Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack III

[Aristotle Pickett]

Continued from Part II

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

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Original Post, October 7, 2023:

Israel declares state of war

In response to the attacks, which appear to have caught the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) by surprise, Israel has declared a state of war.

“A number of terrorists have infiltrated into Israeli territory from the Gaza Strip,” the military said in a statement, adding that residents in the area surrounding the Gaza Strip had been told to stay in their homes.
“The Israel Defence Forces will defend Israeli civilians and the Hamas terrorist organisation will pay heavy price for its actions,” it said.

7 communities under Hamas control:
Israels’s channel 13 is reporting that 7 communities are under Hamas control.

These include Sderot, Nahal Oz, Kfar Haza, Magen, Sufa Beheri and general command of Gaza.

Guardian

Civilians and soldiers held hostage in Gaza, says Israel – as it happened

This blog is now closed.

www.theguardian.com

 

[Zidane98]

It can't be genocide because they're bad at it?

Any reason why the nearly 2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel aren't being murdered as we speak? As you claim, Israel are genociding all Palestinians.

 

[Carn The Berries]

Any reason why the nearly 2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel aren't being murdered as we speak? As you claim, Israel are genociding all Palestinians.

FFS... Do the people on this thread saying this really believe it? Do they honestly think that Israel, as horrendously as they've acted, would just obliterate the entire population?

You don't have to kill people to eradicate them from an area... As has been shown over the last 6 months. Where will the next letter drop tell Palestinians to flee to? Maldives for a tropical holiday?

But of course, they're doing all of this with the best interests of innocent Palestinian civilians in mind...

 

[faible]

Any reason why the nearly 2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel aren't being murdered as we speak? As you claim, Israel are genociding all Palestinians.

GAZA STRIP: Famine is imminent as 1.1 million people, half of Gaza, experience catastrophic food insecurity | IPC - Integrated Food Security Phase Classification

www.ipcinfo.org

They're being starved to death as we speak.

 

[Saint]

Any reason why the nearly 2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel aren't being murdered as we speak? As you claim, Israel are genociding all Palestinians.

Ethnic Cleansing falls under the Genocide convention.

Do you want to state that you don't think Israel are committing Ethnic cleansing?

If you do think they're committing ethnic cleansing, then they're contravening the Genocide convention.

Also, here's the Genocide convention Article:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed withintent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, assuch:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


I would say Israel are committing all but (e). And they can't justify it by saying they're just fighting terrorism or because of hostages. Because Israel funds terrorism and takes hostages in the West Bank.

The one they're clearly doing, and not in the course of pursing Hamas is (c). They're clearly trying to make Gaza (and the West Bank) un-livable for Palestinians.

 

[Zidane98]

Ethnic Cleansing falls under the Genocide convention.

Do you want to state that you don't think Israel are committing Ethnic cleansing?

If you do think they're committing ethnic cleansing, then they're contravening the Genocide convention.

Also, here's the Genocide convention Article:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed withintent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, assuch:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


I would say Israel are committing all but (e). And they can't justify it by saying they're just fighting terrorism or because of hostages. Because Israel funds terrorism and takes hostages in the West Bank.

The one they're clearly doing, and not in the course of pursing Hamas is (c). They're clearly trying to make Gaza (and the West Bank) un-livable for Palestinians.

That's a whole lot of waffle and no response to the actual question posed. Why is Israel not murdering the nearly 2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel en masse if genocide of Palestinian people is the ultimate goal of the state of Israel?

 

[faible]

That's a whole lot of waffle and no response to the actual question posed. Why is Israel not murdering the nearly 2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel en masse if genocide of Palestinian people is the ultimate goal of the state of Israel?

He actually bothered to take the time to respond to you and you come back with 'that's a whole lot of waffle'. Seriously?

 

[Zidane98]

Because Genocide is no simply described as the "murder of civilians". Making a territory unlivable is also genocide.

Despite you trying to twist the question into as narrow a definition as possible, the actual definition is what matters.

I describe what Israel are doing as Ethnic Cleansing. I think they want Gaza and the West Bank to be Jewish-only or Jewish majority. And they don't care if Palestinians live or die. They're doing it by making the territory unlivable and that's considered Genocide.

It's not surprising that you consider the actual Genocide Convention "a whole lot of waffle". It's what Hitler and Netanyahu and Sinwar would say about it too.

In that case, why aren't Israel making life unlivable for Palestinian civilians of Israel if Palestinian genocide is the goal? Certainly would be very easy for Israel to make life unbearable for Palestinian civilians of Israel if they wanted to do as much.

There's also plenty of Palestinians living in Jordan and Jordanians themselves ethnically are very close related to Palestinians. Any reason why Jordan is spared from this genocide when everyone you describe is pretty much who Israel wants to make life unlivable for and currently lives in Jordan genocide free?

