NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Gralin]

I haven't watched an episode of this since the wonderful and witty John Waters was a guest panellist, but definitely tuning in tonight.

oh god that panel

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

oh god that panel

Jesus, didn't even notice Alan Jones or Jacqui Lambeet until you pointed it out.

Probably skip it now. Ugh

 

[projectv]

I haven't watched an episode of this since the wonderful and witty John Waters was a guest panellist, but definitely tuning in tonight.

I'd rather drink bleach than tune into that.

Q&A has really fallen off since Tony Jones departed.

Also, it's a bit scuffed to be talking about the issue given it's still playing out publicly, what would they even talk about?

 

[Kram]

Jesus, didn't even notice Alan Jones or Jacqui Lambeet until you pointed it out.

Probably skip it now. Ugh

Come on you know you will still watch

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

I'd rather drink bleach than tune into that.

Q&A has really fallen off since Tony Jones departed.

Also, it's a bit scuffed to be talking about the issue given it's still playing out publicly, what would they even talk about?

Stan talks too much according to Crikey.

 

[H2F]

There is no way so many people believe Clarko and Fagan bullied some player because he was Indigenous to abort a child and cutoff contact with his GF, because he would be more focused on footy.

FFS at absolute worst they tried to save a kid spiraling down a bad path and went too far trying to help. Call it overstepping their duties if it makes you feel better.

No wonder our progress in these matters is slower than we’d all like, Hawks commission a report and their greatest ever coach is now destroyed by all and sundry, most likely for caring too much and possibly being a bit too hard, which that same style also made so many players better than they would have ever been.

I don’t know what drives people to have such joy in total destruction of a person, maybe it makes a bunch of you feel better about yourself.

 

[jj15]

Does he though?

How would we know?

I’m sorry what? We know because of his record, statements from his current club would go to suggest the record to.

 

[jj15]

What evidence are they corroborating in your example? If there was several instances of testimony (which there aren't) then maybe, but you've tried to shift the conversation from your initial equivalence of corroboration with character attack

Character, that it didn’t happen.

Again useless as much as any of it as useless.

Who was in the room when the abortion comment was made? That’s all that matters and all that will matter. Rest is hearsay. If 3 /4 people say Clarkson did it then he’s gone. If 3/4 say he didn’t then how can it be proven? Please tell me how that is possible in a court of law?

 

[H2F]

Focusing on their football career = winning games of football.

lets also be clear.

These players weren't drafted just because Hawthorn were good blokes. They were drafted to win games of football. So ultimately, yes if they were allegedly asked (and i emphasise allegedly until proven) to abort a child to focus on football, its because Hawthorn wanted to win games of football.

Or possibly they thought a hard disciplined approach would help them. We don’t know the facts yet, I’m still of the view a lot of this may have been misunderstood or history re-written subconsciously. What we’ve learnt only is a handful of the hundreds of players he coach felt traumatised by the experience, which is too many. Doesn’t make Clarko a monster.

 

[jj15]

I think you’ll find that they were statements made by Phill Egan, who delivered the report to HFC, and has made some comments since this became public knowledge.

Who said I believed wholeheartedly, or that I was deflecting as “agenda pushing”. Get a grip.

So there is nothing that has proven anything yet. Just statements from both sides?

 

[Saint]

Or possibly they thought a hard disciplined approach would help them. We don’t know the facts yet, I’m still of the view a lot of this may have been misunderstood or history re-written subconsciously. What we’ve learnt only is a handful of the hundreds of players he coach felt traumatised by the experience, which is too many. Doesn’t make Clarko a monster.

Well there were only 20 indigenous players interviewed (maximum) and at least 3 were traumatised and spoke to the ABC about it. So that's a minimum of 15%.

Do you think it was ok to traumatise 15% of indigenous players?

Some people here won't believe it until they see a video of Clarko saying and doing it. Until then, they'll be happy to watch it swept under the rug as "those three players said this, but Clarko said this, so it's he, he, he, she, she she, said vs he said."

 

[kingswood71]

Who was in the room when the abortion comment was made? That’s all that matters and all that will matter. Rest is hearsay. If 3 /4 people say Clarkson did it then he’s gone. If 3/4 say he didn’t then how can it be proven? Please tell me how that is possible in a court of law?

I dont agree that the termination comment is all that matters......Its the worst allegation obviously, but the primary issue is the alleged forcing of players to chose football over their partners. That is the common theme of all 3 allegations. The Rioli's have also alluded to this, so thats 8 people who may report that to the panel.
Its not a 100% proof that is required. We have been over this. Its the balance of probabilities. Will 8 people saying that people within the club forced players to choose their football over their partners carry more weight than 3 denying it?...yes it will. Thats how the balance of probabilities works. You only have to be leaning more toward true than false. It doesnt need to be 100%, 75% or even 55%....just more probable that something occurred than that it didnt occur.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Or possibly they thought a hard disciplined approach would help them. We don’t know the facts yet, I’m still of the view a lot of this may have been misunderstood or history re-written subconsciously. What we’ve learnt only is a handful of the hundreds of players he coach felt traumatised by the experience, which is too many. Doesn’t make Clarko a monster.

