It isn't going to happen, but the one thing more than any other I wish still existed was each club maintaining - and playing at - its own home ground. And I wish South Melbourne and especially Fitzroy were a part of it. It really does suck that you have a whopping one team in Victoria (Geelong) with a genuine home ground, that's 90% or more their own fans. Technically Melbourne do as well, but because everyone has played at the MCG a million times it's far more diluted. It would be incredible if every single team had that. Completely understand the grounds would need to support x number of fans etc., that's the reality, but it would be a great thing nevertheless.
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Opinion Hypothetical, Back to pre nationalisation. What's your opinion?
- Thread starter Carringbush2010
- Start date
- Tagged users None
It isn't going to happen, but the one thing more than any other I wish still existed was each club maintaining - and playing at - its own home ground. And I wish South Melbourne and especially Fitzroy were a part of it. It really does suck that you have a whopping one team in Victoria (Geelong) with a genuine home ground, that's 90% or more their own fans. Technically Melbourne do as well, but because everyone has played at the MCG a million times it's far more diluted. It would be incredible if every single team had that. Completely understand the grounds would need to support x number of fans etc., that's the reality, but it would be a great thing nevertheless.
VFL would still be huge and I'd support it just as passionately but a national comp adds that greater interest and scale.
- Thread starter
- #53
Yes it'd be nice to have a national comp, something we don't have.
What we do have is an expanded vfl, an expanded vfl where the clubs have to leave the state to play, not ideal for their fans and members.
IF we didn't have an expanded vfl and just a vfl, wafl, sanfl, tfl, ntfl, qfl, it'd be better for the fans and members.
OK, so back to the beginning. Assuming post-1987 leagues were still as they were pre-1981. No Sydney, Bears or West Coast. And that no national league formed later either (it would have, but that's not the original premise); or other interstate relocations.
With all those predicates in mind; that there was no realistic possibility, one hypothetical among many others :
South fold, creating a bye in the VFL, potentially as early as 1981. Port Melbourne consider jumping to the VFL but decide against it as the league is too unstable and its seen they may end up talking their clubs under with them.
Needing to stabilise the sport in the state or both risk going belly-up, the VFA and VFL potentially move into a promotion-relegation system with the second tier continuing to dominate Sunday and the top tier Saturday. If that happened it would have hampered club growth, but possibly would have revitalised both competitions. if that structure happened, some more non-Melbourne teams would have been able to join; Ballarat and Bendigo probably surviving.
The VFL's draft proves to be a failure, as it was in the early days, with many players drafted and then choosing to stay in their home state's league. Or just getting more money in the SANFL.
The introduction of a salary doesn't stop St Kilda, Richmond and North from struggling to stay afloat - even with not very many players become full time in the VFL (or a successor league) until the mid 1990s.
In a failed attempt to win over fans without a team the North Melbourne Swans play from 1986, the same year as Fitzroy-Coburg Lions take to the field.
Without the Broadcom money or West Coast and Bears licence fees to help, Collingwood go broke, and a new club playing at Victoria Park, wearing black and white, adopting the Collingwood and Magpie monikers, but not at all the same entity according to the accountants and lawyers, take to the field for the first time in 1988. Multiple directors are found guilty of trading while insolvent.
Forced into a fire sale, the league sells its only tangible asset - VFL Park - for sod all, just a few years before the property boom begins in the mid 1990s. No stadium is built to replace it.
The St Kilda Tigers merger in 1991 remains the last for a while. Melbourne Hawks still does not happen; while revenues are lower, so are the expenses in keeping a club running.
In the VFL's doldrum years the SANFL pushes on, and maintains more than healthy attendances. It becomes the most financially stable of the leagues until the VFL (or its successor) rights itself.
But eventually the weight of not having the population growth of with Vic or WA take its toll and the SANFL probably drops to third financially and on field but still pulls much better crowds than it does in the real universe. it may even stay above WAFL financially. However, Woodville and West Torrens still merge.
The Vics start to flex the advantage of size, and bring in more players from SA and WA. Not to the extent the AFL was able to do, but more than in the pre-Crows (Crows don't exist in this universe) era.
Tasmania still forms a state league in 1986, but still loses it again and has it resurrected again, and loses it again (as is actually happening next year because **** knows why other than both AFL Tas and the AFL themselves love to re-screw everything every few years).
