If We Got Cameron, How Come.....

[CatToTheFuture]

There's a place for some older players, but I'm of the belief that the pendulum has swung a little too far that way, and we need to restore some of the lost focus on youth.

I understand the club thought it had a window that could be leveraged with experienced players, but it hasn't worked, and I think they should now turn to preferring some youth as the window is now all but shut.

Yeah, I'd want to compare the crows and North though. North don't have a cohesive structure of older players holding it together and they're a mess. The crows have the old guard who are scratching out done wins in their favour.

I could imagine a player requesting a trade to the crows, I couldn't imagine anyone requesting a trade to North. We want to attract free agents and trade targets we need to win games and that means getting extra years from a few older legs

 

[Cataholic]

Yeah, I'd want to compare the crows and North though. North don't have a cohesive structure of older players holding it together and they're a mess. The crows have the old guard who are scratching out done wins in their favour.

I could imagine a player requesting a trade to the crows, I couldn't imagine anyone requesting a trade to North. We want to attract free agents and trade targets we need to win games and that means getting extra years from a few older legs

I struggle to see that our older recruits have done any more than keep us 'thereabouts', and I don't believe they've really enhanced our chances as a legitimate flag contender when all is said and done.

Yes, we made the big dance last year, but we were never going to win it, and with that the window slammed shut.

We invested heavily in the here and now, but I think we've missed our chance with this group.

I can understand the Cameron recruitment, but I think the timing may be out for both parties.

Now we have Selwood, Danger, Hawkins, Rohan, Dahl, Stanley, Hendo and Tuohy all retiring in the next year or two, a deplorable ruck situation, and not a lot of kids putting their hands up.

Some will say 'cue the older recruits' but that will only prolong the inevitable. There simply has to be a movement in emphasis from old guys to youth imo.

That won't be easy given our access to draft picks, but we've got to use what we get on more kids, not funding retirements.

 

[ninjahcat]

What do we lose? Two prime agers Hamling and Gardiner both were denied their chance and now ply there trade at other clubs. Even Wiley had his look.

yeah losing one of those guys who have developed I can stomach but two of them? Looks like poor decisions...we could have kept them on as rookies.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

I struggle to see that our older recruits have done any more than keep us 'thereabouts', and I don't believe they've really enhanced our chances as a legitimate flag contender when all is said and done.

Yes, we made the big dance last year, but we were never going to win it, and with that the window slammed shut.

We invested heavily in the here and now, but I think we've missed our chance with this group.

I can understand the Cameron recruitment, but I think the timing may be out for both parties.

Now we have Selwood, Danger, Hawkins, Rohan, Dahl, Stanley, Hendo and Tuohy all retiring in the next year or two, a deplorable ruck situation, and not a lot of kids putting their hands up.

Some will say 'cue the older recruits' but that will only prolong the inevitable. There simply has to be a movement in emphasis from old guys to youth imo.

That won't be easy given our access to draft picks, but we've got to use what we get on more kids, not funding retirements.

I disagree that we were never going to win it last year. Take out Dusty and it flips the outcome completely. 2019 we were up at half time with Lachie Henderson at key forward.

If you take away all the trade ins we've taken over the years and draft instead then we're just a middling team. The draft does not add enough talent to consistently make worse teams better.

 

[cats_09]

yeah losing one of those guys who have developed I can stomach but two of them? Looks like poor decisions...we could have kept them on as rookies.

Weren't we going to rookie list Hamling, but the Bulldogs picked him up as a delisted free agent before we had the chance to rookie list him

 

[feelinfeline]

I disagree that we were never going to win it last year. Take out Dusty and it flips the outcome completely. 2019 we were up at half time with Lachie Henderson at key forward.

If you take away all the trade ins we've taken over the years and draft instead then we're just a middling team. The draft does not add enough talent to consistently make worse teams better.

Yep, take out Dusty and maybe they wouldn’t have even won one flag.

Sadly for us (and the other teams) you can’t take out Dusty.

