Is our administration up to scratch?

[DaRock]

Okay the dust has settled. We lost to Melbourne - again.

No point in howling down match day decisions and dropped chest marks. I propose we make the following assessments of our current administration against the previous.

1. Would our previous decision makers have allowed Jade Rawlings to slip through our grasp?. Was our lack of negotiation ALL the Bulldogs fault?

2. Brent Guerra indicated in a recent newspaper article that he was almost assured of playing with the NMFC in 2004 and that he was amazed that it didn't happen. Why so?

3. Aaron Davey is personally nurtured by our recruting manager. He is played in our feeder club. He was available all the way down the draft and then again on rookie draft day. Melbourne were able to ask their members for financial support to allow the rookie to play senior footy. Couldn't we have?

4. The Shane Harvey scenario seems smelly to me. Brother Brent seems to have pulled off some excellent negotiation that involved more brotherly love than extra years or dollars on a contract. Surely we didn't get sucked in to that; did we?

5. Daniel Motlop was mighty keen to return home yet we coaxed him to stay. I can't remember having to entice someone to play for our jumper before?


I'm not certain any of these issues are much individually but I ask that you consider them collectively when assessing our current position in the AFL pecking order.

We were known as the most forward thinking and progressive administration in the caper in recent times, (Friday Night Football, springs to mind). I certainly hope we are still capable of it - because I fear we'll need to be.

 

[Carlos]

Salary cap restrictions/business plan commitments to the AFL have alot do with why we didnt land Guerra. Dean was keen, i know this for a fact.

Same for Davey. It was purely and simply cap and a judgement call between Harvey and Davey. Right now we look like gooses. Dean rolled the dice and having seen enough of Harvey at VFL level this year and thus feeling i have a decent grasp of his obvious strengths and frustratingly just as obvious weaknesses, i can undertsand why Dean made the call he did. The kid has just as much natural talent as anyone on our list, and yes, comfortably more than Davey.

We all look like geniuses with the benefit of hindsite though.

I have been the poster boy of the "Shane Harvey is a < insert expletive > club, but that is only because i am convinced he could be a comfortably superior player to his brother if he ever pulls his finger out and does the work. He hasn't yet, but he is still young. I wouldnt write that one off yet.

Rawlings? Once again, we were keen, but baulked when we realised what it would have involved offloading to fulfill the deal, not to mentiuon what we'd have to shift to free up the cap.

Junior? Money/managerial posturing can be a powerful influence. We'd all like to believe in the romantism of football and wish they were all as loyal as Archer and Stevens, but at the end of the day we're talking about blokes' career here.

And at the end of the day, he stayed didnt he?

All in all, you're barking up the wrong tree IMO.

 

[Darky]

Originally posted by DaRock

1. Would our previous decision makers have allowed Jade Rawlings to slip through our grasp?. Was our lack of negotiation ALL the Bulldogs fault?

I'd say Hawthorn's fault. I'm not sure that Corey Jones plus pick 9 was actually thrown up as a trade, or if in fact picks 9 & 24 were, but if it's anything similar I'm glad the trade didn't eventuate. I commend the club's efforts in doing their best to secure Rawlings but not agreeing to pay over his worth.

Originally posted by DaRock

2. Brent Guerra indicated in a recent newspaper article that he was almost assured of playing with the NMFC in 2004 and that he was amazed that it didn't happen. Why so?

More disappointed we missed out on him than Rawlings, and I don't know how hard we went in to get him. Perhaps none of our players suited Port for a trade, and perhaps St.Kilda's offer of pick 39 was the best pick offer Port received.

Originally posted by DaRock

3. Aaron Davey is personally nurtured by our recruting manager. He is played in our feeder club. He was available all the way down the draft and then again on rookie draft day. Melbourne were able to ask their members for financial support to allow the rookie to play senior footy. Couldn't we have?

