NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

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Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Checkered]

You can believe the victims once there is context. We have absolutely zero context. All we know is a player was randomly targetted and given a disturbing proposition.

How do we know said player wasn't called in to have his performance issues talked about? Maybe then the player brought to light some personal issues as his reason for being down on performance. It could just be simple as the coaches providing advice and options in an attempt to help the player deal with his issues. Personal issues are a massive contributor to athletic performance and it is something clubs need to address in player management. For all we know they could've just been bringing that fact to light along with some advice.

Pure speculation but the fact of the matter is we have 0 context, so you can't pass judgement just yet. Wouldn't be the first time the storyline flipped into the so called victims face. The victim may also be 100% correct. But you take that once you hear the other side.

There’s three stories, this isn’t an isolated incident. You’re insinuating otherwise which is either disingenuous or showing that you didn’t read it all.

Like I say, false allegations of this proportion are a tiny percentage, like an absolutely tiny percent. Of course we need the full story to come out, but the majority of it already is, and the victims should be believed and supported

 

[Lord of the Wings]

Gil said a week in his presser. You heard otherwise?

ABC article confirmed 2 weeks

 

[Blackhawk42]

ummmm

fact check.

Essendon were not punished for Systematic Cheating.

They were specifically punished for governance failings and bringing the game into disrepute - both of which is occurring here if proven.

you should be careful and check exactly what you are saying.

The players were banned under anti-doping rules were they not?

Even if you believe they were completely innocent and let down by their club, the on-field sanctions involved for performance enhancers being involved is well known and accepted.

This situation looks like 3 individuals acting very inappropriately to specific indigenous players on a welfare front. Horrific. But where does a draft sanction (as an example) come into the equation as a punishment?

 

[Saint]

Help me understand, is the opinion you're putting forward here that anyone can say anything at any time about anyone, and the other party shouldn't have a right to reply, so long as there's no allegations of criminal activity involved? When I say justice I don't only mean in reference to legal proceedings, I mean the conduct you would expect in a just society.

There's three examples reported. It's not one person's word against another. It's three peoples' (minimum) word against another who has, thus far, refused to speak or give comment.

What could he say? "Did not"

The fact is, with 3 consistent awful allegations, there's not a lot you could say to convince people otherwise. Me included. Is there a possibility he's innocent? Yes. Is it too miniscule to worry about being wrong? Yes.

Especially when you're an AFL coach who abuses Under 9's umpires, punches holes in walls etc.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Will Jai Newcombe and Josh Ward get suspended for the actions of the club a decade ago? No.

Neither did any Essendon player not involved in the drug program. Precisely my point.

 

[db26]

Interesting read.

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/shameful-jeff-kennett-urged-to-resign-after-cyril-riolis-explosive-claims/news-story/894960b06e56af3aea0cce7bb6346a7e

 

[HirdsTheWord]

The players were banned under anti-doping rules were they not?

Even if you believe they were completely innocent and let down by their club, the on-field sanctions involved for performance enhancers being involved is well known and accepted.

This situation looks like 3 individuals acting very inappropriately to specific indigenous players on a welfare front. Horrific. But where does a draft sanction (as an example) come into the equation as a punishment?

Essendon FC was punished by the AFL well before players were found guilty by WADA.

Essendon was not punished for taking a banned substance. The club was punished for governance failings and bringing the game into disrepute. Both are in Hawthorns wheelhouse right now.

Essendon lost draft picks, 2 million fine and ban from finals BEFORE players were found guilty. Let that sink in.

 

[HairyO]

None, however Collingwood’s report didn’t bring the game into disrepute.

Really? Other than finding a long history of systemic racism?

At the moment all we know is 3 former Hawthorn players have claimed to have been horrifically mis-treated. The interesting thing is, the external review only involved Aboriginal players. It could well be the extent of the mistreatment goes well beyond just Aboriginal players.

I would hope expanding the review to include many more former players is one of the first things the club did.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

Like when Dean Bailey and Chris Connolly were suspended while at other clubs for "not tanking"? Meanwhile, there were no non-financial penalties to Melbourne, the CEO wasn't penalised and the club didn't lose any draft picks?

Are you serious?

Those scenarios as distasteful as they were just do not compare to how bad and damaging to the league as this.

Dean Bailey was treated appallingly btw.

 

[Rod Stroker]

Hardwick

He left there in 2009. I doubt he was part of the "regime", possibly after his time.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

No, it's not.

People like harp on about how 'racist' we are as nation.

Those same people would die of shock if they extensively travelled the world and realised how inherently racist Asians, Europeans, people in the Americas are, etc.

I'm not saying we cant do better here but on an international scale, it may blow your mind to know that we actually aren't as racist as people so desperately want to believe we are.

Other people's bad behaviour does not excuse our own.

 

[gordo2016]

Travelled overseas much?