But, yes, there’s no guarantees with the draft.

 

[Partridge]

I disagree that we were never going to win it last year. Take out Dusty and it flips the outcome completely. 2019 we were up at half time with Lachie Henderson at key forward.

If you take away all the trade ins we've taken over the years and draft instead then we're just a middling team. The draft does not add enough talent to consistently make worse teams better.

Unlike say Richmond, who went from being a consistently poor team to a powerhouse by.............drafting.

 

[feelinfeline]

Unlike say Richmond, who went from being a consistently poor team to a powerhouse by.............drafting.

Yep, took them almost 30 years (being kind and starting from the AFL era) but eventually they got a flag.

How many rebuilds and coaches did it take?

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Unlike say Richmond, who went from being a consistently poor team to a powerhouse by.............drafting.

I disagree on that point too. 2016 they added Bolton and Garthwaite through the draft yes but neither of those two had a hand in the 2017 premiership where they went from a joke to premiers. They traded in Nankervis, Caddy, and Prestia though. Their starting ruck and two of their starting 5 mids for their 2017 premiership. Then do they get Lynch without being the 2017 premiers? Do they get 2019 or 2020 without Lynch? I think you take away their trading and free agency acquisitions they're a reasonable argument they don't get a single one of those 3 premierships.

You still need to add the bulk of your players via the draft and you really need to nail your draft hand, but the draft does not provide enough talent to make your list better than anyone else's list when everyone has access to the draft.

 

[catempire]

Unlike say Richmond, who went from being a consistently poor team to a powerhouse by.............drafting.

Drafting plus...

Houli
Townsend
Grigg
Lynch
Caddy
Prestia
Nankervis

Yes, but apart from that, drafting.

 

[Catman]

Yep, took them almost 30 years (being kind and starting from the AFL era) but eventually they got a flag.

How many rebuilds and coaches did it take?

It's worked so well for Melbourne, St. Kilda and Carlton too....

 

[Partridge]

Yep, took them almost 30 years (being kind and starting from the AFL era) but eventually they got a flag.

How many rebuilds and coaches did it take?

Well given we went through an even longer drought, you would imagine we'd understand that - shock, horror - you actually have to do draft and develop well. You obviously can't just pick players and think the job is done. Which I think is exactly what Melbourne, Carlton, St.Kilda did, and Richmond did for a time. I think the difference was, Richmond eventually realised (like Geelong before them) drafting is only the first step, after that you still need good development as well, then the hardest part - patience. Most clubs just don't have it. We did, Richmond did. Remains to be seen who else may have it now.

 

[Partridge]

It's worked so well for Melbourne, St. Kilda and Carlton too....

Yes. That's the argument. Because some teams do it badly no one should do it at all.

 

[Partridge]

Drafting plus...

Houli
Townsend
Grigg
Lynch
Caddy
Prestia
Nankervis

Yes, but apart from that, drafting.

Yeah it's a pretty dodgy mechanism, it only accounted for....

Martin
Edwards
Lambert
Cotchin
Vlastuin
Graham
Riewoldt
Ellis
Broad
Rance
Rioli
Castagna
McIntosh
Butler
Astbury
Grimes
Pickett
Short
Baker
Bolton
Soldo
Balta

It would seem that out of 29 premiership players, 22 came from some mysterious non-trading source.

So obviously, trading and topping up is the way to go.

And there are no guarantees in drafting.

 

[rocker_oz33]

We play better with a CHF forward type.
Some quicker ball movement would help aswell.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Friday nights are a hoot. Multiple threads with the drafting piffle.

So much unnecessary angst over trading. All clubs aiming to win the big prize trade in players to complement their drafted players.

To that end, and to remain on topic, does Jeremy Cameron do that? I would say the answer is highly likely to be yes. Coleman medalists don’t grow on trees. Hawkins has been our rock for ages and only just got his first Coleman medal after the age of 30. They are hard to find and if one stumbles your way you get the trade done. To that end who gives a **** what it means to Kreuger? Unlikely to make it anyway.

