- Nov 27, 2016
- 18,671
- 36,381
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Roast Inner Feral Fan Unleashed - Warning - Unbridled, passionate, and objectionable opinions within
- Thread starter The Old Dark Navy's
- Start date
- Tagged users None
Yep lets get rid of a Coleman medallist who is not even 25 years old just as we think we are about to hit our straps and replace him with 2 unknown kids.
- Oct 4, 2018
- 10,619
- 26,743
- AFL Club
- Carlton
- Other Teams
- Arsenal & NY Knicks
And then complain in 5 years when the top draft picks don't meet our lofty expectations
2 1st rounders this year? Which 2 players are you taking in the draft, say pick 5 and 7
Just hypothetically, would be using your 5,7 and our own 11 or 12. KPF (if traded big H), X-factor hybrid and a runner/distributor. Cadman, Phillipou/Humphrey, Hollands.
Big test of Harry’s resolve if rumours are correct a big difference between $800k and $1.5 million per year.
Fair question. I need a little more think time. Really like Sheezel but he's probably gone by then. I have a reasonable track record in phantoms. Took LDU over Dow back in the day. So 5,7 and 11. OK leave it with me.
1.5m, who what where????
Time is now, if we want a flag or 2 in next 4 years when the list is still in prime
Although Doc and Crippa are getting old and so are 2 or 3 others
You don't give up H for 2 first rounders, especially when even if they are good Crippa will be 35 and Doc 40
You lock in H and TDK and get one or two trades in to have a serious tilt at a flag starting next year
I am very happy if we use our first for another Cerra or Hew type
And yes we want a serious tilt at a flag nxt year and not to just make the 8
Although Doc and Crippa are getting old and so are 2 or 3 others
You don't give up H for 2 first rounders, especially when even if they are good Crippa will be 35 and Doc 40
You lock in H and TDK and get one or two trades in to have a serious tilt at a flag starting next year
I am very happy if we use our first for another Cerra or Hew type
And yes we want a serious tilt at a flag nxt year and not to just make the 8
no AFL player is getting 1.5 million a year
- Oct 4, 2018
- 10,619
- 26,743
- AFL Club
- Carlton
- Other Teams
- Arsenal & NY Knicks
nor should they
Beyond Blue
Premiership Player
- Jun 25, 2021
- 3,181
- 10,141
- AFL Club
- Carlton
I would be. I’m done with building through the draft. This damn rebuild has already taken too long.
KohPhi
Brownlow Medallist
- Jul 24, 2015
- 23,537
- 95,589
- AFL Club
- Carlton
You never know...one of them could become a Coleman Medallist..
lukep_86
Club Legend
Trade out H!? With the list in the shape it's in and after finally getting him and Charlie on the park at the same time? That's a definite no from me
Never said we should trade him or that is my preferred outcome. In truth I'm finding it difficult with arrow's hypothetical 5 and 7. Would probably want Sheezel and Busslinger so would require better picks. But we may not get the choice. A godfather offer from the druggies and the threat of the PSD would be pretty uncomfortable, especially given Dodo's distaste for a win/win outcome.
Beyond Blue
Premiership Player
- Jun 25, 2021
- 3,181
- 10,141
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Busslinger is rated 13 in Twoomey’s latest phantom draft in AFL.com today noting he is usually pretty close to the mark with his predicted order so he might be available at our first pick.
If we’re all in on Sheezel - I hope we are as he looks perfect for our needs - then we should be looking to trade up like Melbourne did to get Luke Jackson using a future first rather than trading a Coleman Medallist in his prime.
- Dec 8, 2007
- 4,526
- 8,347
- AFL Club
- Carlton
- Other Teams
- Chicago Bulls
"Sheez" better turn into a verbal expression of joy damnit
Don't think we are much chance of ending up with him, Harry or no Harry.
Printed this as toilet paper is still scarce in WA. Thanks mate.
Bletch
Premium Platinum
- Dec 8, 2020
- 4,047
- 12,888
- AFL Club
- Carlton
There is no path to getting Sheezel that doesn't involve losing one of our elite players. Would love to get him, but it's not happening.
