NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[burge13]

This speaks to Hawthorns gross incompetence.

Has nothing to do with the substance of the allegations.

If you say so. Certainly speaks to Hawthorns incompetence but doesn't help the plausibility of already implausible accusations

 

[Elixuh]

If you say so. Certainly speaks to Hawthorns incompetence but doesn't help the plausibility of already implausible accusations

Why? Your logic makes no sense.

You can simply make an application to the Federal Court and then get up and say this is what I allege and the evidence can be tested. Then the report is largely irrelevant. The relevance of the report is likely limited to any cross-examination to the extent that the particulars in the federal court application differ from what was originally said during the interviews.

 

[JackOutback]

If you say so. Certainly speaks to Hawthorns incompetence but doesn't help the plausibility of already implausible accusations

You find the idea that Aboriginal people could be treated poorly by organisations run by non-Aboriginal people implausible? You must be constantly surprised by life.

 

[burge13]

You find the idea that Aboriginal people could be treated poorly by organisations run by non-Aboriginal people implausible? You must be constantly surprised by life.

That's not the allegations or accusation though is it?

What is implausible is being told to get an abortion

 

[sr36]

Everyone who knew even the slightest bit about Hawthorn knew that Clarko was a lunatic and a control freak. He was hated by a large number of his players, but they were winning flags, so they stayed.
He had his pets, and Shaun B was one of them.
The grabbing of the 9yo, if true, is something he would do to anyone's kid. He has a screw loose.
I mean, asking someone to have an abortion is another sign of someone who isn't living in reality.

Just because he did something lunatic to an Aboriginal player as well as white players, doesn't make it a race thing.

Why did he ask the kid to get an abortion? Because he doesn't want Aboriginal people to procreate? Or, did he think that this particular player wasn't in the right position to have a kid and it might effect his football?
All Clarko cared about was winning, and if that meant doing crazy things he did it.

It depends on whether you view or define racism as being about the intentions of an action or the outcomes of an action.

Coercion falls harder on those who feel less empowered, thus in our society it often has a racially discriminating outcome - even if the intention was to coerce all.

 

[Cleric]

It depends on whether you view or define racism as being about the intentions of an action or the outcomes of an action.

Coercion falls harder on those who feel less empowered, thus in our society it often has a racially discriminating outcome - even if the intention was to coerce all.

Does anyone really think Clarko hates Aboriginals, and him asking the kid to get an abortion was soley because of that?
He most likely thought that if the player had a kid, with a girl who he had a dysfunctional relationship with, it was going to make it more likely to effect his on field performances, and so that's all that matters to Clarko. If X effects his ability to win games, then X must be stopped.
Now, he can be taken to task about him treating the situation all about winning football games, and not about the human situation that was also happening.

 

[sr36]

Does anyone really think Clarko hates Aboriginals, and him asking the kid to get an abortion was soley because of that?
He most likely thought that if the player had a kid, with a girl who he had a dysfunctional relationship with, it was going to make it more likely to effect his on field performances, and so that's all that matters to Clarko. If X effects his ability to win games, then X must be stopped.
Now, he can be taken to task about him treating the situation all about winning football games, and not about the human situation that was also happening.

Did you read my post that you quoted?

Like most words, there are different definitions of "racism."

Yours is an old fashioned one that makes it all about what is being thought and ignores the outcome of actions.

And even with your old fashioned definition - you've then narrowed "racism" down further to be only about hate and are either ignorant to or ignoring other potential racial biases (conscious or subconscious) onto the coach.

What they were thinking is a **** knows situation. They'll be tried on their actions.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Does anyone really think Clarko hates Aboriginals, and him asking the kid to get an abortion was soley because of that?
He most likely thought that if the player had a kid, with a girl who he had a dysfunctional relationship with, it was going to make it more likely to effect his on field performances, and so that's all that matters to Clarko. If X effects his ability to win games, then X must be stopped.
Now, he can be taken to task about him treating the situation all about winning football games, and not about the human situation that was also happening.

You would be surprised how many people hate Aboriginals. It is important to note that you do not need to hate an Aboriginal to be racist. Many people in power see themselves above Aboriginals and treat them as a sub species.

 

[The Feeder Club]

It depends on whether you view or define racism as being about the intentions of an action or the outcomes of an action.

Coercion falls harder on those who feel less empowered, thus in our society it often has a racially discriminating outcome - even if the intention was to coerce all.

You couldn't encapsulate the world view of identity politics any better.

Subjecting everyone to the same standard = racism

It's why the thread will go back and forth between people who believe that and others who reject that.

 

[Soggy2112]

It depends on whether you view or define racism as being about the intentions of an action or the outcomes of an action.

