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Watched it last night. Poor kicking in the first should of had us 5 or 6 up. If Bud had nailed his first few he would have got his tail up. Bank it and move on. Hopefully we can at least win one of our next 2 without Cyril (hopefully both).

I was thinking this as a comparison to the Collingwood game where we were mailing everything even when we were being beaten around the game.

Goal kicking is becoming the most important skill in the game. Imagine if LT had the yips still and Buddy had maintained his 75% accuracy that he brought into the game - it would have been a completely different game.

 

[Davo23]

A few observations:

1.
2. Mitchell the flanker - not for a minute do I believe that Clarkson thinks Mitchell's best position is on a half back line. I think he is giving more time for other players to get a run through the middle - to give us more options, a better 2nd string and for some critical future planning. Smart by Clarko and full credit to Mitch on this for sacrificing his game (his bread and butter) for the benefit of the team - class act. I also think it's a good idea - BUT it was interesting to hear Mitchell say on radio that when he went back into the middle it took him some time to get used to it again. Clarko will have to manage this carefully - developing the B graders can't come at the cost of the form and confidence of the A graders as throwing in the A team when an opposing midfield is on top may not adequately turn the game if the A's have had little to no midfield time in the lead up.


.

Some good points, HG.

The big thing with Sam Mitchell is that he is our best distributor of the ball, and being at half back gives him a little more time to set up the play. We always have the option to put him back in the middle when necessary.

And it gives him a break from the heat in the middle, and idiot taggers who jump on him to stop him.
He just cops a physical smashing each week: taggers like Ling used to just hit him when he got near the ball.

And it will help to extend his career.


.

 

[HR Roughnstuf]

1. While I don't disagree with you on this in general there have been plenty of games over the last couple seasons where Birchall has been quiet and we've still done really well. The one that popped straight into my head was against Essendon late last year. Birchall still got a decent amount of ball but we didn't get to see much run and carry and a lot of his disposals were rushed. Despite this we belted them to high hell. (Ahh memories )

Definitely true. Birchall is a star but I don't think it is a case of shut down Birchall, shut down hawks. In that Essendon game Birch was well held, but who bobs up? Suckling with 20+ and 4 goals. Problem is Suckling is out for season. We need players like Goo to get back to his best this year to pick up any slack. Also I think Burgoyne has played less in the back line this year than last. But I truth we have versatility going forward I think.