By the early 2000s, as air fares drop in real terms, Queensland puts together a state league as the top couple of teams from the Cairns league (which by some reports was just about as strong as the QAFL pre Brisbane moving to Brisbane) join the top teams from SEQ.
Many players play both a winter league and the NTFL over summer, making the NT league really quite strong for its small population.
The game does not gain any significant foothold in Sydney, and further loses relevance in the ACT and surrounds without a high profile professional league.
State of Origin remains massive, and while population dictates Victoria begins to dominate they still do get beaten sometimes in carnivals.
In the absence of a national league, a post-season champions league occurs in October. Which the competing teams take seriously, and again VFL sides win most - but not all - of the time. Run by Kerry Packer's Nine network "World Series Football", as some media dubs it, is the most lucrative of the competitions.
With all those predicates in mind; that there was no realistic possibility, one hypothetical among many others :
South fold, creating a bye in the VFL, potentially as early as 1981. Port Melbourne consider jumping to the VFL but decide against it as the league is too unstable and its seen they may end up talking their clubs under with them.
Needing to stabilise the sport in the state or both risk going belly-up, the VFA and VFL potentially move into a promotion-relegation system with the second tier continuing to dominate Sunday and the top tier Saturday. If that happened it would have hampered club growth, but possibly would have revitalised both competitions. if that structure happened, some more non-Melbourne teams would have been able to join; Ballarat and Bendigo probably surviving.
The VFL's draft proves to be a failure, as it was in the early days, with many players drafted and then choosing to stay in their home state's league. Or just getting more money in the SANFL.
The introduction of a salary doesn't stop St Kilda, Richmond and North from struggling to stay afloat - even with not very many players become full time in the VFL (or a successor league) until the mid 1990s.
In a failed attempt to win over fans without a team the North Melbourne Swans play from 1986, the same year as Fitzroy-Coburg Lions take to the field.
Without the Broadcom money or West Coast and Bears licence fees to help, Collingwood go broke, and a new club playing at Victoria Park, wearing black and white, adopting the Collingwood and Magpie monikers, but not at all the same entity according to the accountants and lawyers, take to the field for the first time in 1988. Multiple directors are found guilty of trading while insolvent.
Forced into a fire sale, the league sells its only tangible asset - VFL Park - for sod all, just a few years before the property boom begins in the mid 1990s. No stadium is built to replace it.
The St Kilda Tigers merger in 1991 remains the last for a while. Melbourne Hawks still does not happen; while revenues are lower, so are the expenses in keeping a club running.
In the VFL's doldrum years the SANFL pushes on, and maintains more than healthy attendances. It becomes the most financially stable of the leagues until the VFL (or its successor) rights itself.
But eventually the weight of not having the population growth of with Vic or WA take its toll and the SANFL probably drops to third financially and on field but still pulls much better crowds than it does in the real universe. it may even stay above WAFL financially. However, Woodville and West Torrens still merge.
The Vics start to flex the advantage of size, and bring in more players from SA and WA. Not to the extent the AFL was able to do, but more than in the pre-Crows (Crows don't exist in this universe) era.
Tasmania still forms a state league in 1986, but still loses it again and has it resurrected again, and loses it again (as is actually happening next year because **** knows why other than both AFL Tas and the AFL themselves love to re-screw everything every few years).
By the early 2000s, as air fares drop in real terms, Queensland puts together a state league as the top couple of teams from the Cairns league (which by some reports was just about as strong as the QAFL pre Brisbane moving to Brisbane) join the top teams from SEQ.
Many players play both a winter league and the NTFL over summer, making the NT league really quite strong for its small population.
The game does not gain any significant foothold in Sydney, and further loses relevance in the ACT and surrounds without a high profile professional league.
State of Origin remains massive, and while population dictates Victoria begins to dominate they still do get beaten sometimes in carnivals.
In the absence of a national league, a post-season champions league occurs in October. Which the competing teams take seriously, and again VFL sides win most - but not all - of the time. Run by Kerry Packer's Nine network "World Series Football", as some media dubs it, is the most lucrative of the competitions.