Coercion falls harder on those who feel less empowered, thus in our society it often has a racially discriminating outcome - even if the intention was to coerce all.

Intentions are irrelevant in my opinion. There were people involved in the stolen generation who genuinely would have thought they were doing the right thing.

Ultimately the question is were aboriginal players treated worse than others by Clarkson and co because of their race. It doesn’t matter whether he intended to or not.

 

[Back One Out]

You would be surprised how many people hate Aboriginals. It is important to note that you do not need to hate an Aboriginal to be racist. Many people in power see themselves above Aboriginals and treat them as a sub species.

I don't think Clarkson treated the Aboriginal players any differently to the white guys on the team. There have been plenty of examples given by Hawthorn's entrenched senior players of Clarkson not "staying in his lane", where he over-stepped the mark and crossed the boundaries into the private lives of players. Good intentions, well-meaning, or perhaps a control-freak who was obsessed with every detail.

People seem to gloss over how loyal Clarkson is to the people around him. How much he never threw any of his players under the bus, but fought tooth and nail to defend them whenever the media tried to dig up dirt & attack them. He was off the charts in this respect. It's why he had such fractured relationships with twerps in the media and regularly got into trouble for abusing them. Nearly all of those blow-ups were instances Clarkson defending his boys and telling the headline-seeking, clickbait journos to f*** off.

When the Binmada consultants (Phil Egan and Dr Meaghan Katrak Harris) interviewed disgruntled past players with the intention of exposing instances of racism, rightly or wrongly, it became easy to frame Clarko's actions as racist. It supposedly doesn't matter what his intentions or motivations were because we are now told that doesn't matter, and racism is more about how the recipient feels.

Good luck with that.

 

[sr36]

You couldn't encapsulate the world view of identity politics any better.

Subjecting everyone to the same standard = racism

It's why the thread will go back and forth between people who believe that and others who reject that.

In an ideal world I think we'd use a different word than racism or sexism, which many associate only with attitudes and beliefs and thus it causes discussions like this, but it's undoubted that in some cases same treatment/rule can disadvantage one group over another.

 

[The Feeder Club]

In an ideal world I think we'd use a different word than racism or sexism, which many associate only with attitudes and beliefs and thus it causes discussions like this, but it's undoubted that in some cases same treatment/rule can disadvantage one group over another.

I definitely agree we need different words.
Instead we lump everything from genocidal apartheid all the way through to ignorance that different outcomes for some people are due (in part only)) to the structure and attitude of the dominant culture, under the same banner of "racism".

I'm not sure how it helps anyone to call these the same name, or to suggest all different outcomes are due to the structure and attitude of the dominant culture, when only part of them are.

It certainly just hardens the attitude of well meaning people who think everyone should be treated the same, for them to be called racists

 

[South of the Yarra]

Intentions are irrelevant in my opinion. There were people involved in the stolen generation who genuinely would have thought they were doing the right thing.

Ultimately the question is were aboriginal players treated worse than others by Clarkson and co because of their race. It doesn’t matter whether he intended to or not.

Unfortunately, from my knowledge, most of those involved in the Stolen Generation knew what they were doing and most knew it was wrong.

 

[sr36]

Unfortunately, from my knowledge, most of those involved in the Stolen Generation knew what they were doing and most knew it was wrong.

And the reality is that even if some may have had positive intentions - the actions were undoubtedly driven by racist beliefs and attitudes. Thus it was racist regardless of how you are going to define racism.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Does anyone really think Clarko hates Aboriginals, and him asking the kid to get an abortion was soley because of that?
He most likely thought that if the player had a kid, with a girl who he had a dysfunctional relationship with, it was going to make it more likely to effect his on field performances, and so that's all that matters to Clarko. If X effects his ability to win games, then X must be stopped.
Now, he can be taken to task about him treating the situation all about winning football games, and not about the human situation that was also happening.

The abortion claim was because the pregnancy was high risk and the player was worried about his partner.

Sure, it's a massive overstep, it's not racist though

 

[Soggy2112]

And the reality is that even if some may have had positive intentions - the actions were undoubtedly driven by racist beliefs and attitudes. Thus it was racist regardless of how you are going to define racism.

Exactly, that was my point. Was in no way trying to defend it

 

[Cleric]

The abortion claim was because the pregnancy was high risk and the player was worried about his partner.

Sure, it's a massive overstep, it's not racist though

I agree, it wasn't racist.
Unfortunately there is a group of people who believe if anything negative happens to an Aboriginal person, its due to racism.
They are over represented in prison soley due to racism. They have a low life expectancy soley due to racism.