Not sure I ever said he was a monster, but these allegations are far beyond unacceptable to what a football coach should be getting involved with.

It is an absurd level of personal involvement

 

[SaintsSeptember]

You seem to have a lot of faith in the integrity of the AFL , who is your clubs ceo again?

Oh I'm sorry. Lethlean had an extramarital affair and resigned from the AFL.
That obviously proves them totally corrupt and my opinion worthless. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Gralin]

There is no way so many people believe Clarko and Fagan bullied some player because he was Indigenous to abort a child and cutoff contact with his GF, because he would be more focused on footy.

FFS at absolute worst they tried to save a kid spiraling down a bad path and went too far trying to help. Call it overstepping their duties if it makes you feel better.

No this is just you coming up with justifications for their actions

No wonder our progress in these matters is slower than we’d all like, Hawks commission a report and their greatest ever coach is now destroyed by all and sundry, most likely for caring too much and possibly being a bit too hard, which that same style also made so many players better than they would have ever been.

Our progress is slow because the default position for most is to not believe the Indigenous persons account of the events

I don’t know what drives people to have such joy in total destruction of a person, maybe it makes a bunch of you feel better about yourself.

Or maybe people are angry about what's been alleged to have happened

Or possibly they thought a hard disciplined approach would help them. We don’t know the facts yet, I’m still of the view a lot of this may have been misunderstood or history re-written subconsciously. What we’ve learnt only is a handful of the hundreds of players he coach felt traumatised by the experience, which is too many. Doesn’t make Clarko a monster.

At least 3 out of 20 players interviewed for this report actually.
Cyril also who isn't in that 3

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

oh god that panel

3/4 of the panel are racist or apologists for racists. What a joke.

 

[JackOutback]

There is no way so many people believe Clarko and Fagan bullied some player because he was Indigenous to abort a child and cutoff contact with his GF, because he would be more focused on footy.

FFS at absolute worst they tried to save a kid spiraling down a bad path and went too far trying to help. Call it overstepping their duties if it makes you feel better.

No wonder our progress in these matters is slower than we’d all like, Hawks commission a report and their greatest ever coach is now destroyed by all and sundry, most likely for caring too much and possibly being a bit too hard, which that same style also made so many players better than they would have ever been.

I don’t know what drives people to have such joy in total destruction of a person, maybe it makes a bunch of you feel better about yourself.

I see you have moved from denial to bargaining. Acceptance can’t be far behind.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

There was also this issue at Hawthorn

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/young-employee-accuses-afl-club-hawthorn-of-discrimination/news-story/1528fec550cbd399cb61db65f360bf8f

 

[noideaatall]

...

FFS at absolute worst they tried to save a kid spiraling down a bad path and went too far trying to help. Call it overstepping their duties if it makes you feel better.

...

I will bite, solely in responding to these sentences and taking it on face value.

Trying to save is one of the arguments used in regards to the stolen generation and one put forth by the Putin regime, as examples. Right intention does not make right action, so it is the actions we need to consider not the intent.

"A kid spiraling down a bad path" is an assessment of a situation. Someone screaming out for help when another is visibly attacking them is very different from someone who is happily drinking themselves to oblivion every night down the pub. What was the assessment based on is a key question: if it was an assessment based on their cultural/socioeconomic values of what is a bad path then with a minority group who didn't share the same values it could be considered discrimination. If it was assessment based on whether said kid would be of value to their enterprise or not it takes a very different flavour.

"Went too far" implies legitimacy in the actions in the first place but even if there was legitimacy going too far is never an acceptable excuse. There are boundaries in all aspects of life, knowledge of those boundaries is expected, particularly in the case of such high level/paid positions we are discussing.

"Overstepping their duties" flies only if those involved had any particular duties in regards to the persons or matters discussed. I suspect this will become a key issue going forward. It may be the AFL is different from almost all the other employment situations I can imagine and supposedly do have or have assumed some duties in the areas considered. Inherent with this, though, is the establishment of appropriate boundaries. Failure to establish is poor governance. Fail to practice is something else again.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

There is no way so many people believe Clarko and Fagan bullied some player because he was Indigenous to abort a child and cutoff contact with his GF, because he would be more focused on footy.

FFS at absolute worst they tried to save a kid spiraling down a bad path and went too far trying to help. Call it overstepping their duties if it makes you feel better.