Drafting plus...

Houli
Townsend
Grigg
Lynch
Caddy
Prestia
Nankervis

Yes, but apart from that, drafting.

Based off my nominal best 22. Fitness status not considered.

Henry Blicavs Bews
Stewart Henderson O’Connor
Clark Selwood Menegola
Higgins Cameron Smith
Miers Hawkins Parfitt
Stanley Dangerfield Duncan
Kolodjashnij Tuohy Rohan Guthrie

Is this mix for our side over the top for ‘imported’ talent v drafted? Not imo and I am not being unfair imo to include Menegola among draftees despite prior stints elsewhere. He was selected in the ND by Geelong. Some of those were cheap trades or FA too so not exactly expending much for their services.

 

[Whit3y]

We have a very specific record relating developing KPP players and KPF's. A ordinary one.

But we have Wells. Are you saying his not as good as we all think?

 

[Cataholic]

I disagree that we were never going to win it last year. Take out Dusty and it flips the outcome completely. 2019 we were up at half time with Lachie Henderson at key forward.

If you take away all the trade ins we've taken over the years and draft instead then we're just a middling team. The draft does not add enough talent to consistently make worse teams better.

But Dusty WAS there, and the result was inevitable because of that, the fact that their game plan was / is superior to ours, and they had / have superior fitness and speed.

 

[catempire]

Yeah it's a pretty dodgy mechanism, it only accounted for....

Martin
Edwards
Lambert
Cotchin
Vlastuin
Graham
Riewoldt
Ellis
Broad
Rance
Rioli
Castagna
McIntosh
Butler
Astbury
Grimes
Pickett
Short
Baker
Bolton
Soldo
Balta

It would seem that out of 29 premiership players, 22 came from some mysterious non-trading source.

So obviously, trading and topping up is the way to go.

And there are no guarantees in drafting.

So pure. Much Drafting. No Evil Trading

 

[catempire]

Friday nights are a hoot. Multiple threads with the drafting piffle.

So much unnecessary angst over trading. All clubs aiming to win the big prize trade in players to complement their drafted players.

To that end, and to remain on topic, does Jeremy Cameron do that? I would say the answer is highly likely to be yes. Coleman medalists don’t grow on trees. Hawkins has been our rock for ages and only just got his first Coleman medal after the age of 30. They are hard to find and if one stumbles your way you get the trade done. To that end who gives a fu** what it means to Kreuger? Unlikely to make it anyway.



Based off my nominal best 22. Fitness status not considered.

Henry Blicavs Bews
Stewart Henderson O’Connor
Clark Selwood Menegola
Higgins Cameron Smith
Miers Hawkins Parfitt
Stanley Dangerfield Duncan
Kolodjashnij Tuohy Rohan Guthrie

Is this mix for our side over the top for ‘imported’ talent v drafted? Not imo and I am not being unfair imo to include Menegola among draftees despite prior stints elsewhere. He was selected in the ND by Geelong. Some of those were cheap trades or FA too so not exactly expending much for their services.

Non Core Mercenaries

 

[Cataholic]

Yeah it's a pretty dodgy mechanism, it only accounted for....

Martin
Edwards
Lambert
Cotchin
Vlastuin
Graham
Riewoldt
Ellis
Broad
Rance
Rioli
Castagna
McIntosh
Butler
Astbury
Grimes
Pickett
Short
Baker
Bolton
Soldo
Balta

It would seem that out of 29 premiership players, 22 came from some mysterious non-trading source.

So obviously, trading and topping up is the way to go.

And there are no guarantees in drafting.

Trading / topping up, whatever you want to call it, should be a mechanism used sparingly, and wisely, to enhance a list built through drafting imo.

 

[Baudolino]

For the sake of reference, here's the number of trade-ins for every premiership team since 2012. We had 7 trade-ins in our 22 in the Grand Final last year, which is well within the normal range of every premiership-winning team of the last decade. That's not to suggest our list construction method has been identical to these teams, or that our recruitment philosophy hasn't had differences, but the idea that we've been wildly outside some kind of "draft only" norm in our approach is false.