This one's frustrating. Was he worth our last pick in the draft, or did we need to shore up our key position stocks by picking up someone like Chad Jones? It seems we were keen to rookie Davey if he was still available via the rooke draft. He wasn't - Melbourne had a pick before us.

Originally posted by DaRock

4. The Shane Harvey scenario seems smelly to me. Brother Brent seems to have pulled off some excellent negotiation that involved more brotherly love than extra years or dollars on a contract. Surely we didn't get sucked in to that; did we?

Shane can play, so there was always going to be some theoretical merit in drafting him. It might yet be a punt that comes off - if he can get his act together, he could become a very good player.

Given the hacks that usually parade themselves in the pre-season draft after the unsigned guns price themselves out of the reach of most, I think a talented player like Shane is a bargain if he comes off.

Whether Davey would have been a better bet, I guess we'll find out after a couple of years when both have had a chance to establish themselves fully in improving teams.

Originally posted by DaRock

5. Daniel Motlop was mighty keen to return home yet we coaxed him to stay. I can't remember having to entice someone to play for our jumper before?

A source close to the club told me that it was mainly a ploy by his management (Ricky Nixon's mob) to get as many North players away from North as possible because of a feud between the club and the management group.

I was told that Nixon's group tried to coerce Motlop to either Port or Essendon for bigger dollars... and obviously more money for Flying Start's cut. Motlop's supposed change of heart took place while overseas on an end of season trip with the other players.

Players who miss home and see it as more important than footy don't bugger off overseas with their footy mates. Not logically anyway. This is where Flying Start's efforts in the media never made sense.

To the club's credit here, they did what they could to make Daniel feel as much at home as possible, without throwing insane dollar amounts at him contract-wise.

To Daniel's credit, he signed almost immediately upon returning from the trip, despite other clubs probably offering a few more bucks.

Originally posted by DaRock

I'm not certain any of these issues are much individually but I ask that you consider them collectively when assessing our current position in the AFL pecking order.

We were known as the most forward thinking and progressive administration in the caper in recent times, (Friday Night Football, springs to mind). I certainly hope we are still capable of it - because I fear we'll need to be.

They're all very legitimate queries, individually and as a collective, but I think the club has dealt well with these situations.

You can't FORCE another club to trade the players you want, and you can't force them to take players or picks you're offering. It's not always a case of the club not doing enough.

 

[greg]

Hi DaRock

I don't think we should loose sleep over things out of our control, particularly football, as Carlos said we're between DaRock and a hard place at the moment.

The Sun will rise tomorrow and with it new opportunities.

 

[TheGreatCoranzo]

Look on the bright side - our administration is leaking 100 thousand big ones each week are they?

 

[The Ardent Army]

A source close to the club told me that it was mainly a ploy by his management (Ricky Nixon's mob) to get as many North players away from North as possible because of a feud between the club and the management group.

On the same day that the Motlop story broke, I heard that this tiff also involved Drew Petrie. Not sure if he was the reason it started or if he was just one of the players caught up at the time, but the story was that Drew's management (Nixon at the time) were hassling North for more money under the threat that he may look elsewhere.

Only problem was that this was all happening without Drew's knowledge and apparently our Drew got wind of these comments and told Nixon to P.O as he'd never leave North and was extremely upset at the thought of even being associated with such blasphemous and destructive comments. I think Drew ended up signing with Ron Joseph?

 

[greg]

Originally posted by The Ardent Army
On the same day that the Motlop story broke, I heard that this tiff also involved Drew Petrie. Not sure if he was the reason it started or if he was just one of the players caught up at the time, but the story was that Drew's management (Nixon at the time) were hassling North for more money under the threat that he may look elsewhere.

Only problem was that this was all happening without Drew's knowledge and apparently our Drew got wind of these comments and told Nixon to P.O as he'd never leave North and was extremely upset at the thought of even being associated with such blasphemous and destructive comments. I think Drew ended up signing with Ron Joseph?

Bewdy!!!

 

[Carlos]

Originally posted by The Ardent Army
I think Drew ended up signing with Ron Joseph?

