News Hawthorn Racism Scandal

[edgie]

What statistics are you referring to?

This is pretty clear from the Australian Institute of Criminology:
View attachment 1514955

To put this in context, from the associated text:

The death rate of Indigenous people in police custody was 0.45 per 100,000 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander population aged 10 years and over (at 30 June 2020; see Table B5). The death rate of non-Indigenous people in police custody was 0.06 per 100,000 non-Indigenous population aged 10 years and over (at 30 June 2020)

Literally what I said. They are using stats from the greater general population, not from those already in custody. Once in custody, that gap shrinks. A lot. There's your context. Comparing apples with apples, no real difference.

The real problem is at the source, not the end, once already in custody.

 

[Sewer de Lance]

after reading the article there are more questions than answers, there seems to be a lot of third party translations of the actual events and a lot of context missing.

"Three families involved told ABC Sport about incidents in which club staff allegedly bullied and removed First Nations players from their homes and relocated them elsewhere, telling them to choose between their careers and their families"

1st question is are these the players themselves or the families? 2nd question, What does remove them from their homes mean and relocate them elsewhere? Does it mean the club asked the player to be closer to the club in order to be a more professional player? I think clubs would encourage every player to do that and it wouldnt be rare for most players to do something like that in their career, 3rd question. Telling them to choose between their careers or families. Does that mean they were told in order to be a professional player you have to make sacrifices like time with your family, this is the case for any player and i dont think their isnt a player that would tell you any different.

"the gravest accusations relate to the club's alleged intimidation tactics to separate couples at the earliest stages of pregnancies and parenthood, and the alleged demand that one player should instruct his partner to terminate a pregnancy — actions the families say created multi-generational traumas"

this is most worst accusation, what were these intimidation tactics? and why arent they detailed in the article if they are know? It seems strange that a journalist wouldnt find out what these tactics were?

what does it mean the club instructed a player to terminate a pregnancy? maybe it was a case of the player talked to the club doctor who then said that 1 option is that an abortion, this would be the case that any doctor in Australia would tell you if he saw you were apprehensive or distraught

The most glaring part of this whole story is that non of the other Aboriginal players at the time seems to be aware of these stories. I mean if this is all true then i suspect through direct contact or through the grapevine these stories would have been made know to them somewhere along the way in the 10 years since. To me these stories seem to far fetched to be true or have been manipulated by journalists to sound like something they are not with people's words twisted to create a narrative?

I think this is a fair analysis of a very delicate situation.

 

[AFC AFeederClub]

any reference to race is not racism but any reference to race could be racism, for example i could say 'there are aboriginals living at the end of my street'. That could be racist if i meant it to mean that those people down the end of the street are aboriginals and i dont want to associate with them or i could be a simple reference that those people living down the end of my street are aboriginals and its a point of fact or it could be said in a complimentary way that you are happy with that. The point is that context is everything, people deliberately take any reference ot race as racism because it goes with their narrative instead of adding the context in which it is said.

 

[MrMeaner]

What’s the problem in being “magic”?

If it was a couple of examples, it wouldn't be a problem. It becomes a problem when one group of people end up getting one type of praise, while another gets a different type. For example, you hardly ever hear of Indigenous players' hard work and determination. Indigenous players often earn adjectives like 'mercurial' or 'magic' and they often get a 'cult following' rather than just fans.

Another example, admittedly from a different time, was when Neil Kerley attributed Derek Kickett's ability on the field due to his experience 'dodging spears'.

 

[earthday]

The ABC are running this as their headline story and an AFL investigation is underway. Maybe we should hold judgement until the investigation has been completed?

Absolutely.

 

[Papa G]

after reading the article there are more questions than answers, there seems to be a lot of third party translations of the actual events and a lot of context missing.

"Three families involved told ABC Sport about incidents in which club staff allegedly bullied and removed First Nations players from their homes and relocated them elsewhere, telling them to choose between their careers and their families"

1st question is are these the players themselves or the families? 2nd question, What does remove them from their homes mean and relocate them elsewhere? Does it mean the club asked the player to be closer to the club in order to be a more professional player? I think clubs would encourage every player to do that and it wouldnt be rare for most players to do something like that in their career, 3rd question. Telling them to choose between their careers or families. Does that mean they were told in order to be a professional player you have to make sacrifices like time with your family, this is the case for any player and i dont think their isnt a player that would tell you any different.