Sydney 2012 (6 of 22 traded in)

Kennedy
Richards
Mattner
Shaw
Mumford
Morton

Hawthorn 2013 (7 of 22 traded in)

Burgoyne
Guerra
Gibson
Hale
Gunston
Lake
Simpkin

Hawthorn 2014 (7 of 22 traded in)

Burgoyne
Gibson
Gunston
Hale
Lake
Spangher
McEvoy

Hawthorn 2015 (7 of 22 traded in)

Burgoyne
Gibson
Gunston
Hale
Lake
McEvoy
Frawley

Bulldogs 2016 (2 of 22 traded in)

Boyd
Biggs

Richmond 2017 (6 of 22 traded in)

Grigg
Houli
Nankervis
Caddy
Prestia
Townsend

West Coast 2018 (6 of 22 traded in)

Kennedy
Cripps
Yeo
Redden
Jetta
Vardy

Richmond 2019 (5 of 22 traded in)

Houli
Caddy
Prestia
Nankervis
Lynch

Richmond 2020 (4 of 22 traded in)

Houli
Nankervis
Prestia
Lynch

 

[ATSAM]

We play better with a CHF forward type.
Some quicker ball movement would help aswell.

And yet watching osmemo9f last nights game WC did a good job of mimicking us. Slow short kicks across the back line slowly moving it forward. Think our problem is between the ears or perhaps between Chris Scott's long untidy hair and beard

 

[feelinfeline]

Well given we went through an even longer drought, you would imagine we'd understand that - shock, horror - you actually have to do draft and develop well. You obviously can't just pick players and think the job is done. Which I think is exactly what Melbourne, Carlton, St.Kilda did, and Richmond did for a time. I think the difference was, Richmond eventually realised (like Geelong before them) drafting is only the first step, after that you still need good development as well, then the hardest part - patience. Most clubs just don't have it. We did, Richmond did. Remains to be seen who else may have it now.

I don't think patience was the key to Richmond's success. From what I've read their change in fortunes came from a fundamental change in their mental approach to the game in 2017, from the top to the bottom.

So ultimately it wasn't primarily about drafting, development or trading (or fitness for that matter). They are obviously crucial but without the right mindset they won't lead to success.

If they'd stuck to the same approach, patience would have got them nowhere.

 

[Cataholic]

For the sake of reference, here's the number of trade-ins for every premiership team since 2012. We had 7 trade-ins in our 22 in the Grand Final last year, which is well within the normal range of every premiership-winning team of the last decade. That's not to suggest our list construction method has been identical to these teams, or that our recruitment philosophy hasn't had differences, but the idea that we've been wildly outside some kind of "draft only" norm in our approach is false.

Sydney 2012 (6 of 22 traded in)

Kennedy
Richards
Mattner
Shaw
Mumford
Morton

Hawthorn 2013 (7 of 22 traded in)

Burgoyne
Guerra
Gibson
Hale
Gunston
Lake
Simpkin

Hawthorn 2014 (7 of 22 traded in)

Burgoyne
Gibson
Gunston
Hale
Lake
Spangher
McEvoy

Hawthorn 2015 (7 of 22 traded in)

Burgoyne
Gibson
Gunston
Hale
Lake
McEvoy
Frawley

Bulldogs 2016 (2 of 22 traded in)

Boyd
Biggs

Richmond 2017 (6 of 22 traded in)

Grigg
Houli
Nankervis
Caddy
Prestia
Townsend

West Coast 2018 (6 of 22 traded in)

Kennedy
Cripps
Yeo
Redden
Jetta
Vardy

Richmond 2019 (5 of 22 traded in)

Houli
Caddy
Prestia
Nankervis
Lynch

Richmond 2020 (4 of 22 traded in)

Houli
Nankervis
Prestia
Lynch

Interesting. Thanks.

Do you have an age profile for each of the starting teams?