Nope, Craig Kelly's Elite Sports Properties, under the advice of his then house mate, Brent Harvey, who is also an ESP client.

 

[Archer_11]

Re: Re: Is our administration up to scratch?

Great questions DaRock, and they do need to be asked.

You would say the overriding theme of last years trading period was to retain our list and not make any big trades just for the sake of getting a 'name' player. The Guerra one aside - because that one really does suck - you would say we have been faithful to that theme. So as we've now got extra developing players in our corner it will be years before we know if we've done the right thing.

One thing is for sure though, when a young Trotter takes a screamer and slots one through in his fifth game we're not going to be wishing we had a 30 year old Rawlings instead.


Darky, loved your post but one thing got me:

Originally posted by Darky
Motlop's supposed change of heart took place while overseas on an end of season trip with the other players.

An article in the HUN sometime back had an interview with him athat contained the line (yes I saved it, how sad):

"Motlop was in Mexico on the team's end-of-season trip when his manager told the club of his intention to leave. "When I got back, we had a meeting again and just spoke about why I was unhappy and sorted things out," he said."

Well come to think of it that sounds pretty dodgy doesn't it, so I'll take that back.

But I could have sworn in the media, or maybe it was a post match interview, Motlop said it was when he was overseas that he decided to leave. I don't know maybe someone can remember. It wasn't that long ago. Maybe it was another Roo player talking about him?

I think it's time for my mush.

 

[Lidge]

Originally posted by Carlos
Same for Davey. It was purely and simply cap and a judgement call between Harvey and Davey. Right now we look like gooses. Dean rolled the dice and having seen enough of Harvey at VFL level this year and thus feeling i have a decent grasp of his obvious strengths and frustratingly just as obvious weaknesses, i can undertsand why Dean made the call he did. The kid has just as much natural talent as anyone on our list, and yes, comfortably more than Davey.

Don't think the salaray cap had anything to do with S Harvey being taken over Davey. If that was the criteria, Davey would've come cheaper. Peanuts plus match payments.

As for a judgement call - at the moment it looks like we backed the wrong horse.

 

[Darky]

Re: Re: Re: Is our administration up to scratch?

Originally posted by Archer_11
Motlop said it was when he was overseas that he decided to leave.

That's the change of heart I was referring to... his decision to leave, not his decision to stay.

I suppose that makes it hard to put a timeline on events and where the boy's head was at, but either it was a long-simmering problem which had boiled over, or there was some fancy talking and coercion from outside sources.

We don't know the full story of what it was - maybe Junior himself doesn't even know that. Important thing is he appears happy and we have him signed until the end of next year.

 

[Darky]

Originally posted by Lidge
Don't think the salaray cap had anything to do with S Harvey being taken over Davey. If that was the criteria, Davey would've come cheaper. Peanuts plus match payments.

No, it was a salary cap issue or total player payments issue in the sense that we could afford to take one or the other, but not both.

As for a judgement call - at the moment it looks like we backed the wrong horse.

At the moment, yes we're behind. But Melbourne (and every other side) have unearthed plenty of players who started brilliantly and ended up in the bush leagues shortly after. Any Melbourne supporter who gives you lip about passing up Davey, just remind them about Darren Cuthbertson, Andrew Lamprill, Brent Heaver and Sean Charles...

 

[gokangas]

The powers to be at North blame Essendon for the Rawlings stuff up, rather than Hawks or Dogs. They say they were complicit in the whole deal.

I have real worries about the standard of our admin too - I think DaRock raises some great points.

I don't accept that Guerra, Coops or Davey had anything to do with the salary cap. Walsh has said at several functions I've been at that the kangas did not rate Davey highly, but would have taken him as a rookie had Melbourne not chosen him one pick ahead. The Kangas were worried about his stability in Melbourne and his overall commitment to training. Mind you, lets see what Davey is doing by the end of the season coz I'm not yet convinced he will make it.