"the gravest accusations relate to the club's alleged intimidation tactics to separate couples at the earliest stages of pregnancies and parenthood, and the alleged demand that one player should instruct his partner to terminate a pregnancy — actions the families say created multi-generational traumas"

this is most worst accusation, what were these intimidation tactics? and why arent they detailed in the article if they are know? It seems strange that a journalist wouldnt find out what these tactics were?

what does it mean the club instructed a player to terminate a pregnancy? maybe it was a case of the player talked to the club doctor who then said that 1 option is that an abortion, this would be the case that any doctor in Australia would tell you if he saw you were apprehensive or distraught

The most glaring part of this whole story is that non of the other Aboriginal players at the time seems to be aware of these stories. I mean if this is all true then i suspect through direct contact or through the grapevine these stories would have been made know to them somewhere along the way in the 10 years since. To me these stories seem to far fetched to be true or have been manipulated by journalists to sound like something they are not with people's words twisted to create a narrative?

This. I just find it incomprehensible that 2 coaches, both former school teachers, both fathers, would actively encourage a players partner to have an abortion. It just goes beyond almost everybody's moral code. Also, isn't the general consensus that fatherhood tends to tame a man and make him more focused?

Secondly, I also can't believe if this was going on, Shaun Burgoyne was unaware of it. Surely, if this player was subjected to what is alleged, it wouldn't come across in his demeanour? Surely Shaun would have picked up on this? As the senior Indigenous player on the list, he surely was paying extra special attention to one of the few other brothers on the list? It just doesn't seem to add up.

 

[EskimoPAFC]

Literally what I said. They are using stats from the greater general population, not from those already in custody. Once in custody, that gap shrinks. A lot. There's your context. Comparing apples with apples, no real difference.

The real problem is at the source, not the end, once already in custody.

I think most people understand that its something that disproportionately affects indigenous people because of the areas it happens and because of the larger number of arrests, not that the primary cause is police in stations actively targeting aboriginal arrestees. That is what is meant by a systemic problem.

 

[edgie]

Maybe, despite the press and social media, not ever aboriginal player has a deeply rooted interest in other aboriginal players issues and welfare. Maybe some just want to be footballers.

 

[Powerage]

So the journalist actually directly contacted the coaches by email and called. Even told Fagan he would hold off on the story if Fagan wanted time to respond to him.

Heart of gold that journo, bless his soul. Encouraging Fagan to "get in front of the narrative" and all that no doubt.

 

[edgie]

I think most people understand that its something that disproportionately affects indigenous people because of the areas it happens and because of the larger number of arrests, not that the primary cause is police in stations actively targeting aboriginal arrestees. That is what is meant by a systemic problem.

I don't think so, I think by reducing it to 'do something about deaths in custody' it paints an image of a custodial system that is unscrupulously racist, willfully causing death of aboriginal people at rates greater than others, rather than a social issue where aboriginal people are over represented in crime, leading to that.

 

[dirty2]

Ordinarily I'd agree. I mean Clarkson's been caught on camera punching a fan after a Port game back in 2015 - pretty much without consequence.

But this is on another level all together. If any of these accounts actually stick, he's toast.

Hope so...

 

[earthday]

after reading the article there are more questions than answers, there seems to be a lot of third party translations of the actual events and a lot of context missing.

"Three families involved told ABC Sport about incidents in which club staff allegedly bullied and removed First Nations players from their homes and relocated them elsewhere, telling them to choose between their careers and their families"

1st question is are these the players themselves or the families? 2nd question, What does remove them from their homes mean and relocate them elsewhere? Does it mean the club asked the player to be closer to the club in order to be a more professional player? I think clubs would encourage every player to do that and it wouldnt be rare for most players to do something like that in their career, 3rd question. Telling them to choose between their careers or families. Does that mean they were told in order to be a professional player you have to make sacrifices like time with your family, this is the case for any player and i dont think their isnt a player that would tell you any different.

"the gravest accusations relate to the club's alleged intimidation tactics to separate couples at the earliest stages of pregnancies and parenthood, and the alleged demand that one player should instruct his partner to terminate a pregnancy — actions the families say created multi-generational traumas"

this is most worst accusation, what were these intimidation tactics? and why arent they detailed in the article if they are know? It seems strange that a journalist wouldnt find out what these tactics were?

what does it mean the club instructed a player to terminate a pregnancy? maybe it was a case of the player talked to the club doctor who then said that 1 option is that an abortion, this would be the case that any doctor in Australia would tell you if he saw you were apprehensive or distraught

The most glaring part of this whole story is that non of the other Aboriginal players at the time seems to be aware of these stories. I mean if this is all true then i suspect through direct contact or through the grapevine these stories would have been made know to them somewhere along the way in the 10 years since. To me these stories seem to far fetched to be true or have been manipulated by journalists to sound like something they are not with people's words twisted to create a narrative?

Well said. Absolutely we need to wait for the outcome the investigation - in this age of social media people are so quick to form opinions and make judgements (prematurely). I also think the ABC fails time and again to meet its impartiality requirements under its Charter... the timing of this news piece alone is curious enough.