Travelled to remote Australia much? Whats going overseas go to do with his comment?

 

[bzparkes]

So your best argument is that Australia is “less racist”?
Nice try

It is.

We can still be better than we are though

 

[Thetrader15]

The players were banned under anti-doping rules were they not?

Even if you believe they were completely innocent and let down by their club, the on-field sanctions involved for performance enhancers being involved is well known and accepted.

This situation looks like 3 individuals acting very inappropriately to specific indigenous players on a welfare front. Horrific. But where does a draft sanction (as an example) come into the equation as a punishment?

Draft sanctions are really the only thing that hurts clubs long term. Financial penalties look bad, but then clubs just get the money back from the AFL if they in financial trouble. Coach suspensions hurt for the short term.

Miss 3 drafts, and that sets you back long term. Just ask the Crows.

 

[MauroFogheri]

The ABC aren’t above dropping a big story in GF week to maximise eyes on the league at that time.

In the lead up to the Melbourne Cup we get the annual "dark side of the Racing Industry" expose. Collectively, the ABC have a worldview: an instinctive mistrust of any profit making industry

 

[Sphynx]

Neither did any Essendon player not involved in the drug program. Precisely my point.

I'm not advocating for the Hawthorn players to be suspended.

I'm advocating for draft sanctions.

Merrett and Parish weren't involved in the drug program either.

They were penalised on field by association of the clubs actions though.

 

[bzparkes]

Other people's bad behaviour does not excuse our own.

Never said it did.

 

[Lord of the Wings]

What penalties did they give to Collingwood?

With due respect these are fundamentally different allegations and whilst the behavior at Collingwood was bad enough this is on another level completely.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Not to get into the question of whether the club or the individuals should be sanctioned, but ffs trying to make an Indigenous person abort their baby is not an "administrative mistake".

From the perspective of where this falls in regards to how to implement a sanction.

Melbourne fell under tanking.
Essendon under doping rules.
This Hawthorn incident comes under welfare management. That in itself is more so part of the admin side of the club than the on-field results.

You've simplified it too much. I'm not at all dismissing the gravity of it. It's abhorrent.

 

[Thetrader15]

Are you serious?

Those scenarios as distasteful as they were just do not compare to how bad and damaging to the league as this.

Dean Bailey was treated appallingly btw.

I was responding to the the notion that if Clarkson was stood down, Hawks should pay compo (ie a draft pick) to North for their loss.

I certainly wasn't comparing the Melbourne situation with these allegations.

 

[bzparkes]

Travelled to remote Australia much? Whats going overseas go to do with his comment?

Just sick of the narrative that we're some incredibly racist country when we aren't even remotely as bad as the vast majority of the rest of the world.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

From the perspective of where this falls in regards to how to implement a sanction.

Melbourne fell under tanking.
Essendon under doping rules.
This Hawthorn incident comes under welfare management. That in itself is more so part of the admin side of the club than the on-field results.

You've simplified it too much. I'm not at all dismissing the gravity of it. It's abhorrent.

Essendon were not sanctioned by the AFL for doping.

They were sanctioned for Bringing the game into disrepute and governance failings - both are looking directly at Hawthorn.

WADA found players guilty well after Essendon was sanctioned.

 

[ImaBeliever!]

A day ago we didnt know about any overstepping with Indigenous players. Whats to say we dont know about overstepping with other players. He definitely pushed it with other players.

IF it did, and there is no indication of that, would it have had the same particular sociocultural impacts as for the Indigenous recruits? IF the investigation showed that Clarko had done the alleged Abortion demand on a non-Indigenous player and his partner, wouldn’t that have been reported as well? Of course it would have been. In fact, I doubt he would try anything to that extent with a white player full stop. Don’t try to gloss over the obvious underlining racist aspects of this horrible situation.


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[Dave]

Then that is a system that MUST be changed.
The welfare and wellbeing of these young men is not beholden to the wealth, influence and competition between elite schools.
That system you describe, is broken.
The progression is straight to those schools at 15, then to the Draft at 18.
No wonder those in power think they can exploit every part of their lives.
Lambs to the slaughter.

Raise the Draft age to 20.
Recruit young men instead.

Sorry, I wasn't disagreeing that it should happen, it absolutely should. We should be recruiting young men ala the US systems where they go to college mostly before "going pro". My comment was more a commentary on how our society works. Money talks.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Essendon FC was punished by the AFL well before players were found guilty by WADA.

Essendon was not punished for taking a banned substance. The club was punished for governance failings and bringing the game into disrepute. Both are in Hawthorns wheelhouse right now.

Essendon lost draft picks, 2 million fine and ban from finals BEFORE players were found guilty. Let that sink in.

And the majority of people involved were still at the club.

That isn't the case here.

It's very different.

You're just hoping your old rival is set back a decade on field so your supporter base can sink the boots in like ours (unfairly IMO) did to yours.