He said that the recruiting staff thought we had too many players like Guerra and he didn't add any value to the club (not sure who they compared him too). Geez we could use his strangth now - this was the biggest error of judgement they made.

I reckon we will all regret the Koops oversight more. He trained at North and we passed on him for the same reason as Guerra according to Walsh. Just watch him grow in stature now that he has recovered from injury.

When you look at our trade decisons last season there is little wonder why Stibbard is looking around and is likely to move on after many years at the roos.

I too am worried about the quality of our admin - 2003 recruiting comes back to Corey McKernan - what more do we need to say? The writing was on the wall then that we won't improve this season!

Lets hope that the decision to take the lowest priced option as coach doesn't also come back to haunt us.

 

[mighty mick]

great thread to read and informative, would jnrs suggestion of leaving have anything to do with shannon motlop being delisted?

 

[dus]

Ive only seen Davey play with Melb, and on tv admitably, but i reckon this kid is going to be a gun. His pace is unbeleivable, and seems to have a good additude. S. Harvey? I swap them in a second. Bad call Deano IMO.

If we didnt get Gurerra cause of the salary cap then fair enuff. But if we didnt get him because 'we' thought he couldnt fit into the side, then that too is a bad call. Could of used pick #24 or whatever we got Jones with, some have said, but i like the look of Jones and we need a leading, quick FF comming through. Tough call.

 

[KangaFett]

We could post this question on every clubs board - and I am sure they will all have 5 whinges to have as well!

You cant have everything your own way.

Stuff happens that is beyond the clubs control.

As for Davey, for godsake, come back in 18 months and see how good he is. You might be in for a shock! He will be a gun alright - to his head.

 

[sross]

Originally posted by gokangas

I don't accept that Guerra, Coops or Davey had anything to do with the salary cap. Walsh has said at several functions I've been at that the kangas did not rate Davey highly, but would have taken him as a rookie had Melbourne not chosen him one pick ahead.

Aaron Davey told me at the players raffle day that he had been guaranteed by North that he would be picked up in the rookie draft if he was still available. The problem was that Melbourne had a pick before us and that they wanted him. He told them his preference was North.

 

[moomba]

Originally posted by DaRock
1. Would our previous decision makers have allowed Jade Rawlings to slip through our grasp?. Was our lack of negotiation ALL the Bulldogs fault?

In the long run, you are not going to be able to satisfy every potential trading partner. They were prepared to give up more than we were prepared to give up, then you make the decision do you pay more than you think the player is worth or do you look elsewhere.

If anything I think what we were reported to be ready to give up was too high anyway, and I'm more than happy the deal didnt go through.

2. Brent Guerra indicated in a recent newspaper article that he was almost assured of playing with the NMFC in 2004 and that he was amazed that it didn't happen. Why so?

Coaching decision, only time will tell us whether it was a good one or not.

3. Aaron Davey is personally nurtured by our recruting manager. He is played in our feeder club. He was available all the way down the draft and then again on rookie draft day. Melbourne were able to ask their members for financial support to allow the rookie to play senior footy. Couldn't we have?

Ditto for Davey, and like others I am not convinced yet that he will be the gun everyone seems to think. Also as has been mentioned it was more a matter of us not being prepared to have him on the senior list from day 1 rather than not being prepared to draft him as a rookie.

4. The Shane Harvey scenario seems smelly to me. Brother Brent seems to have pulled off some excellent negotiation that involved more brotherly love than extra years or dollars on a contract. Surely we didn't get sucked in to that; did we?

2 + 2 does not = 5, and while it makes for a good conspiracy theory I am 100% confidant that Boomers re-signing was related to Boomer and Boomer alone. Harvey is 9 games into his North career, at this stage none of us know whether he will end up being a good pickup or not.

5. Daniel Motlop was mighty keen to return home yet we coaxed him to stay. I can't remember having to entice someone to play for our jumper before?

I think you will find the admin work extremely hard every year to convince players to stay at the club.