 

[sr36]

I agree, it wasn't racist.
Unfortunately there is a group of people who believe if anything negative happens to an Aboriginal person, its due to racism.
They are over represented in prison soley due to racism. They have a low life expectancy soley due to racism.

Nah, you just don't get that the term racism is used by many more broadly than just describing KKK style hate.

 

[South of the Yarra]

I agree, it wasn't racist.
Unfortunately, there is a group of people who believe if anything negative happens to an Aboriginal person, its due to racism.
They are overrepresented in prison soley due to racism. They have a low life expectancy soley due to racism.

I wouldn't think there are not many people that think anything negative that happens to Aboriginal people is racism. I can tell you though that many Aboriginals who are in prison and the many Aboriginal people who have a low life expectancy is because of inter-generational trauma stemming from racism.

 

[the big lebowski]

I wouldn't think there are not many people that think anything negative that happens to Aboriginal people is racism. I can tell you though that many Aboriginals who are in prison and the many Aboriginal people who have a low life expectancy is because of inter-generational trauma stemming from racism.

I wonder how many people are racist due to the inter generational trauma of being exposed to racists.

 

[blackshadow]

I wouldn't think there are not many people that think anything negative that happens to Aboriginal people is racism. I can tell you though that many Aboriginals who are in prison and the many Aboriginal people who have a low life expectancy is because of inter-generational trauma stemming from racism.

I have absolutely zero doubt that many Aboriginal people have and are experiencing inter-generational trauma and that it has profoundly negative effects on rates of incarceration and life expectancy.

The vexing question is how to alleviate these negative effects.

I heard a harrowing story yesterday involving a family friend (a woman in her eighties) who was staying in a motel in a small town in Northern NSW on her way home from visiting her son in QLD. At 5am a number of young Aboriginal men broke into her room, assaulted her (thankfully not seriously) and stole her bag and car. The police believe they are a group of men who were recently released from prison and were “on a rampage”.

Unfortunately it’s incidents like these that hardens attitudes.

 

[ferball]

I don't think Clarkson treated the Aboriginal players any differently to the white guys on the team. There have been plenty of examples given by Hawthorn's entrenched senior players of Clarkson not "staying in his lane", where he over-stepped the mark and crossed the boundaries into the private lives of players. Good intentions, well-meaning, or perhaps a control-freak who was obsessed with every detail.

People seem to gloss over how loyal Clarkson is to the people around him. How much he never threw any of his players under the bus, but fought tooth and nail to defend them whenever the media tried to dig up dirt & attack them. He was off the charts in this respect. It's why he had such fractured relationships with twerps in the media and regularly got into trouble for abusing them. Nearly all of those blow-ups were instances Clarkson defending his boys and telling the headline-seeking, clickbait journos to f*** off.

When the Binmada consultants (Phil Egan and Dr Meaghan Katrak Harris) interviewed disgruntled past players with the intention of exposing instances of racism, rightly or wrongly, it became easy to frame Clarko's actions as racist. It supposedly doesn't matter what his intentions or motivations were because we are now told that doesn't matter, and racism is more about how the recipient feels.

Good luck with that.

Clarkson has copped alot of shit in the media since he joined us.

Twice for attacking people who he felt wronged aboriginal players.

Once after a journo turned up uninvited to hassle an aboriginal player we ended up sacking over DV allegations. The other for abusing an inbred, redneck shithead who played for another club after he king hit an aboriginal player (who hasn't played the same since) who was captain of our footy side and who had allegedly copped shit off some members of the indigenous community for not throwing Clarkson under a bus after those allegations came out.

Maybe he did that for the optics or maybe he did it because he is, as you say, intensely loyal to his players.

 

[yodellinhank]

Clarkson has copped alot of shit in the media since he joined us.

Twice for attacking people who he felt wronged aboriginal players.

Once after a journo turned up uninvited to hassle an aboriginal player we ended up sacking over DV allegations. The other for abusing an inbred, redneck shithead who played for another club after he king hit an aboriginal player (who hasn't played the same since) who was captain of our footy side and who had allegedly copped shit off some members of the indigenous community for not throwing Clarkson under a bus after those allegations came out.

Maybe he did that for the optics or maybe he did it because he is, as you say, intensely loyal to his players.

Nobody is doubting that he is a volatile, angry ant who will run his mouth at any given opportunity and that you wouldn't want to turn your back on him if he had you in his sights. I think everyone can agree on that.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Nobody is doubting that he is a volatile, angry ant who will run his mouth at any given opportunity and that you wouldn't want to turn your back on him if he had you in his sights. I think everyone can agree on that.

Yep. Remove the untested/irrelevant "racist" slant to the accusations and you'd have >90% of people on the same side of the argument.