NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

I assume youd throw away a career, legacy and millions of dollars admitting guilt over something you didnt do.

To be the bigger, racist, person.

No.

I don't think he is racist. But I do think that there's a very, very strong possibility that he is capable is being racially insensitive without realising it.

IMO, from the limited details I have on this matter, that is clearly what happened.

As I said on day one - if you admit that and apologise, everyone just moves on.

If you deny it, you run the risk of becoming a 'powerful white guy' that can decide for an indigenous person what is racist and what isn't.

And, that's pretty much what happened.

And, from reports, he actually did apologise and concede in the recent mediation. IMO, he left it roo late.


He's damaged his own reputation.

 

[HairyO]

No.

I don't think he is racist. But I do think that there's a very, very strong possibility that he is capable is being racially insensitive without realising it.

IMO, from the limited details I have on this matter, that is clearly what happened.

As I said on day one - if you admit that and apologise, everyone just moves on.

If you deny it, you run the risk of becoming a 'powerful white guy' that can decide for an indigenous person what is racist and what isn't.

And, that's pretty much what happened.

And, from reports, he actually did apologise and concede in the recent mediation. IMO, he left it roo late.


He's damaged his own reputation.

The players dont want to hear that the coaches may have been insensitive. They want the coaches to admit that it was racist. There has never been a middle ground. There never will be. If it goes to court there will be a finding one way or another.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

The players dont want to hear that the coaches may have been insensitive. They want the coaches to admit that it was racist. There has never been a middle ground. There never will be. If it goes to court there will be a finding one way or another.

I don't think that's true at all.

 

[HairyO]

I don't think that's true at all.

Its what all the reporting has been from the very beginning. The starting point for the players is acknowledgement of racist behaviour.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Its what all the reporting has been from the very beginning. The starting point for the players is acknowledgement of racist behaviour.

But that's the point isn't it? The players clearly felt that they were the victims of racist behaviour.

Someone being racially insensitive, is literally when you do shit that someone feels is racist - but you weren't intentionally being racist at all.

Why is so hard to apologise for that?

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

But that's the point isn't it? The players clearly felt that they were the victims of racist behaviour.

Someone being racially insensitive, is literally when you do shit that someone feels is racist - but you weren't intentionally being racist at all.

Why is so hard to apologise for that?

A counter argument could be; the players ‘felt’ that the way they were treated was racist and subsequently made accusations of racism against three of their former colleagues. However, despite their feelings, no proven incidents of racism had taken place.

If Clarkson, Fagan and Burt have had unproven accusations levelled against them that have caused severe mental and reputational harm to them, their families and clubs, why SHOULD they have to apologise for that?

 

[brmi]

But that's the point isn't it? The players clearly felt that they were the victims of racist behaviour.

Someone being racially insensitive, is literally when you do shit that someone feels is racist - but you weren't intentionally being racist at all.

Why is so hard to apologise for that?

Where do we draw the line on apologies for something someone has taken offence to then?

 

[ChairmanZia]

Im glad this goes to the court and not some other human rights tribunal lynch mob gathering.

In the court of the law, the legal system will decide.

The last thing clarkson needs is a bunch of disgruntled ex popping up to hogging the limelight and sling mud at the coach during the season when they are trying to get the team to improve.

Take it to the court, annihilate the legitamacy of the accusers and the report. Phil egan is a corrupt scammer who stole money from the aboriginal community thus the entire report can be discredited due to the criminal nature of the author.

Im sick and tired of these disgruntled types trying to settle some scores for the perceived 'racism' they have received in that they were expected to perform at elite level meaning their lives had to change drastically. To be successful at the highest level, a lot of sacrifices need to happen, certain 'friends' need to go, certain habit must disappear.

Clarkson fagan made these player stars and now they turn around to accuse him of all people. No wonder aborigine drafting numbers are falling each year in recent time.

 

[ChairmanZia]

But that's the point isn't it? The players clearly felt that they were the victims of racist behaviour.

Someone being racially insensitive, is literally when you do shit that someone feels is racist - but you weren't intentionally being racist at all.

Why is so hard to apologise for that?

Im sorry, racially insensitive and being racist are two completely different things.

You greet someone from asian and you shake hands, that can be seen as racially insensitev as we bow.

You enter the mosque without removing your hat, that's racially/culturally insensitve.

To be racist is to deny people the right based on their race.

Why should anyone apologise when no one had done the wrong thing. The law does not care about your feeling.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

But that's the point isn't it? The players clearly felt that they were the victims of racist behaviour.

Someone being racially insensitive, is literally when you do shit that someone feels is racist - but you weren't intentionally being racist at all.

Why is so hard to apologise for that?

With all due respect (and this is not directed at you specifically because im sure hundreds of thousands of people have the same mistaken reasoning here that you do) if you actually to have to ask that question it illustrates what is wrong with both our education systems and media including social media. We dont teach logical reasoning and we dont give people the tools to separate emotions from fact.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Im glad this goes to the court and not some other human rights tribunal lynch mob gathering.