 

[Pt Augusta Power]

Heart of gold that journo, bless his soul. Encouraging Fagan to "get in front of the narrative" and all that no doubt.

Gave him a chance to respond to allegations.

People saying ‘didn’t get to hear both sides of the story- let’s wait’ well they did get a chance. They chose not to respond.

Their side of the story will likely be buried in some carefully constructed afl response

 

[Football Smith]

 

[Grave Danger]

View attachment 1514966

 

[Mr Experience]

You missed the point Incarnate was making. Spectacularly.

My post had nothing to do with his point. I was making a comment about Robinson.

 

[AFC AFeederClub]

Gave him a chance to respond to allegations.

People saying ‘didn’t get to hear both sides of the story- let’s wait’ well they did get a chance. They chose not to respond.

Their side of the story will likely be buried in some carefully constructed afl response

people wont respone to journalists because they have a nasty habit of selecting words and constructing narratives that suit their wants. Im sorry to disappoint you but the days of journalism being the case of someone laying down the facts for you to decide have gone a long time ago. If you arent able to construct your own narrative as a journalist you just dont have a job these days. A good experiment is go look at newspapers today and compare them to newspapers from 30 years ago, you would be surprised at how much they have changed from a journalism stand point. All the BS and points scoring that invade every article no-matter the subject just isnt there, you only have to look at kane & rucci for example, 30 years ago they would be run out of town.

 

[EskimoPAFC]

I don't think so, I think by reducing it to 'do something about deaths in custody' it paints an image of a custodial system that is unscrupulously racist, willfully causing death of aboriginal people at rates greater than others, rather than a social issue where aboriginal people are over represented in crime, leading to that.

Can only agree to disagree then.

I certainly don't think he is trying to frame it that way but can concede that it may be received that way by some people. We would probably disagree on the % of the population those people make up but clearly its not 0% or 100%.

 

[Powerage]

Gave him a chance to respond to allegations.

People saying ‘didn’t get to hear both sides of the story- let’s wait’ well they did get a chance. They chose not to respond.

Their side of the story will likely be buried in some carefully constructed afl response

Firstly I am not at all defending the behaviour of Fagan. If even half of the allegations turn out to be true I will be sickened and disgusted.

However what sort of idiot would trust a journalist with their response to allegations that the same journalist is publishing about them.

Fagan "Oh OK I see so this is the exact story you claim you are going to be publishing including the allegations you are making against me directly and you would like me to trust you with my answers to your cherry picked questions which you will include objectively and in their unedited form. OK, no worries. Lets begin. Have you got a recorder handy?"

 

[Powerage]

Wouldn’t expect any better from the patriarch of racism in AFL. Will never forget his comments re Goodes refer to him as a gorilla when the racist wobble girl issue came to fore

That whole affair was shocking however I think you have got the details more that a little skewed there. Calling the 13 year old teenager the racist wobble girl might not go down as the tipping point that ended racism and bigotry in our time either lol

 

[StrappingTape]

Do we know who did the actual review/investigation thing? Why would Hawthorn get an independent investigator in but then they don't actually get both sides?

A lot of this is Gil's own pushing of politics eating their own so it's enjoyable that way, what's not is the absolute mob mentality of those who for some reason hate Clarkson or through alignment with their personal views that Australia is racist or something want to nuke these guys to Saturn without seeing the report themselves nor waiting to see what the response is before firing the rocket. Apparently, that makes a whole lot of racists or defenders of racists.. that's the actual low IQ take away.

People defending the ABC journo's, the ABC types **** up all the time but personally he won't have to worry if something comes of it because the government will cover his costs. North's in the trickiest spot here, if they feel like they can't move forward with him but there's no provable allegation etc and they have that 5mil contract to get around, nightmare. We dodged a bullet here by being absolutely useless and mediocre at an admin level, this shit show would have written off next year already plus sponsorship issues.

 

[StrappingTape]

OH * OFF

The deaths in custody thing again, how to undercut an argument with a bullshit dog whistle. Aboriginal deaths in custody are not, or barely, within standard deviation, more common than non aboriginal in custody. The statistics do not backup that aboriginal people are disproportionately murdered in custody at all when you bother to look in to it and do comparisons. They are more likely to die of natural causes than non aboriginal, in custody.

If you are gonna reference the royal commission, do it properly.



Tony, you are better than this.

This is Tony's schtick though, he's gone from mediocre player to big TV career by becoming an activist so he's never going to let something like this go through. It's like lobbing a soft ball into Kane Cornes bread and butter about one of his pet topics, he's gonna cause all sorts of a ruckus.