Use some of that toilet paper on your nose. You missed a spot.
Gethelred
Moderator
- May 1, 2016
- 31,469
- 60,606
- AFL Club
- Carlton
- Moderator
- #973
In 2014, the AFL introduced an Interchange cap, capping interchanges per match at 120. The AFL status quo at the time had inside mids becoming much, much larger and stronger, and the game saw coaches like Brenton Sanderson introduce multiple extras around a stoppage and seek to grind an opponent to the ground with bigger bodies. 120 interchanges immediately reduced the influence a player like Dane Swan could have on a game; where he'd go hell for leather and come off for a short rest then back on over a 5 minute period, he wound up playing in the front six as a HFF because he couldn't run all game. He wasn't built that way.
In 2016, the AFL decreased that interchange limit to 90, and the next few years saw a side that drafted in the genuine short term - they picked up the players necessary to run their gameplan from 2014 on, with their pillars in Martin, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Edwards, Houli, Rance, Vlaustin, Grimes, Astbury already in place - for repeat sprinting and endurance win 3 of the next 5 flags. It saw the dominant midfielders of previous eras slowly succumb to the endurance limit that the AFL put in place to be a footballer. Players like Jack Billings, mooted predraft as a player who could become a top flight mid, never reached that ceiling because they could no longer rest on the bench. The AFL lowered the cap again last year.
Now, to the point of this discussion...
We started our rebuild in 2015, picking up the following players year for year:
2015
Jacob Weitering
Harry McKay
Charlie Curnow
David Cuningham
Jack Silvagni
Trades and FA
Kerridge, Lamb, Phillips, Plowman, Sumner, Gorringe, Wright
2016
Sam Petrevsky-Seton
Zac Fisher
Harrison Macready
Cam Polson
Tom Williamson
Pat Kerr
Kym Lebois
Trades and FA
Marchbank, Palmer, Smedts, Pickett, Sheehan
2017
Paddy Dow
Lochie O'brien
Tom Dekoning
Angus Schumacher
Matt Shaw (r)
Trades and FA
Kennedy, Lang, Lobbe, Mullett, McDaid, O'Shea
2018
Sam Walsh
Liam Stocker
Finbar O'Dwyer
Ben Silvagni
Hugh Goddard (r)
Tom Bugg (r)
Josh Deluca (midseason)
2019
Brodie Kemp
Sam Philp
Sam Ramsay
Josh Honey (r)
Fraser Phillips(r)
Trades and FA
Martin, Betts, Pittonett, Newnes
Trades and FA
McGovern, Newman, Setterfield, Owies, Moore (supplementary)
This is the duration of Steven Silvagni's period as List Manager at Carlton. The bolded are players who were selected as midfielders for other considerations than fitness, on the basis that the AFL would not further restrict interchanges. As can be seen, that leaves two players for the entire duration of SOS's leading list management who were selected in part for their endurance, LOB and Walsh.
People on this forum are expressing the opinion that his efforts at list management at Carlton were poor. I would like to submit that he drafted for the status quo at the time, and did not plan for the AFL further decreasing interchange caps beyond 120, then 90. You can fault that he didn't plan for it, but you cannot fault the selections themselves. The AFL in choosing to cap interchanges has heightened the floor for capacity to play at the required levels, with some draftees simply not being able to make it based on today's required skillsets; in short, that you need players who can run further and longer than most are capable of. Not 'capable of driving themselves to do given effort', not 'don't want to do it because they're lazy'; genuinely able to do at all.
It is as much a ceiling to lack endurance in the modern AFL as it is to lack height.
Now, should he have planned for this sort of change? Maybe. But every single change made to the AFL over that period - removal of runners, introduction and tightening of the coaching soft caps - has impinged upon our ability to rebuild properly and has benefited the sides that were already in contention, and that includes the interchange caps. And SOS's eyes were clearly in accomplishing what no other list manager (in our history, let alone AFL history) has ever done; build from scratch a list to contend, KPP and all, without draft handouts. At what point do you simply throw your hands up in the air to try and meet a moving target and simply draft the best you can to complete the picture and provide your coaches as many different options as you can?