No wonder our progress in these matters is slower than we’d all like, Hawks commission a report and their greatest ever coach is now destroyed by all and sundry, most likely for caring too much and possibly being a bit too hard, which that same style also made so many players better than they would have ever been.

I don’t know what drives people to have such joy in total destruction of a person, maybe it makes a bunch of you feel better about yourself.

What about the player who tried to top himself because of all this? Is Clarkson more important than thatbguy to you?

 

[madmug]

There is no way so many people believe Clarko and Fagan bullied some player because he was Indigenous to abort a child and cutoff contact with his GF, because he would be more focused on footy.

FFS at absolute worst they tried to save a kid spiraling down a bad path and went too far trying to help. Call it overstepping their duties if it makes you feel better.

No wonder our progress in these matters is slower than we’d all like, Hawks commission a report and their greatest ever coach is now destroyed by all and sundry, most likely for caring too much and possibly being a bit too hard, which that same style also made so many players better than they would have ever been.

I don’t know what drives people to have such joy in total destruction of a person, maybe it makes a bunch of you feel better about yourself.

Well, we don't really know what sort of path they were on, or off.

Suffice to say, if the coaches were acting above their 'paygrade' as clinical psychologists & Aboriginal cultural experts, then they may cop some trouble.

Again, we don't know so most of us are willing to wait to hear the full story, & all its angles.

 

[campbell]

I will bite, solely in responding to these sentences and taking it on face value.

Trying to save is one of the arguments used in regards to the stolen generation and one put forth by the Putin regime, as examples. Right intention does not make right action, so it is the actions we need to consider not the intent.

"A kid spiraling down a bad path" is an assessment of a situation. Someone screaming out for help when another is visibly attacking them is very different from someone who is happily drinking themselves to oblivion every night down the pub. What was the assessment based on is a key question: if it was an assessment based on their cultural/socioeconomic values of what is a bad path then with a minority group who didn't share the same values it could be considered discrimination. If it was assessment based on whether said kid would be of value to their enterprise or not it takes a very different flavour.

"Went too far" implies legitimacy in the actions in the first place but even if there was legitimacy going too far is never an acceptable excuse. There are boundaries in all aspects of life, knowledge of those boundaries is expected, particularly in the case of such high level/paid positions we are discussing.

"Overstepping their duties" flies only if those involved had any particular duties in regards to the persons or matters discussed. I suspect this will become a key issue going forward. It may be the AFL is different from almost all the other employment situations I can imagine and supposedly do have or have assumed some duties in the areas considered. Inherent with this, though, is the establishment of appropriate boundaries. Failure to establish is poor governance. Fail to practice is something else again.

Thinking they were acting in the best interests of the player and club, by having a conversation about a partner/ family is Not Their business.

Someone thought it was a really good idea and in my best interests to take me out of my home as a young child and place me in a Catholic Orphanage..........It was not.......

This is no ones business but the individual.

No one at Hawthorn, should think they can say/do what was reported.

Hawthorn need to stay in their lane.They are an employer only.

I hope they throw the book at them.Deregister all staff involved.

 

[gouki88]

There is no way so many people believe Clarko and Fagan bullied some player because he was Indigenous to abort a child and cutoff contact with his GF, because he would be more focused on footy.

FFS at absolute worst they tried to save a kid spiraling down a bad path and went too far trying to help. Call it overstepping their duties if it makes you feel better.

No wonder our progress in these matters is slower than we’d all like, Hawks commission a report and their greatest ever coach is now destroyed by all and sundry, most likely for caring too much and possibly being a bit too hard, which that same style also made so many players better than they would have ever been.

I don’t know what drives people to have such joy in total destruction of a person, maybe it makes a bunch of you feel better about yourself.

Incredible concentration of ignorance in one post

 

[H2F]

Incredible concentration of ignorance in one post

Really.

So twenty years of having endless care and passion for his players means zip, over the stories told from the perspective of a troubled person. And yes he attempted his own life the poor thing (5 times I think I read). I just believe that sometimes you can have the best of intentions and that actually f**ks you more than if you just don’t care.

If I’m right and Clarko tried his best, albeit was too hard or informant of cultural challenges at the time FFS isn’t the report to teach us, not destroy people. Good luck having other clubs run these things transparently moving forward.

 

[gouki88]

Really.

So twenty years of having endless care and passion for his players means zip, over the stories told from the perspective of a troubled person. And yes he attempted his own life the poor thing (5 times I think I read). I just believe that sometimes you can have the best of intentions and that actually f**ks you more than if you just don’t care.

If I’m right and Clarko tried his best, albeit was too hard or informant of cultural challenges at the time FFS isn’t the report to teach us, not destroy people. Good luck having other clubs run these things transparently moving forward.

You are clearly very biased because of how many flags he won your mob, chill