You are displaying a lack of knowledge of the dire straits the VFL was in back in 1986. The expansion was the only thing thatsaved the VFL and 7 of the 12 VFL clubs (including your club Richmond) from being shut down part way during the 1986 season because they were trading while insolvent.
Read the following, it explains it better than I can. Don't overlook the part that says "Victorian fans can thank Brisbane and West Coast - which joined the competition in 1987 - for effectively saving the league." It always gives me pleasure that part
Also watch "The Merge" on YouTube.
Saving football: New documents reveal how close the VFL came to shutting down
In 1986, the Victorian Football League came perilously close to being shut down. Thirty years on, never before seen documents reveal how close the end nearly came.
you really don't understand that it was only the prospect of the Bears and WCE $8 million in licence fees that stopped the Victorian Commissioner for Corporate Affairs from, part way through the 1986 season, completely shutting down the VFL, and 7 of its clubs (including your club Collingwood) which were trading while insolvent.
This article appeared in the Age in 2016 and explains it.
Take note of what it says about who Victorian supporters should be thankful to, it always gives me a great deal of satisfaction every time I read it.
Despite that, I wish we'd have waited a year and let natural attrition reduce the number of clubs in Melbourne and we may have ended up with a more balanced and less Vic-centric national competitionSaving football: New documents reveal how close the VFL came to shutting down
In 1986, the Victorian Football League came perilously close to being shut down. Thirty years on, never before seen documents reveal how close the end nearly came.
should also have said that you've learned nothing from history. If we went back to the old state based comps with yy days of no draft, no salary cap the same thing that almost killed the VFL would recur. Clubs would be trying to recruit the best players from interstate and the escalation in transfer fees and player payments would send the clubs broke.
the national competition would be so much better if one of 2 things happened...
Firstly, if the AFL got rid of its "they shall survive" attitude towards the non-viable Melbourne based clubs in Melbourne, NM, WB and STK who only survive because of the AFL's 'disequal distribution' model which is just a fancy name for prop-up funding. In the original discussions in 1986 with the Vic commissioner of Corporate Affairs who was on the verge of shutting down the VFL competition because both the VFL, and 7 of its clubs were trading while insolvent, the Commissioner was told 2 things.. firstly, that Fitzroy, StK, NM and Melbourne would seek to merge with one another or other teams and yet, other than Fitzroy, the others still exist purely through being propped up!
The second thing was the VFL was expanding and each club would get $666, 000 from the licence fees. That is ultimately what saved the VFL from having no GF in 1986.
To get back to the point of the post, or the question... it was transfer costs and big player payments that created the financial woes, not just in VFL but certainly also in the WAFL where clubs had to meet increased player payments to stop them going east.
This is where reverting to the old days and competitions wouldn't work. It would just lead to the same financial issues as before which was what created the need for expansion and led to the VFL becoming insolvent in the first place, along with Richmond, Pies, NM, Melbourne, Footscray and Geelong.
So no, I don't think it is a good idea and I think the AFL shouldn't prop anyone up, which would certainly see less Melbourne based teams and result in a more elite and equitable national competition.
You are displaying a lack of knowledge of the dire straits the VFL was in back in 1986. The expansion was the only thing thatsaved the VFL and 7 of the 12 VFL clubs (including your club Richmond) from being shut down part way during the 1986 season because they were trading while insolvent.
Read the following, it explains it better than I can. Don't overlook the part that says "Victorian fans can thank Brisbane and West Coast - which joined the competition in 1987 - for effectively saving the league." It always gives me pleasure that part
Also watch "The Merge" on YouTube.
Saving football: New documents reveal how close the VFL came to shutting down
In 1986, the Victorian Football League came perilously close to being shut down. Thirty years on, never before seen documents reveal how close the end nearly came.www.theage.com.au
Newsflash, its 2024 now.
VFL would be fine now if it went that way with the 10 existing teams.
The market has changed.
- Thread starter
- #60
A/ Everyone knows expansion was necessary to save it. No arguments
B/ I never mentioned anything about salary caps or any other equalisation methods shouldn't be employed
C/ All I'm saying is, it would be better for the fans to follow their top tier local leagues. To do away with travel, media bias etc.