I find it interesting the degree to which people are willing to pot someone's job completely in hindsight. It reveals, somewhat, the kind of person they are.
In 2016, the AFL decreased that interchange limit to 90, and the next few years saw a side that drafted in the genuine short term - they picked up the players necessary to run their gameplan from 2014 on, with their pillars in Martin, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Edwards, Houli, Rance, Vlaustin, Grimes, Astbury already in place - for repeat sprinting and endurance win 3 of the next 5 flags. It saw the dominant midfielders of previous eras slowly succumb to the endurance limit that the AFL put in place to be a footballer. Players like Jack Billings, mooted predraft as a player who could become a top flight mid, never reached that ceiling because they could no longer rest on the bench. The AFL lowered the cap again last year.
Now, to the point of this discussion...
We started our rebuild in 2015, picking up the following players year for year:
2015
Jacob Weitering
Harry McKay
Charlie Curnow
David Cuningham
Jack Silvagni
Trades and FA
Kerridge, Lamb, Phillips, Plowman, Sumner, Gorringe, Wright
2016
Sam Petrevsky-Seton
Zac Fisher
Harrison Macready
Cam Polson
Tom Williamson
Pat Kerr
Kym Lebois
Trades and FA
Marchbank, Palmer, Smedts, Pickett, Sheehan
2017
Paddy Dow
Lochie O'brien
Tom Dekoning
Angus Schumacher
Matt Shaw (r)
Trades and FA
Kennedy, Lang, Lobbe, Mullett, McDaid, O'Shea
2018
Sam Walsh
Liam Stocker
Finbar O'Dwyer
Ben Silvagni
Hugh Goddard (r)
Tom Bugg (r)
Josh Deluca (midseason)
2019
Brodie Kemp
Sam Philp
Sam Ramsay
Josh Honey (r)
Fraser Phillips(r)
Trades and FA
Martin, Betts, Pittonett, Newnes
Trades and FA
McGovern, Newman, Setterfield, Owies, Moore (supplementary)
This is the duration of Steven Silvagni's period as List Manager at Carlton. The bolded are players who were selected as midfielders for other considerations than fitness, on the basis that the AFL would not further restrict interchanges. As can be seen, that leaves two players for the entire duration of SOS's leading list management who were selected in part for their endurance, LOB and Walsh.
People on this forum are expressing the opinion that his efforts at list management at Carlton were poor. I would like to submit that he drafted for the status quo at the time, and did not plan for the AFL further decreasing interchange caps beyond 120, then 90. You can fault that he didn't plan for it, but you cannot fault the selections themselves. The AFL in choosing to cap interchanges has heightened the floor for capacity to play at the required levels, with some draftees simply not being able to make it based on today's required skillsets; in short, that you need players who can run further and longer than most are capable of. Not 'capable of driving themselves to do given effort', not 'don't want to do it because they're lazy'; genuinely able to do at all.
It is as much a ceiling to lack endurance in the modern AFL as it is to lack height.
Now, should he have planned for this sort of change? Maybe. But every single change made to the AFL over that period - removal of runners, introduction and tightening of the coaching soft caps - has impinged upon our ability to rebuild properly and has benefited the sides that were already in contention, and that includes the interchange caps. And SOS's eyes were clearly in accomplishing what no other list manager (in our history, let alone AFL history) has ever done; build from scratch a list to contend, KPP and all, without draft handouts. At what point do you simply throw your hands up in the air to try and meet a moving target and simply draft the best you can to complete the picture and provide your coaches as many different options as you can?
I find it interesting the degree to which people are willing to pot someone's job completely in hindsight. It reveals, somewhat, the kind of person they are.
Last edited:
no fate
Team Captain
- Mar 26, 2021
- 355
- 1,327
- AFL Club
- Carlton
This aged well. I see you've taken it all back though - respect for that. So, we'll enjoy this moment, but more so seeing this champion with his hand on the cup!
Haha yep. First half of the season he was just about the best player in the comp. Second half he was OK. It was enough though with Neale missing out on a few votes.
Glad he won, if not for for his year but his body of work over the years. Still don't think we can win a premiership if he's body isn't holding up for the whole season plus finals though.