In the court of the law, the legal system will decide.

The last thing clarkson needs is a bunch of disgruntled ex popping up to hogging the limelight and sling mud at the coach during the season when they are trying to get the team to improve.

Take it to the court, annihilate the legitamacy of the accusers and the report. Phil egan is a corrupt scammer who stole money from the aboriginal community thus the entire report can be discredited due to the criminal nature of the author.

Im sick and tired of these disgruntled types trying to settle some scores for the perceived 'racism' they have received in that they were expected to perform at elite level meaning their lives had to change drastically. To be successful at the highest level, a lot of sacrifices need to happen, certain 'friends' need to go, certain habit must disappear.

Clarkson fagan made these player stars and now they turn around to accuse him of all people. No wonder aborigine drafting numbers are falling each year in recent time.

What is an Aborigine? Maybe take your head out of you know where and listen and learn.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Im sorry, racially insensitive and being racist are two completely different things.

You greet someone from asian and you shake hands, that can be seen as racially insensitev as we bow.

You enter the mosque without removing your hat, that's racially/culturally insensitve.

To be racist is to deny people the right based on their race.

Why should anyone apologise when no one had done the wrong thing. The law does not care about your feeling.

How the hell do you know what happened? How the hell do you know who did the right or wrong thing?

 

[HairyO]

How the hell do you know what happened? How the hell do you know who did the right or wrong thing?

Coming from someone who decided the coaches were guilty before even finishing reading the ABC article...

 

[South of the Yarra]

Coming from someone who decided the coaches were guilty before even finishing reading the ABC article...

Absolute rubbish

 

[ChairmanZia]

What is an Aborigine? Maybe take your head out of you know where and listen and learn.

lol, your reply tells me everything i need to know about you, good day.

 

[ChairmanZia]

How the hell do you know what happened? How the hell do you know who did the right or wrong thing?

Exactly, how the HELL do you KNOW what HAPPENED?

Just based on that line, you probably are of the position that the 3 are guilty of racism after reading the ABC headlines and then some social media lynch mob commentariees.

Guess what, we are going to fed court with legal teams and a kangaroo court stacked with aboriginal advocates who are essentially highly paid elitist social justice peddling actors for their own benefits.

In a court of law, there are proper proceedings. Clarkson and co, hawthorn fc can and will use the phil egan criminal case to totally deligitimaise this case and then slid some mud on the characters of the accusers making them looking like the ungrateful people.

The end result will be the increased difficulty of drafting players of aborigine background due to perceived extra baggage thus making many clubs not bother at all (this is actually already happening).

 

[South of the Yarra]

lol, your reply tells me everything i need to know about you, good day.

Maybe start using terminology that is not offensive to many Aboriginal people.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Exactly, how the HELL do you KNOW what HAPPENED?

Just based on that line, you probably are of the position that the 3 are guilty of racism after reading the ABC headlines and then some social media lynch mob commentariees.

Guess what, we are going to fed court with legal teams and a kangaroo court stacked with aboriginal advocates who are essentially highly paid elitist social justice peddling actors for their own benefits.

In a court of law, there are proper proceedings. Clarkson and co, hawthorn fc can and will use the phil egan criminal case to totally deligitimaise this case and then slid some mud on the characters of the accusers making them looking like the ungrateful people.

The end result will be the increased difficulty of drafting players of aborigine background due to perceived extra baggage thus making many clubs not bother at all (this is actually already happening).

This really is a special kind of anti Aboriginal post. Ooo legal teams, that must be scary to Aboriginal people.

‘a kangaroo court stacked with aboriginal advocates who are essentially highly paid elitist social justice peddling actors for their own benefits.’

That is just a really naive or ridiculous comment. Not sure which on. And I will ask again, stop using the word Aborigine.

 

[sr36]

Im sorry, racially insensitive and being racist are two completely different things.

You greet someone from asian and you shake hands, that can be seen as racially insensitev as we bow.

You enter the mosque without removing your hat, that's racially/culturally insensitve.

To be racist is to deny people the right based on their race.

Why should anyone apologise when no one had done the wrong thing. The law does not care about your feeling.

There are multiple levels and forms of racism.

 

[perplexed]

This really is a special kind of anti Aboriginal post. Ooo legal teams, that must be scary to Aboriginal people.

‘a kangaroo court stacked with aboriginal advocates who are essentially highly paid elitist social justice peddling actors for their own benefits.’

That is just a really naive or ridiculous comment. Not sure which on. And I will ask again, stop using the word Aborigine.

They are a special kind of poster. They seem to be polluting every thread on BF at the moment with their bizarre takes. For a while I thought it was an elaborate troll. Sadly, like the poster themselves, the explanation is much simpler.

 

[Back One Out]

The end result will be the increased difficulty of drafting players of aborigine background due to perceived extra baggage thus making many clubs not bother at all (this is actually already happening).

Of course this will be the end result.

