NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[phantom13]

What do you mean by reputation damaged? I think you're using an unusual definition.

You claimed early that Pauline Hansen has a reputation for being racist but it hasn't damaged her reputation.

As a result of her reputation, she's received decades of scorn, ridicule, dislike, hate mail.

What meets your damaged reputation test?

Look the Pauline Hanson example was a bad one, I acknowledge that, I was probably trying to point out that she isn’t exactly struggling in her public career she’s asked to be on prominent televisions shows and provide commentary on political discussions in spite of being a pretty well known racist. Nobody cares.

The Collingwood examples, to me at least, prove that instances of racism reallt don’t wind up having any long term effects for those who did them. Buckley and Maguire in particular in my opinion have suffered no reputational damage in spite of a number of claims being essentially accepted as true, Eddie also had the Goodes radio gaffe.

Now obviously if we’re talking about the abortion claim or some other particularly egregious claims then they likely will suffer some reputational damage but I can’t think of anything in the report (except the abortion) that will result in that.

Again, I’m clearly on my own here and I accept that, I’m also certainly not saying I’m factually and beyond reproach correct, I just think that, abortion claim aside, this whole thing will result in most people saying the instances were racist acts, or culturally insensitive acts, not comitted by inherently racist people, that the club and all individuals will learn from.

 

[sr36]

Look the Pauline Hanson example was a bad one, I acknowledge that, I was probably trying to point out that she isn’t exactly struggling in her public career she’s asked to be on prominent televisions shows and provide commentary on political discussions in spite of being a pretty well known racist. Nobody cares.

The Collingwood examples, to me at least, prove that instances of racism reallt don’t wind up having any long term effects for those who did them. Buckley and Maguire in particular in my opinion have suffered no reputational damage in spite of a number of claims being essentially accepted as true, Eddie also had the Goodes radio gaffe.

Now obviously if we’re talking about the abortion claim or some other particularly egregious claims then they likely will suffer some reputational damage but I can’t think of anything in the report (except the abortion) that will result in that.

Again, I’m clearly on my own here and I accept that, I’m also certainly not saying I’m factually and beyond reproach correct, I just think that, abortion claim aside, this whole thing will result in most people saying the instances were racist acts, or culturally insensitive acts, not comitted by inherently racist people, that the club and all individuals will learn from.

That might be the long term outcome. But to damage a reputation, it doesn't have to permanent irreversible damage. Heaps of reputations get damaged and then repaired. Who doesn't love a redemption song?

 

[Elixuh]

Look I still really can’t think of a single example of someone in recent history to have seriously suffered reputational damage from a racism claim but I also don’t think it’s worth pursuing, I’m clearly on my own and that’s fine. I still think the ongoing focus on a defamation lawsuit is a pointless one but I’ve also posted way way too much in this thread and I’m contributing nothing anymore.

Isn’t the most basic example, Clarkson was refused service at a petrol station because of the allegations.

 

[corporal]

This post is just bizare.

Its all very odd!

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Whether accusations are true, false or somewhere in between not not sure how anyone could argue Alistair Clarkson hasn't suffered reputational damage.

The mental gymnastics required to justify that he hasn't are actually making my head hurt!

It's about a clear a case of reputational damage/defamation that you are likely to see, textbook stuff.

I really am waiting to see what Clarkson's next move is going to be. If he does indeed take the step of going after the ABC/HFC/players for defamation this whole thing will totally blow up even more.

I think it's going to come down to Alistair having to decide whether he wants some of his more "out there" behaviour being made public in order to clear his name of being a racist.

I honestly think it's 50/50 at this stage.

 

[blackshadow]

The mental gymnastics required to justify that he hasn't are actually making my head hurt!

It's about a clear a case of reputational damage/defamation that you are likely to see, textbook stuff.

I really am waiting to see what Clarkson's next move is going to be. If he does indeed take the step of going after the ABC/HFC/players for defamation this whole thing will totally blow up even more.

I think it's going to come down to Alistair having to decide whether he wants some of his more "out there" behaviour being made public in order to clear his name of being a racist.

I honestly think it's 50/50 at this stage.

That lines up exactly what I’ve been told re Clarko.

