NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

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[Strapping Young Lad]

Cyril isnt the head of the report and wasnt the blocker in this case

The situation is. Clarkson and Fagan are telling the truth when they say they were blocked from contributing to the investigation and Cyril is telling the truth when he says he wanted them to be involved

Its the 3rd party who caused the situation. Said 3rd party is looking at prison time.... so maybe the third party is more of a issue here then people want to admit?

Pardon?

They were not blocked from anything. They chose to not meet for mediation.
They chose to not engage in Jackson’s queries before publication.

As for declaring Egan has anything to do with Clarkson, Fagan and Burt not involving themselves in the investigation, well that’s quite ridiculous.

 

[apollo_creed]

That's not the question. If he's charged then they are likely to be confident he did what they say he did, specially given the public visibility.

So my question is: Do you think the content of the document is false? Do you think the statements in there were not made by the people he says made them?

Well yes in my mind it does. How the information was sourced, how the sources were led to the outcome, what level of investigation there was for all aspects (credibility of the accusers). If an individual has a predisposition towards a particular outcome then that does impact all aspects of conduct. And while there were questions levelled at the investigation from the start, these latest developments further credential those arguments.

 

[Chief]

Well yes in my mind it does. How the information was sourced, how the sources were led to the outcome, what level of investigation there was for all aspects (credibility of the accusers). If an individual has a predisposition towards a particular outcome then that does impact all aspects of conduct. And while there were questions levelled at the investigation from the start, these latest developments further credential those arguments.

None of the people have come out and said they were misrepresented. There is also the fact that it wasn't a full investigation.

I can see how there might have been a spin on it but still, none of the people who made statements have disagreed with it, that I know of.

Then there is the subsequent investigation for people to tell their story.

Had it been just him, with no investigation or third parties, you'd have a point. I just don't see an angle where anyone was shown to be misquoted.

 

[phantom13]

They were 100% blocked from contributing due to the unreasonable demands set by Egan and co. They had zero intention of involving them which is why they kept rejecting any questions or guidelines to setting up the mediation meeting. Continuously moving goal posts and saying "they are not meeting my moving goal posts" is the oldest trick in the book. One I see right through

Cant move Egan out of the investigation now it doesnt suit the agenda im afraid. He is a big part of it. Reality and truth prevents that from being a thing

You can’t say they were “blocked” then state it was due to “unreasonable demands” that’s all editorializing.

The “unreasonable demands” stuff has been debunked numerous times as well.

They chose not to be involved, which is absolutely their right (and almost certainly the advice they were given by lawyers) but they were not blocked.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

You can’t say they were “blocked” then state it was due to “unreasonable demands” that’s all editorializing.

The “unreasonable demands” stuff has been debunked numerous times as well.

They chose not to be involved, which is absolutely their right (and almost certainly the advice they were given by lawyers) but they were not blocked.

Editorializing is a new one.

Unreasonable demands is 100% debunked.... so why didnt Burton and co actually let them have their demands? Ill let you get to that answer yourself

They wanted to be involved. Its Burton who didnt want them too. Thats the reality

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

None of the people have come out and said they were misrepresented. There is also the fact that it wasn't a full investigation.

I can see how there might have been a spin on it but still, none of the people who made statements have disagreed with it, that I know of.

Then there is the subsequent investigation for people to tell their story.

Had it been just him, with no investigation or third parties, you'd have a point. I just don't see an angle where anyone was shown to be misquoted.

How can you say you were misrepresented when you were never told how you were represented?

The idea Clarkson and Fagan are meant to debunk a set of events when they dont know the events they were accused of is absurd

 

[Chief]

Editorializing is a new one.

Unreasonable demands is 100% debunked.... so why didnt Burton and co actually let them have their demands? Ill let you get to that answer yourself

They wanted to be involved. Its Burton who didnt want them too. Thats the reality

What was Fagan's legal action about?

 

[Chief]

How can you say you were misrepresented when you were never told how you were represented?

I read Egan's report. Didn't you? Do you think the players and spouses didn't read it?

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

What was Fagan's legal action about?

Getting information that was being withheld from him for absolutely no reason first and foremost. Anything else is editorialising as we say here

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

I read Egan's report. Didn't you? Do you think the players and spouses didn't read it?

Egans report lacked substance. Its why we are here today isnt it?

If the report was actually worthy and filled with evidence/proof/clear clarifications then the discission isnt happening.

Perhaps the fact his report was poor is why we are here? and Perhaps the fact his report is poor is because he was unqualified for the job. If he was qualified he wouldnt have 70 odd charges against his name when its all said and done

 

[Chief]

absolutely no reason

That seems like it's your interpretation.

I would have to go back and have a look - the details are really just old news now for me.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

That seems like it's your interpretation.

I would have to go back and have a look - the details are really just old news now for me.

Theirs never ever a good reason to withhold the truth that can be proven with ease

You only withold information when you think it can be proven wrong

 

[phantom13]

Editorializing is a new one.

Unreasonable demands is 100% debunked.... so why didnt Burton and co actually let them have their demands? Ill let you get to that answer yourself

They wanted to be involved. Its Burton who didnt want them too. Thats the reality

Not really.

You’re putting your position that the demands were unreasonable and hence they were “blocked”.

Doing that factually would be to say “they determined that the demands were unreasonable and thus no longer wanted to be involved”.

They were never blocked which is a pretty important part of your argument and that’s ignoring that this whole “list of demands” thing got rebuked and debunked by a few different sources.

