Autopsy Hawks vs Saints - tear it apart here

[Arkadia]

That was a lucky escape yesterday, a lot of fumbles. We could not get clean possession and at stages in the back half we were doing circle work with handball.

The way i saw it on TV i definitely thought we lost the stoppages.

I hope Spangher comes back quickly. We need him until Roughie is ready to go.

Give Mitchell a contract extension now.

Well this time last year we were "WLWL" and this year we are "LWWW", so far we are ahead of the ledger, cannot ask for more.

 

[Admiral Ackbar]

Our defence is looking quite vulnerable especially with out Gibbo. Add to the fact that we've lost Lake and our defence is under a heap of pressure.

Anyway, Mitchell has had probably his best ever start to a years. He's pulling some crazy numbers.

As much as I hate these close games and near losses, I'm glad we found a way to win and didn't through it away like we used to quite a lot. Anyway a 3-1 start to the season is great and I think once we get some players back, we should have a good run towards the middle and end of the year.

 

[Garf]

Good sides get away with close wins, and we've had more than our fair share over the past 2 seasons. The Saints are on the up though. Four points is four points however but next week will be a test for us.

 

[tige19]

Tige, you're a big pump-up for JOR........my problem watching him is I don't see the class, the absolute quality.
So regardless of how many games he's played, I'd expect to see in at least 1 a period where it all came together for him, and his class would show through. May be just a 10 - 15 minute period.
By class I mean it showing that the game had slowed down for him and he was able to work ahead of the moving parts around him....
Taking possession, stopping, assessing, blind turn around an incoming missile, jetting forward and setting up a teammate.
Winning a ball, stopping, playing a teammate with a perfectly looped handball 6-8 metres into space that the hawk didn't have to slow for, where the handball actually made him take the run and space.
A great mark where he outclassed his opponent.
A three bounce run, pause, and 50 meter goal making all around just watch.

I mean, you know, anything that dripped class.
I'm not expecting entire games, followed up by entire other games (though Sicily knockers seem to believe only a complete 4 quarter effort will convince them of his ability), just simply cameos where you go - oooooohhhhhh.
In his entire career, including his time with GWS, his best moments come from collecting a ball/hard ball, and accelerating into a bit of space before firing out an awkward height incorrect weight handball, or below average strength kick.
I know he had the one kick 2 games ago to Gunston where he lowered his eyes and picked him out, but for me that's light on for highlights....

I don't see it.
I see more Vanders than Crawf.

I know you want it for the young man and for our great team, but aren't you wishing on a star?

There was a moment against the Eagles where he snapped over his shoulder and kicked a goal and it showed some class, but no doubt I can appreciate your concerns and their warranted.

One thing you need to remember is he is 21, last week after the 1st quarter where he was touch less he ended up with 15 and done some nice things. The tools are there but he has no consintancy, once he finds that consintancy you'll see him flourish. We need his development, what we are seeing out of Langford isn't going to cut it as a staple of our future midfield.

Come in JOM

 

[MadDawg]

Tige, you're a big pump-up for JOR........my problem watching him is I don't see the class, the absolute quality.
So regardless of how many games he's played, I'd expect to see in at least 1 a period where it all came together for him, and his class would show through. May be just a 10 - 15 minute period.
By class I mean it showing that the game had slowed down for him and he was able to work ahead of the moving parts around him....
Taking possession, stopping, assessing, blind turn around an incoming missile, jetting forward and setting up a teammate.
Winning a ball, stopping, playing a teammate with a perfectly looped handball 6-8 metres into space that the hawk didn't have to slow for, where the handball actually made him take the run and space.
A great mark where he outclassed his opponent.
A three bounce run, pause, and 50 meter goal making all around just watch.

I mean, you know, anything that dripped class.
I'm not expecting entire games, followed up by entire other games (though Sicily knockers seem to believe only a complete 4 quarter effort will convince them of his ability), just simply cameos where you go - oooooohhhhhh.
In his entire career, including his time with GWS, his best moments come from collecting a ball/hard ball, and accelerating into a bit of space before firing out an awkward height incorrect weight handball, or below average strength kick.
I know he had the one kick 2 games ago to Gunston where he lowered his eyes and picked him out, but for me that's light on for highlights....

I don't see it.
I see more Vanders than Crawf.

I know you want it for the young man and for our great team, but aren't you wishing on a star?

Very well summed up, its exactly how I feel about him.

The one area I see something is his kicking for goal which appears very accurate. For his career he is 2 goals 0 behinds but I also remember some preseason games where he has been a straight kicker for goal too.