I disagree, run the AFL as a proper business where clubs all receive the same $ distribution each year. Natural attrition will see the number of clubs reduced until we are left with a competition that will be equitable to all ie: 2 full rounds of H&A fixtures, Vic based clubs travelling to every state twice a year, the end of marquee matches compromising the fixture.
As for Salary caps and equalisation, if we returned to State based comps, does that also mean the return of transfer fees if, for example, a VFL club wanted to recruit a WAFL player? I can tell you that the WAFL clubs wouldn't be allowing free drafting of their players to another state based competition, there would be a hefty price to pay. The same situation would take place within each of the state leagues. And the biggest question is... how would all this be funded?
- Moderator
- #62
And not just in Melbourne.
No it wouldn't be fine. The market has changed and a large portion of the money brought in is off the back of the broadcasting rights which are only as lucrative as they are because of the numbers watching nationally. Reverting to state based competitions would reduce the 'national' interest and the numbers watching.
Additionally, the AFL would have to payout the WAFC and Port Adelaide and Adelaide licence fees at market value plus lost income from the dividends the WAFC will no longer receive, and the AFL would have to sell Marvel Stadium as it is an AFL, not VFL, asset. Additionally, the AFL would get its butt sued by the MCG Trust and probably the Vic Govt for breach of contract for breaking its long term contract.
All other AFL assets are equally owned by the clubs and would need to be "realised" and the proceeds equally shared.
It is a legal minefield that would take years and cost millions to resolve..
I'm not sure you have thought it through clearly and logically, and unlike a national competition, do you think in a resurrected VFL, the big clubs would happily prop up the unviable clubs? I think it would be dog eat dog!
WesternSydneyHawk
Debutant
- Mar 19, 2023
- 94
- 189
- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
Assuming the state leagues continued to the present day, you could have something like the Championships of Australia ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Championship_of_Australia ) or the NFL Night Series ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_Night_Serie s) to crown a national champion.
This would allow you to continue to have the state leagues, alongside both a national club tournament and state of origin as national competitions.
This would allow you to continue to have the state leagues, alongside both a national club tournament and state of origin as national competitions.
Should’ve merged the three leagues.
In the final year of state leagues, the bottom two VFL clubs relegated to the SANFL.
The bottom two SANFL clubs relegated to the WAFL.
You then have three divisions of 10. Play every team home and away. Promotion and relegation annually between wooden spooners and premiers.
Over the coming decades you build that out to three divisions of 12 by adding Sydney, GWS, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Tassie and Canberra.
3 divisions, 36 clubs, play everybody home and away for an even 22 round competition, premiers go up and spooners go down.
In the final year of state leagues, the bottom two VFL clubs relegated to the SANFL.
The bottom two SANFL clubs relegated to the WAFL.
You then have three divisions of 10. Play every team home and away. Promotion and relegation annually between wooden spooners and premiers.
Over the coming decades you build that out to three divisions of 12 by adding Sydney, GWS, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Tassie and Canberra.
3 divisions, 36 clubs, play everybody home and away for an even 22 round competition, premiers go up and spooners go down.
- Thread starter
- #66
'Natural attrition' means losing clubs, the smallest club in melb has 50k members, and probably 100k fans.
The government of the game ain't gonna give that up for 'fairness'
The lowest in the whole comp has roughly 20k (not sure but roughly)
Every single league on the planet has stronger and weaker clubs, doesn't mean we should advocate for culling them off in the name of fairness. 'Survival of the fittest' of the current AFL would probably mean you'd have half a dozen clubs and millions of fans lost from it.
Your idea is not a good one.
If we went back to state leagues it wouldn't be the same as it was then, all the equalization measures that weren't around then would be now, the leagues would thrive.
The AFL can be the government of the game and the state leagues can be funded by them, the product produced (revenue) from the state leagues would go to the coffers and then distributed to the leagues and clubs, as it does now.
- Thread starter
- #67
And probably more than half a million paying fans and members, and that's being lenient.
This is why HQ have, as you put it, 'they shall survive' attitude.
You gotta remember, it's not just a case of cull the club and all their fans and members will accept it.
In your ideal, the clubs would either fold = those fans are lost from the game
or
The clubs would be relegated / moved to another competition = fans follow where they go.
It ain't happenin.