 

[Chief]

Egans report lacked substance. Its why we are here today isnt it?

If the report was actually worthy and filled with evidence/proof/clear clarifications then the discission isnt happening.

That's not what it was for. Not what he was asked to do. This should really have been settled with everyone by now.

SUBSEQUENT processes would be for gathering evidence, more statements and so on. Actual investigations.

 

[Gralin]

Anytime I open this thread and check in on the discussion.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

Absolute rubbish.

Egan presented a report to Hawthorn of the statements made by the players regarding their experiences at Hawthorn.

He had no involvement from that point forward.

To continue to state he blocked the coaches from the investigation is just a blatant lie.

Can you point me to the part in his report where he let Clarkson and Fagan give their evidence please ?

Please dont tell me Egan didnt block them when he clearly did . Stop lieing when its so easily proven wrong

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

That's not what it was for. Not what he was asked to do. This should really have been settled with everyone by now.

SUBSEQUENT processes would be for gathering evidence, more statements and so on. Actual investigations.

Fair pont re : he might have been told not to do it by higher ups.

Subsequent processes and actual investigation needs to occur BEFORE the allegations are released. Not doing this was negligence.

Egan could be the fall guy for someone else I suppose

 

[FlyHigh18]

Bloke's literally been charged with using falsified documents, getting cash through secret commissions and deceiving ppl
Yet ppl still trying to treat him with some sort of respect, as if what he jots down should be treated as gospel

oH nAh ThAt waS diFFerent

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Can you point me to the part in his report where he let Clarkson and Fagan give their evidence please ?

Please dont tell me Egan didnt block them when he clearly did . Stop lieing when its so easily proven wrong

Just as I thought you are conflating two completely separate things.

Egan did not ask the coaches for their side of the story, because that was never part of his remit.

Egan was asked to go and interview the ex-players of their experiences while at Hawthorn to get clarity around the Rioli families claims that were published in the AGE.

He did not block them. He did not make demands of them. He had nothing to do with the AFL investigation or the planned mediation sessions that the coaches refused to be a part of.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

Just as I thought you are conflating two completely separate things.

Egan did not ask the coaches for their side of the story, because that was never part of his remit.

Egan was asked to go and interview the ex-players of their experiences while at Hawthorn to get clarity around the Rioli families claims that were published in the AGE.

He did not block them. He did not make demands of them. He had nothing to do with the AFL investigation or the planned mediation sessions that the coaches refused to be a part of.

Im saying they were blocked on both sides of the investigation. Hawthorns as well as the AFLs .... That is clearly the case.

 

[VinnieB]

From everything I read they asked for a copy of the report, completely unredacted with names and allegations coupled and were told that wouldn’t be provided. This was their request to be involved in mediation. When they were told that wouldn’t be provided they refused to be involved in the mediation process. We discussed this at length some pages back (mostly around a disagreement on opinion about whether they should or shouldn’t have been willing to engage in the mediation process).

I think most can see why the complaininants were unwilling to furnish the report and most can see why they didn’t want to engage in mediation.

I’m not aware at all of them being told they weren’t required anymore. As someone else linked Cyril Rioli at a minimum just wanted to discuss the incidents with Fagan, Clarkson etc .

I’m probably completely off here, but why doesn’t Rioli simply call them?
From my understanding, Clarkson has reached out to Cyril in the past.
If all they want is to be heard and hear Clarkson and Fagan’s truth, why does it need to be in such a formal setting?

It just doesn’t sound that simple and obviously a lot more to it. Cyril says it’s not about compensation. In my opinion, it’s without a doubt part of it.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Bloke's literally been charged with using falsified documents, getting cash through secret commissions and deceiving ppl
Yet ppl still trying to treat him with some sort of respect, as if what he jots down should be treated as gospel

oH nAh ThAt waS diFFerent

You have to be pretty special to think that Egan’s history means that the players he spoke to and have since re-told their stories are all lying.

 

[FlyHigh18]

You have to be pretty special to think that Egan’s history means that the players he spoke to and have since re-told their stories are all lying.

He's a literal fraudster

An independent panel lead by a QC spent months and couldn't even find anything substantial

Cling on harder mate

 

[phantom13]

I’m probably completely off here, but why doesn’t Rioli simply call them?
From my understanding, Clarkson has reached out to Cyril in the past.
If all they want is to be heard and hear Clarkson and Fagan’s truth, why does it need to be in such a formal setting?

It just doesn’t sound that simple and obviously a lot more to it. Cyril says it’s not about compensation. In my opinion, it’s without a doubt part of it.

I think once it became part of the investigation and others got involved it would be ill advised to do it that way.

It’s also not really on a victim to reach out if they feel they’ve been wronged. I also think “be heard” extends a bit beyond just having the accused listen to you.

The sentiment is fair but the practice of it makes it unrealistic

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Im saying they were blocked on both sides of the investigation. Hawthorns as well as the AFLs .... That is clearly the case.

It’s not clearly the case at all. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

As has been said in here 100 times now the coaches were never asked to validate any of the players stories within the Hawthorn report, because that is not a task that a club is to undertake under the AFL protocols.
The players were asked of their experiences at Hawthorn, and once Egan reported back to Hawthorn with these allegations, the report was handed to the AFL.

Once an allegation is established all AFL clubs are duty bound to hand these allegations over to the AFL integrity department, who will then decide how to investigate.


The AFL ran an investigation themselves. Egan had no involvement at all, so you’re continual posts stating that Egan blocked the coaches is just a blatant lie on all fronts.