 

[MrMeaner]

This is Tony's schtick though, he's gone from mediocre player to big TV career by becoming an activist so he's never going to let something like this go through. It's like lobbing a soft ball into Kane Cornes bread and butter about one of his pet topics, he's gonna cause all sorts of a ruckus.

No, he didn't. His star rose because he is good at what he does, being entertaining and generally likable. It's low standards but that's media.

The reason he's not going to let something like this go through, I presume, is because he feels that, having built his platform, he feels a responsibility to use it to inform his audience of perspectives like his.

You realise that this is part of the problem, right? Not recognising that Indigenous people can have success without becoming an 'activist', whatever the **** that means.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

What’s the problem in being “magic”?

Its a legacy thing - black magic. When the Krakouer brothers arrived at North in 1982 from Claremont, they had this 6th sense knowing where each other was on the field and found each other in tight and strange situations. Their flashy, highly skilled play and trickery, became known as black magic

Then when more indigenous players from WA, SA and NT came into the VFL and expanded VFL/AFL, the highly skilled ones who did the amazing stuff, were also referred to as having black magic, suggesting they got away with having an X-factor rather than doing the hard tough grinding stuff when footy at the top level was more one on one, more physical and more dirty.

I have used the phrase - vision of a black fella - on here maybe 20 times. A couple of times I have been called out for it being a racist comment.

Then I tell them where it came from. 15 years ago I read the great John Harms biography - The Pearl - about ex Brisbane Broncos, Queensland state of origin and Kangaroos Test rugby league player Steve Renouf. He was a winger and scored many great tries, many flashy tries in some unbelievable situations in his career. I lived in Sydney and SE Qld for nearly all of Renouf's career, and the Broncos being a dominate team, I saw a lot of his games on TV.

I have met John a few times, but a couple of mates are good friends of him and he is a great writer/story teller of sports and sports men and women. He's country Qld born, Geelong supporter, Qld mother, his fathers side of the family came from Geelong and John moved between Qld and Victoria in his youth a few time, so is an equal footy and rugby league fan and why he started up the The Footy Almanac — Write. From the Heart. which covers both codes.

Harms' book details the hard slog Steve Renouf had to do to make it from country Queensland town of Murgon where he had to overcome the usual prejudices and racial stereotyping of Australian country towns. Then when he's made it, he is diagnosed with type I diabetes when he's about 22.

In the book Harms asks Renouf why he thinks indigenous players (a lot of Torres Strait Islanders play rugby league in Qld, not just Aboriginals) are able to do the difficult things, across all sports, that get labelled as magic?

Renouf says he thinks its go to do with indigenous players still being close (in years/generations) to their hunter gather roots and that to hunt and survive you have to have great peripheral vision to see your pray, and he thinks that's why indigenous players can see openings and other little things in play, better than players of European descent.

So if you ever read a comment from me, that he has the vision of a black fella, it means a white fella has done a great bit of play using his peripheral vision and its a nod to Steve Renouf for explaining to me where indigenous players "magic" comes from.

 

[VineValerian]

So is this simply a case of:

1. one side, or the other, are lying
2. both sides are not 100% truthful and the real facts lie somewhere in the middle
3. both sides are hazy about the exact details and the truth is in the middle.

Guess all will be revealed in time.

If so, it could be debated that, in the above scenarios, based on the findings of the investigation:

1. the accused parties should never again hold any position in football, nor in any other sport, and face full legal penalties, OR the accusing parties should face the legal consequences for fabricating the narrative
2. the accused parties to still be forever banned, as above, since any such behaviour is inexcusable in this supposed age of enlightened thinking, AND the accusing parties should face some lesser sanction for exaggerating the facts to cause maximum harm
3. the accused parties still need to lose their current positions, and be banned for a minimum time frame, because the behaviours exhibited, whilst somewhat lesser in nature than originally presented, are still despicable, AND the accusing parties should probably escape sanction, as even though they may have overstated the facts, it was not deliberately done, plus the trauma they were under at the time would understandably have muddled their thoughts.

In every case though, you would think that the accused's careers would pretty much be done - other than if the story was a complete farrago of lies by their accusers (and anyway, what possible reason would lead 3 separate persons to make such a thing up, and also in such detail?).

We probably would expect that the accusers would, except if they deliberately fabricated the details (of course), be exonerated from blame, either entirely or significantly.

It ain't gonna be pretty, however it pans out, but you would have to think that any transgression on a subject such as this, either as stated or even partially so, will not be tolerated. Nor should it.

And those guilty will be punished.

Just hoping our club never did anything like this.
The Wingard revelations from years ago may have been because the club felt there would be a public backlash for bringing that incident to a visible state, and may have prompted more keyboard cowards to intensify their vitriol, rather than have the effect of removing it?
But history suggests that doesn't always work.