 

[JustKickIt]

Last year we lost a couple of close games in the first 4 rounds and there was a lot of whinging on here about not being able to win close games This year we have won two close ones in the same period whilst missing some really important players and giving some kids experience. Not sure why there is so much angst.

 

[Thaihawk]

Certainly didn't feel like it, came away thinking we were slaughtered in clearances.

I'm with you LuckyHawk. Those figures don't relate how the clearances identified each side, and Clarko pointed that out in his post match interview. I don't know, but I assume a clearance is credited to the club that gets the first kick or handball, whether or not the team moves that ball into their 50, or the opposition intercepts, and gets the ball into theirs.

The only game where we actually stopped the opposition from running the ball away from the centre and running or kicking the ball deep into their forward line was against the eagles, and we know how well we did then. Rough was able to create this, and we really need one or two of our younger players to step into this role. aaaabilly has the pace, so we need inside mids to get the ball out.

My views are from a long way away, and I am pretty happy sitting at 2 & 1. and expect the Saints and dogs will upset quiet a few final 4 aspirants.

 

[LuckyHawk]

I'm with you LuckyHawk. Those figures don't relate how the clearances identified each side, and Clarko pointed that out in his post match interview. I don't know, but I assume a clearance is credited to the club that gets the first kick or handball, whether or not the team moves that ball into their 50, or the opposition intercepts, and gets the ball into theirs.

The only game where we actually stopped the opposition from running the ball away from the centre and running or kicking the ball deep into their forward line was against the eagles, and we know how well we did then. Rough was able to create this, and we really need one or two of our younger players to step into this role. aaaabilly has the pace, so we need inside mids to get the ball out.

My views are from a long way away, and I am pretty happy sitting at 2 & 1. and expect the Saints and dogs will upset quiet a few final 4 aspirants.

Good post and they say stats can lie, well I think they lied yesterday.

 

[cryptor]

Bit of Shiels about JOR I reckon. In that they are sort of vanilla and don't catch your eye. Took Shiels along time to even get recogised by our supporter base for his work.

Not saying JOR is currently doing great things and we're just not noticing it. I'm saying he is probably showing little glimpses here and there and those are going missed or perhaps unappreciated.

Consider that high level disposal has been the norm from all our best 22 players over the last few years and with every second player being a genuine star of the competition it's probably hard for a bit of a vanilla looking player to grab any attention with a high quality kick or clever decision. That's just expected by us. But make any error and you bet it won't go unnoticed because it's going to stick out like a sore thumb.

 

[tige19]

Bit of Shiels about JOR I reckon. In that they are sort of vanilla and don't catch your eye. Took Shiels along time to even get recogised by our supporter base for his work.

Not saying JOR is currently doing great things and we're just not noticing it. I'm saying he is probably showing little glimpses here and there and those are going missed or perhaps unappreciated.

Consider that high level disposal has been the norm from all our best 22 players over the last few years and with every second player being a genuine star of the competition it's probably hard for a bit of a vanilla looking player to grab any attention with a high quality kick or clever decision. That's just expected by us. But make any error and you bet it won't go unnoticed because it's going to stick out like a sore thumb.

Absolutely spot on cryptor, the thing with JOR is that at junior level he was a class operator. He is very Shiels like, I do think he has a wee bit more class though, whether he has the ability to get to a consistent level and show case that I don't know.

 

[Brant]

Tige, you're a big pump-up for JOR........my problem watching him is I don't see the class, the absolute quality.
So regardless of how many games he's played, I'd expect to see in at least 1 a period where it all came together for him, and his class would show through. May be just a 10 - 15 minute period.
By class I mean it showing that the game had slowed down for him and he was able to work ahead of the moving parts around him....
Taking possession, stopping, assessing, blind turn around an incoming missile, jetting forward and setting up a teammate.
Winning a ball, stopping, playing a teammate with a perfectly looped handball 6-8 metres into space that the hawk didn't have to slow for, where the handball actually made him take the run and space.
A great mark where he outclassed his opponent.
A three bounce run, pause, and 50 meter goal making all around just watch.

I mean, you know, anything that dripped class.
I'm not expecting entire games, followed up by entire other games (though Sicily knockers seem to believe only a complete 4 quarter effort will convince them of his ability), just simply cameos where you go - oooooohhhhhh.
In his entire career, including his time with GWS, his best moments come from collecting a ball/hard ball, and accelerating into a bit of space before firing out an awkward height incorrect weight handball, or below average strength kick.
I know he had the one kick 2 games ago to Gunston where he lowered his eyes and picked him out, but for me that's light on for highlights....