 

[Z_K]

At trade time, I was as upset as anyone that we didn't land a biggish name. We offered way over the odds for Jade IMO, and the fact that he is not playing for North right now is not the club's fault. Looking at it now, there is no way in the world that I would swap Trotter for Jade. Not a chance in hell.

Guerra was the most annoying IMO, because he would have been so bloody cheap (in terms of trade value) but I have been reliably informed that Laids wanted him, the club wanted him and Brent was happy to come across. I am happy with that.

My thoughts on Davey and S Harvey are pretty well known around here. I don't think Davey will be around for long, maybe 2 years, but I am positive that is two more years than the senior side will get out of Harvey. We took a punt and IMO, lost. You move on.

It also has to be remembered that Laidley is young coach, entering trade week in charge of a club without any cap room to budge and a playing list that does not have much to throw on the trade table, mostly due to the lack of quality mid-aged footballers.

 

[Z_K]

Oh and on Junior, I am convinced that it was a massive ploy by his management company to p1ss North off, using JNR as a bargaining tool. I love the bloke, but I can't imagine he is the sharpest bloke in a contract negotiation, and would have been the perfect bloke for Nixon to promise the world to.

Despite my despair during the following day or so, I was pretty confident the club would handle it, and they did well IMO.

 

[mighty mick]

with the speed and intensity around trade time, i think these blokes earn thier keep. as for hindsight, a player who may look great doing the draftee camp stuff may not always look up to scratch when it comes to the real game.

i believe our drafting has turned the crner under jyd and the last years of dennis. We now look for the long term investment rather than the short term fix, and it will pay off.

 

[DaRock]

Interesting to note the replies, thankyou.

I'm not certain the investment in Corey McK was a "long term one". Dean insists that David Teague was too small for a key position yet too slow to mind a dangerous small forward. It was obvious he wasn't going to be played much at North. As far as Digby goes, well his own inconsistency remains the only constant in his career. Perhaps his move was for the best.

I'd also like to raise the notion of managing the forthcoming retirements. I have horrible flashbacks of those terrible years in Australian cricket when DK Lillee, R Marsh and G Chappell all retired at once. I hope we can do it a little better at North. Possibly we could see Sav and Kingy go this year, Arch and Stevo the following etc... Better still, we could trade an ageing star for an upcoming 200 gamer; eg Schwass for Grant, Carey for Wells.

Further, many on this thread have written off Aaron Davey. Perhaps on the basis that he escaped us (fair enough) or because our administration didn't rate him (fair enough too) but really , what has he done wrong? He has fantastically contributed to a team, (all year in the seniors) that is in the top four of the toughest competition in the land. He hasn't missed training. He hasn't made obscene telephone calls from cabs (sorry about that one).

Objectivity is key to this debate. One eyed scepticism serves no purpose.

 

[TheGreatCoranzo]

It's funny how the Dollar Desperate Demon fans are lauding young Aaron Davey as the seocnd coming. You get the feeling soon enough the whole weight of the Demons forward line will rest on his shoudlers, particularly if the brick with eyes (Neitz) isn't doing great.

 

[Event Horizon]

Originally posted by NorthBhoy

Guerra was the most annoying IMO, because he would have been so bloody cheap (in terms of trade value) but I have been reliably informed that Laids wanted him, the club wanted him and Brent was happy to come across. I am happy with that.

That doesn't make too much sense to me. If everyone wanted it then what really did happen? It's not as if St Kilda paid a high price to get him...

 

[Z_K]

Originally posted by vlad76
That doesn't make too much sense to me. If everyone wanted it then what really did happen? It's not as if St Kilda paid a high price to get him...

When I say he was happy to come across, I meant he liked the idea of playing for North. Maybe the nuts and bolts of the deal was not up to scratch.

I get the impression Laids and Stibbard were very keen on Chad Jones at 24, keen enough not to offer it for Guerra. Dunno, but from what I have heard, it wasn't a lack of interest from either parties that hurt the move.