He’s 100% certain his name will be cleared of any wrongdoing concerning the allegations that have been made against him. In doing so it’s likely that there will be a lot of other less than positive stuff that will come out about him and the accusers in the process and he’s is uncertain of whether he wants to drag everything up.

 

[perplexed]

That lines up exactly what I’ve been told re Clarko.

He’s 100% certain his name will be cleared of any wrongdoing concerning the allegations that have been made against him. In doing so it’s likely that there will be a lot of other less than positive stuff that will come out about him and the accusers in the process and he’s is uncertain of whether he wants to drag everything up.

In which case it would make sense to only sue the ABC / Jackson as they won't have the same dirt on him that Hawthorn and the players would.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

In which case it would make sense to only sue the ABC / Jackson as they won't have the same dirt on him that Hawthorn and the players would.

Yes and also i doubt the players will front up to court and go through cross examination to verify the stories printed in that article to save Jackson's butt.

Plus ABC have deep tax payer funded pockets......

 

[BobHawk]

Isn’t the most basic example, Clarkson was refused service at a petrol station because of the allegations.

Very much doubt that this is true.

 

[buttermuffs]

Very much doubt that this is true.

I believe it was brought up by Jordan Lewis just after Clarkson took leave. It apparently happened very close to after the allegations came out last year. I see no reason why it’s not true but I think there’s going to have to be more instances than a one off to show a clearer picture.

 

[sr36]

Yes and also i doubt the players will front up to court and go through cross examination to verify the stories printed in that article to save Jackson's butt.

Plus ABC have deep tax payer funded pockets......

From what I've been told, it's more complicated than just was there reputational damage and was it probably true, as the ABC were reporting on the contents of an official review.

 

[r_boy]

From what I've been told, it's more complicated than just was there reputational damage and was it probably true, as the ABC were reporting on the contents of an official review.

So it was leaked?

 

[sr36]

So it was leaked?

Read the opening of the ABC report, it talks of what will appear in the Hawthorn review. Whether the actual report was leaked to them is more unknown, but it's always been clear that its contents was.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

From what I've been told, it's more complicated than just was there reputational damage and was it probably true, as the ABC were reporting on the contents of an official review.

I think though that defence won't help the the ABC as Egan's review was pretty basic and didn't follow proper investigative protocols (i.e didn't interview the three accused to get their side of the story, didn't seek to factually verify the players stories, etc).

It would be different if the three accused were being investigated/charged by VIC Police as the ABC could report on that safe in the knowledge that proper legal protocols were being followed.

In essence it is true that Egan's review was official in that it was commissioned by the HFC but the review itself was of such an unusual nature I don't think it will offer the ABC any legal protection.

 

[perplexed]

From what I've been told, it's more complicated than just was there reputational damage and was it probably true, as the ABC were reporting on the contents of an official review.

I think that the ABC would be unlikely to try and show that the allegations themselves are true. Jackson simply hadn't had the time or done the work to verify this. They would argue that they were correctly reporting on the existence and contents of the Hawthorn Review and interviewing players who took part in it.

I'm not sure how well this would fly.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

I think that the ABC would be unlikely to try and show that the allegations themselves are true. Jackson simply hadn't had the time or done the work to verify this. They would argue that they were correctly reporting on the existence and contents of the Hawthorn Review and interviewing players who took part in it.

I'm not sure how well this would fly.

If they had of just reported that the Review existed and general outline on what it was investigating the ABC would be okay.

But they directly named Clarkson, Fagan and Burt which to my mind elevates it to a whole other level regarding the ABCs requirement to ensure the accuracy of what they printed.

That's a total layman's take on this but I think it makes sense.

 

[Chief]

If they had of just reported that the Review existed and general outline on what it was investigating the ABC would be okay.

But they directly named Clarkson, Fagan and Burt which to my mind elevates it to a whole other level regarding the ABCs requirement to ensure the accuracy of what they printed.

That's a total layman's take on this but I think it makes sense.

With multiple people telling the same story it's not too hard to see why the story was published.

 

[Elixuh]

What time period did rhe review cover? Or was it open ended but only ended up speaking to players who played for Hawthorn during Clarksons tenure (not that it was linked to that)?