I don't see it.
I see more Vanders than Crawf.

I know you want it for the young man and for our great team, but aren't you wishing on a star?

A lot of what you just said reminds me of Shiels. Shiels (from memory) was a bit quicker & probably had cleaner skills but he lived off intent/grunt & work ethic. What seems unanimous amongst fans/non-beliebers is that JO'R runs hard & does a lot of running that goes unused.

In the 5 years after he was drafted, Shiels worked terribly hard to become the player that he/we currently enjoy; perhaps not in that elite bracket but easily 'very good'. I've no reason to think that JO'R won't come on in the next few years - first as a bit player, then a 1st team regular & in time, a vital cog in the machine. I don't think he has the attributes to be a Mitchell/Burgoyne - the 360 vision with silky skills etc. - but I think he can be another Shiels.

 

[Brant]

Bit of Shiels about JOR I reckon. In that they are sort of vanilla and don't catch your eye. Took Shiels along time to even get recogised by our supporter base for his work.

Not saying JOR is currently doing great things and we're just not noticing it. I'm saying he is probably showing little glimpses here and there and those are going missed or perhaps unappreciated.

Consider that high level disposal has been the norm from all our best 22 players over the last few years and with every second player being a genuine star of the competition it's probably hard for a bit of a vanilla looking player to grab any attention with a high quality kick or clever decision. That's just expected by us. But make any error and you bet it won't go unnoticed because it's going to stick out like a sore thumb.

Hahaha

I could've saved everyone's time & not posted above, if only I'd read your post first! I think it's fair to say that I agree re: Shiels!

 

[Thaihawk]

Won't be disappointed if we win our last game we play in 2016 by under a goal.

On a side note, if you're looking for any of the BIG 4 clubs, please start your search from 12th spot on the ladder and proceed down!

 

[flinchfree]

A lot of what you just said reminds me of Shiels. Shiels (from memory) was a bit quicker & probably had cleaner skills but he lived off intent/grunt & work ethic. What seems unanimous amongst fans/non-beliebers is that JO'R runs hard & does a lot of running that goes unused.

In the 5 years after he was drafted, Shiels worked terribly hard to become the player that he/we currently enjoy; perhaps not in that elite bracket but easily 'very good'. I've no reason to think that JO'R won't come on in the next few years - first as a bit player, then a 1st team regular & in time, a vital cog in the machine. I don't think he has the attributes to be a Mitchell/Burgoyne - the 360 vision with silky skills etc. - but I think he can be another Shiels.

Completely agree.
Next question is how many Shiels can you run as part of your full time midfield?
I'd suggest only 1, and from there you need a mauler/banger bottom of the pack winner of the contested ball beast, and an elite breakneck speed see ball hit ball take ball 20 meters before you know what's happened as your third.
I can't see 2 Shiels forming a winning midfield for an elite team.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wrote this on the main board during the week, and it rang true, as predicted.

"I tip the Hawks v Saints match to be a sluggish, uninteresting scrap....like pretty much every game in Launceston where the Hawks hardly ever look interested until they realise the game isn't going to be handed to them on a platter."

No surprise that a tassie game turns out to be one that you'd not bother to watch a replay of. That describes pretty much every single one down there, most years.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Won't be disappointed if we win our last game we play in 2016 by under a goal.

On a side note, if you're looking for any of the BIG 4 clubs, please start your search from 12th spot on the ladder and proceed down!

Imagine if you came from another part of the world, trying to interest yourself in AFL, and you heard the term Big 4. What would you be thinking when you are told they are 4 clubs who rarely make the finals and have won only 1 title between the four of them in the past 15 years? Big 4

 

[Manila_Hawk]

I thought Savage played really well yesterday. Always seemed to be in the right place for the intercept mark.

 

[burger09]

Won't be disappointed if we win our last game we play in 2016 by under a goal.

On a side note, if you're looking for any of the BIG 4 clubs, please start your search from 12th spot on the ladder and proceed down!

Hah the "BIG FOUR".

About as relevant in todays footballing landscape as the place kick or flick pass

 

[Brant]

Completely agree.
Next question is how many Shiels can you run as part of your full time midfield?
I'd suggest only 1, and from there you need a mauler/banger bottom of the pack winner of the contested ball beast, and an elite breakneck speed see ball hit ball take ball 20 meters before you know what's happened as your third.
I can't see 2 Shiels forming a winning midfield for an elite team.