Matthew Rendell highlighted this years ago while working as the Adelaide Crows recruiting manager. For spelling out the obvious, he was branded as racist and sacked (forced to resign) by Andy Demetriou and the Crows CEO Stephen Trigg

You have to ask yourself: Why would any coach waste their time, or risk their career and livelihood by going out on a limb trying to help young wayward, uncommitted, unprofessional indigenous footballers who are barely worthy of a spot on the list and who don't turn up to training sessions? I'm talking about the rookie picks like Carl Peterson and Jermaine Miller-Lewis who were going to be delisted anyway. These guys were the 43rd 44th players on Hawthorn's list. We're not talking about the Cyril's or Buddy's.

The end result is indigenous players on the fringes will not be given the same opportunities as other players of similar ability because they'll be categorised (fairly or unfairly) as being in the "too hard" basket.

"But but but but that's RACIST!!!!"

Yeah, it is... But look at what has happened to the well-meaning coaches who are now being accused of "racial insensitivity"

It's just easier to draft the equally-talented kid from the local area who you know will fit in better to the team environment and adjust more easily to the rigours of AFL professionalism rather than taking a punt on the indigenous kid from the remote community who doesn't speak English as a first language, who is thousands of miles away from his friends and family and requires full-time handlers to help him off the field, as well as on the field.

This is precisely why many VFL clubs (including Hawthorn) avoided recruiting aboriginal players for many, many years.
(Not because they were all secretly-racist, card-carrying members of the KKK.)

 

[phantom13]

Exactly, how the HELL do you KNOW what HAPPENED?

Just based on that line, you probably are of the position that the 3 are guilty of racism after reading the ABC headlines and then some social media lynch mob commentariees.

Guess what, we are going to fed court with legal teams and a kangaroo court stacked with aboriginal advocates who are essentially highly paid elitist social justice peddling actors for their own benefits.

In a court of law, there are proper proceedings. Clarkson and co, hawthorn fc can and will use the phil egan criminal case to totally deligitimaise this case and then slid some mud on the characters of the accusers making them looking like the ungrateful people.

The end result will be the increased difficulty of drafting players of aborigine background due to perceived extra baggage thus making many clubs not bother at all (this is actually already happening).

Its pure speculation on all fronts here but it seems pretty likely to me that regardless of the outcome of the court case the damage, rightly or wrongly has been done in court of public opinion.

Even in the event hes exonerated in the court case its pretty likely that many who hear the detail will still think he did some racist (or at least racially insensitive) shit.

I think the point Lavender Bushranger is making is that he could have listened, accepted what he did and how it was taken, apologised and tried to improve himself he could have actually quashed the whole thing before it happened.

Now MAYBE the players wouldnt have accepted that and MAYBE they wanted their pound of flesh but we dont really know. In my experience with this, accepting you may have been ignorant and offended or upset someone, listen to their concerns and accept them (pending what they are) it usually results in people understanding you and you understanding them.

Instead this looks alot like another wealthy older white man using the same old infrastructure to escape their own actions and drag a marginalised minority through the ringer.

Short of the court case finding that every claim was complete fabricated and Clarko wasnt even there, this and his looooong list of other shit makes alot of people think he almost certainly did some shit here.

 

[JackOutback]

Take it to the court, annihilate the legitamacy of the accusers and the report.

This has been the modus operandi of abusers for more than a century, not sure I'd be using it as a template.

 

[Cyclops]

The way Hawthorn set up its own investigation does not seem to have provided a good outcome.

My own club has a racist past so it's quite plausible Hawthorn does too.

However we seem to have achieved some positive outcomes. They way three ex-Hawthorn people have been spotlit, the way accounts were gathered, the way no real outcome was produced and the way it was leaked are all very strange.

Most bizarre of all is the way Jeff Kennett is somehow not being looked at. The man has presented as a very compromised figure and his infamous abuse of indigenous players partner has been a sore point for indigenous players, but it simply hasn't been addressed, aside from a dismissive "it was a joke bro".

I feel as though Hawthorn and it's ex coaches are being torched here to keep the spotlight off Kennett.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The way Hawthorn set up its own investigation does not seem to have provided a good outcome.

My own club has a racist past so it's quite plausible Hawthorn does too.

However we seem to have achieved some positive outcomes. They way three ex-Hawthorn people have been spotlit, the way accounts were gathered, the way no real outcome was produced and the way it was leaked are all very strange.

Most bizarre of all is the way Jeff Kennett is somehow not being looked at. The man has presented as a very compromised figure and his infamous abuse of indigenous players partner has been a sore point for indigenous players, but it simply hasn't been addressed, aside from a dismissive "it was a joke bro".

I feel as though Hawthorn and it's ex coaches are being torched here to keep the spotlight off Kennett.

You know that Jeff Kennett was one of the primary movers of the recent ( failed ) referendum.
I believe it was a joke , it seems obvious, and not an offensive one.
All the reasons for why it should have been considered offensive don't stack up.

If you take that simple incident and try to make some sort of discrimination charge out of it, you will fail dismally and utterly.
The laws simply don't work that way.