WesternSydneyHawk
Debutant
- Mar 19, 2023
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- Hawthorn
It's not just the smaller Vic clubs that would go under with natural attrition.
Without support from the AFL, the Sydney Swans likely would have gone under sometime around '92.
The same thing would have happened at various points to Brisbane.
Instead of falling by the wayside, the Swans played a Prelim in front of a packed SCG last weekend, and will play a grand final against Brisbane on Saturday.
By natural attrition, GWS and Gold Coast probably don't survive. Again, that would hurt the growth of the game in Western Sydney and Southeast Queensland over the coming decades.
Of the Melbourne clubs, a club like North or St Kilda going under would be a huge win — for the Melbourne Storm and the A League.
you really don't understand that it was only the prospect of the Bears and WCE $8 million in licence fees that stopped the Victorian Commissioner for Corporate Affairs from, part way through the 1986 season, completely shutting down the VFL, and 7 of its clubs (including your club Collingwood) which were trading while insolvent.
This article appeared in the Age in 2016 and explains it.
Take note of what it says about who Victorian supporters should be thankful to, it always gives me a great deal of satisfaction every time I read it.Despite that, I wish we'd have waited a year and let natural attrition reduce the number of clubs in Melbourne and we may have ended up with a more balanced and less Vic-centric national competition
Saving football: New documents reveal how close the VFL came to shutting down
In 1986, the Victorian Football League came perilously close to being shut down. Thirty years on, never before seen documents reveal how close the end nearly came.
Despite that, I wish we'd have waited a year and let natural attrition reduce the number of clubs in Melbourne and we may have ended up with a more balanced and less Vic-centric national competitionIt’s a great thing to say 30 years after the fact to make you sound more important than you actually were, but the idea that the State gov would’ve allowed the comp (and all the revenue they got from it) to be shut down is laughable. Even if they attempted that, deals like Fitzroy’s with Hecron would’ve gone thru with similar deals likely with the other clubs. All that action would’ve achieved is brought in private ownership to the Vic clubs on a wider scale, ironically under a Labor government.
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No, the AFL sacrificed Fitzroy, so what makes the case of NM, STK, Melbourne and WB so special? Ideally, 2 of those 4 should have been relocated to GC and GWS rather than create 2 more dependent teams. The other 2 to merge. We'd have 7 teams in Vic (non of them dependent on prop-up funding, and 8 interstate plus Tassie... a much better distribution. The biggie, had the AFL gone down that path, since the inception of GC & GWS, would also have saved at least Half a BILLION dollars in the process.
The AFL like to think they are a big business, which they should be, but sadly, they operate like Centrelink doling out money to the needy. 8 of the current 18 clubs rely on prop-up funding ... the 4 Melb based clubs, and the 4 northern clubs...
I would like to still to the NRL funding model which sees all clubs receive the same funding which is basically equal to the salary cap.
Personally I think most clubs membership numbers are inflated. The only ones that really matter are bums on seats, and clearly Clubs like Pies, WCE and Richmond do not have 100,000 bums on seats.
My real question is, if they have the membership numbers you say, why do those clubs regularly get only 25000 or less to their home games? Eg: WB v WC 22,000, NM v FD 19,000, WB v StK 26,700, NM v Hawks 36,000, StK v NM 27,000, WB v Hawks 29,500, StK v FD 19,000 all at Marvel this season. Those numbers are frankly pathetic.
Even the famed 100,000 strong "Tiger Army" could only muster 34,000 to the final game of the season to farewell perhaps their greatest ever player in Dusty, and another stalwart in Grimes. It was a disgrace that more couldn't be bothered. Compare it to the number of WCE fans that turned up to farewell guys like Kennedy, Hurn, Gaff and Naitanui in recent years.
Closer to home, the NRL shuts clubs down or forces them to merge if they can't support themselves. Do you think the people running the EPL would prop up non-viable clubs? If the iconic Brooklyn Dodgers could move to LA and the NY Giants to San Francisco then sure as hell WB, NM, Melbourne or StK could have gone to GC or GWS.
People wouldn't accept it, Optus Stadium would go broke. I can't help but think this whole thing is driven by the fact that you don't like that you can't watch your team live every week despite them travelling far less than any of the interstate clubs. Anyway, it just ain't gonna happen!
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