I know what you mean, but you've only listed 3 player-types when we rotate 10+ players through the middle. With Roughy, Rioli, Breust, Popeye, Burgoyne & I.Omith getting time in the middle (as with Lewis, Mitchell, Hodge & Shiels), we don't really play a full-time midfield.

Like most of our players do, he'll have to develop his ability to play multiple roles & I'll suggest he would have to play HFF / Wing.

 

[JustKickIt]

Imagine if you came from another part of the world, trying to interest yourself in AFL, and you heard the term Big 4. What would you be thinking when you are told they are 4 clubs who rarely make the finals and have won only 1 title between the four of them in the past 15 years? Big 4

Maybe think it's a brand of meat pie?

 

[LuckyHawk]

Tige, you're a big pump-up for JOR........my problem watching him is I don't see the class, the absolute quality.
So regardless of how many games he's played, I'd expect to see in at least 1 a period where it all came together for him, and his class would show through. May be just a 10 - 15 minute period.
By class I mean it showing that the game had slowed down for him and he was able to work ahead of the moving parts around him....
Taking possession, stopping, assessing, blind turn around an incoming missile, jetting forward and setting up a teammate.
Winning a ball, stopping, playing a teammate with a perfectly looped handball 6-8 metres into space that the hawk didn't have to slow for, where the handball actually made him take the run and space.
A great mark where he outclassed his opponent.
A three bounce run, pause, and 50 meter goal making all around just watch.

I mean, you know, anything that dripped class.
I'm not expecting entire games, followed up by entire other games (though Sicily knockers seem to believe only a complete 4 quarter effort will convince them of his ability), just simply cameos where you go - oooooohhhhhh.
In his entire career, including his time with GWS, his best moments come from collecting a ball/hard ball, and accelerating into a bit of space before firing out an awkward height incorrect weight handball, or below average strength kick.
I know he had the one kick 2 games ago to Gunston where he lowered his eyes and picked him out, but for me that's light on for highlights....

I don't see it.
I see more Vanders than Crawf.

I know you want it for the young man and for our great team, but aren't you wishing on a star?

Think you're on the money, JOR is a worker, not a star but workers are needed too if they're good enough.

 

[DrEvil_]

Cyril was terrible, played for a free every time the ball got near.

 

[PhatHQ]

Completely agree.
Next question is how many Shiels can you run as part of your full time midfield?
I'd suggest only 1, and from there you need a mauler/banger bottom of the pack winner of the contested ball beast, and an elite breakneck speed see ball hit ball take ball 20 meters before you know what's happened as your third.
I can't see 2 Shiels forming a winning midfield for an elite team.

I think a point to make is that Shiels has proven in the past that when fit he is more that capable of reaching high 20s/mid 30s consistently when released to find his own footy. I considered him to be in the class of say Sidebottom, Shuey, Reddin type of player that is not a AA but an A grade talent who when are not on ball they are played on a fwd flank or a wing on rotation. His role has defined him to this point but I have no doubt that he is a player to build around ( as yourself & others already know).
JOR is a MK2 version. His progression should be measured at the end of the season after sufficient time in the seniors. He definatly has some poise in traffic (but a s#%t handball) & a really nice kick. I'd love to see him get at least 5 tackles a game but I get the feeling his instruction is to be that outside runner as a part of his development. I see his position as an inside/outside mid who gets his relief on the flank or wing but I think that with the attributes that he has he might be a sneaky chance to slot in as a change up with Breust in the forward line.
His best work to date is in close & a bit of front & square in contested situations. If he can develop a bit of forward polish in his game I think that his chances of success at Hawthorn greatly increase.
In the short term his presents & attack on the footy need to replicate that of Langford because I see him as the direct replacement for Lewis long term or injury.

 

[savagelunchbox]

The JOR and Shiels comparisons are so far off. I can't believe some of you are making that comparison.

Shiels has a highly active defensive side to his game. JOR has none, nil, zero and nothing. That's why an inside mid in JOR was playing on the wing last week when the game was in the balance and McEvoy was getting thrashed in the center. Hawthorn needed mids who could do the defensive.

 

[Davo23]

Back at the G next week. Despite having won the past 15 or 16 games there, that ground more often than not produces scrappy footy. We've had some big wins there but it rarely comes from good clean footy. Is it ever not windy there??

I don't know what it is about Launceston, it seem a damn big ground, it seems as big as the MCG but it always produces crowded, hectic games. There's very little open play.

I've been there a few times and have not been able to figure it out: is it the fact that other teams crowd our forward line? Or because we play lower teams down there and they come for a scrap?



Please note: I didn't criticise the weather ...