 

[Mitchell Madness]

What time period did rhe review cover? Or was it open ended but only ended up speaking to players who played for Hawthorn during Clarksons tenure (not that it was linked to that)?

It was supposed to cover Cyril Riolis time at the hawks (08-16) but supposedly evey indigenous player was asked to participate, so who know

 

[The Gulden Child]

I feel like with some other stories like Mitchell there’s every chance it could come to the resolution of being insensitive rather than fully racist. However, I still feel like their accused actions were a gross overreach of their position and shouldn’t be accepted. On top of everything, I’d love to see some greater education for players and possibly also the coaches about what is and isn’t acceptable to be asked from you from your superiors (workplace wise, not race wise).

The club and their staff need to realise the effect of power dynamics in the relationships they have with players, as simple advice from a position of power always can be interpreted as implicit demands and suggested actions. I get that some players and some coaches are close but the coaches should always know when to step back and say ‘I can’t give you my advice or opinion’.

In addition to this, players need to be aware of what is and isn’t acceptable and when someone is possibly abusing their position of power against them. It shouldn’t take the players half a decade to come to the conclusion that having coaches coming to your house to help break up with your partner is not acceptable, or that a coach should ever be bringing up the possibility of abortion.

Even in the WNBA, a coach was suspended due to suggesting a player wasn’t showing enough commitment when they decided to take an unplanned second pregnancy to term. It is not acceptable workplace behaviour and I’m sick of hearing ‘but football requires sacrifices’.

Love this. I was barred from the Hawthorn thread on this topic for posting similar i.e. not really seeing any latent racism. I agree, possibly over reach. I have not been back here for over a week or so.

I am an Indigenous woman from the Bundjanlung people (NSW/QLD). My ancestry is also Pacific Islander. The men in my family tree were 'blackbirded' (slaves) brought over to work in the sugarcane fields in QLD, from Vanuatu. I have a deep understanding of 'real' racism.

Being ex NSW I love my Swannies but live in a household of mad Hawks and have a real soft spot for them. The tanking and racism debate have been hot topics at home. Sydney, news wise (excepting my beautiful Buddy) have been a bit quiet/meh this year. This did not stop a few (probably middle aged white men) on the Hawks board singling me out for a 'lecture' on racism when I questioned the situations of those having the grievance.

Overreach absolutely, it appears imo.

I would not be surprised if they come for me again but am prepared to make a formal complaint if necessary and can prove my indigenous status if required. They need to realise there are all walks of life posting openly and honestly on this board and without malice. Not sure if I will stay after this experience.

 

[the big lebowski]

It was supposed to cover Cyril Riolis time at the hawks (08-16) but supposedly evey indigenous player was asked to participate, so who know

Rioli retired in 2018 and the incident with Kennett happened in 2017.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Rioli retired in 2018 and the incident with Kennett happened in 2017.

Ah, it was 18.
Same applies. Was supposed to cover his time at the club

 

[South of the Yarra]

Love this. I was barred from the Hawthorn thread on this topic for posting similar i.e. not really seeing any latent racism. I agree, possibly over reach. I have not been back here for over a week or so.

I am an Indigenous woman from the Bundjanlung people (NSW/QLD). My ancestry is also Pacific Islander. The men in my family tree were 'blackbirded' (slaves) brought over to work in the sugarcane fields in QLD, from Vanuatu. I have a deep understanding of 'real' racism.

Being ex NSW I love my Swannies but live in a household of mad Hawks and have a real soft spot for them. The tanking and racism debate have been hot topics at home. Sydney, news wise (excepting my beautiful Buddy) have been a bit quiet/meh this year. This did not stop a few (probably middle aged white men) on the Hawks board singling me out for a 'lecture' on racism when I questioned the situations of those having the grievance.

Overreach absolutely, it appears imo.

I would not be surprised if they come for me again but am prepared to make a formal complaint if necessary and can prove my indigenous status if required. They need to realise there are all walks of life posting openly and honestly on this board and without malice. Not sure if I will stay after this experience.

Stay strong sis. Always was. Always will be. Bundjanlung people are good people. Beautiful country

 

[South of the Yarra]

The Gulden Child campbell ferball
Taking the littlest one in our care back home to country today. Going to be a very special weekend.

 

[peetoo]

It’s all gone quiet, probably as planned