 

[faible]

In that case, why aren't Israel making life unlivable for Palestinian civilians of Israel if Palestinian genocide is the goal? Certainly would be very easy for Israel to make life unbearable for Palestinian civilians of Israel if they wanted to do as much.

There's also plenty of Palestinians living in Jordan and Jordanians themselves ethnically are very close related to Palestinians. Any reason why Jordan is spared from this genocide when everyone you describe is pretty much who Israel wants to make life unlivable for and currently lives in Jordan genocide free?

Fortunately the UN has already addressed this latest talking point.

Genocide can also be committed against only a part of the group, as long as that part is identifiable (including within a geographically limited area) and “substantial.”

 

[Zidane98]

GAZA STRIP: Famine is imminent as 1.1 million people, half of Gaza, experience catastrophic food insecurity | IPC - Integrated Food Security Phase Classification

www.ipcinfo.org

They're being starved to death as we speak.

Yes, the war between Israel & Hamas/Iran has a lot to answer for.

 

[Saint]

In that case, why aren't Israel making life unlivable for Palestinian civilians of Israel if Palestinian genocide is the goal? Certainly would be very easy for Israel to make life unbearable for Palestinian civilians of Israel if they wanted to do as much.

There's also plenty of Palestinians living in Jordan and Jordanians themselves ethnically are very close related to Palestinians. Any reason why Jordan is spared from this genocide when everyone you describe is pretty much who Israel wants to make life unlivable for and currently lives in Jordan genocide free?

Read. The. Convention.

I even looked it up and posted it for you. They're trying to remove Palestinians from their land. That's genocide. What's Jordan got to do with Israel's Genocide of land in the West Bank?

They want to ethnically be superior across Greater Israel. To do that, they're clearing the land of Palestinians. That's Genocide. And it's undeniable that they're doing it. No matter how much you don't want to read the Genocide convention or believe it.

The definition of Genocide is not "If they're trying to kill every single person of that race, worldwide, then it's genocide, if not, it's ok"

As for making life unlivable in Israel, they live under apartheid. They're not allowed to buy in certain towns, they're not allowed to hold certain jobs, they're discriminated against everywhere. The Government has a stated law of keeping them as a minority. Hmmm, I wonder what other countries used to have laws which deliberately kept minority races as minorities. If we'd call them modern democracies.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Why is Israel not murdering the nearly 2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel en masse if genocide of Palestinian people is the ultimate goal of the state of Israel?

Look at their behaviour. The aim is to make living conditions so miserable for the Palestinians that they pack up and leave en masse. You don't have to kill to cleanse.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Palestinians are far from faultless...they are such bad tenants, not even their own Islam aligned Neighbours will have a bar of them given the terrorism and civil war they have caused in Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon.

That's the PLO, not the civilians.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

So that land theft doesn't count because Mexicans have learnt to accept it?

I don't recall saying it doesn't count. But it's ancient history at this point. Playing that game opens up the question of whether Mexico should exist at all, since it was conquered from multiple different native nations.

Here's a wild idea: people shouldn't steal land or commit mass murder, and past atrocities on the other side of the world don't mean more atrocities are justified now.

Maybe the Palestinians can learn something from the Mexicans. Accept it now, stop the war, and put an end to the death toll?

You know the Mexicans still had a country at the end of the war, right? The Palestinians don't. If Israel continues to take more and more land from them, they'll have nothing left. They are not the same. And, the territories Mexico lost weren't ethnically cleansed of Mexicans after the United States annexed it.

 

[Trouto]

It can't be genocide because they're bad at it?

it cant be genocide cos someone else killed more?

 

[Trouto]

That's a whole lot of waffle and no response to the actual question posed. Why is Israel not murdering the nearly 2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel en masse if genocide of Palestinian people is the ultimate goal of the state of Israel?

cos they dont need to murder them - they need to kill enough so the others flee in terror and the Zionists can say "they left on their own accord - the land's ours now"

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Hamas are not the governing power in West Bank so it doesn't concern them.

But here's the thing, Gaza without Hamas would be the West Bank. It could be argued that belligerence and hostility is the only reason why Gaza hasn't been vivisected by Israeli thieves the way the West Bank has.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Its not genocide.

How many more people have to die before it is, then?

Zidane98 that question is for you too.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

And neither would the Palestinians if the shoe were on the other foot.

Do you mean now, after 75 years of dispossession and brutality? Or before 1948?

Its why a 2 state solution was and is the only option for peace.

Great, so when are Israel pulling their land thieves out of the West Bank to help bring about that two state solution?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Its not genocide.

It looks like genocide, it sounds like genocide and probably even smells like genocide.

How many more mass graves do you need to see uncovered?

 

[Trouto]

How many more people have to die before it is, then?

Zidane98 that question is for you too.

its not how many, its WHO is doing the killing.

Cos its Zionists, not genocide

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

That's the PLO, not the civilians.

Ahh right...like its the IDF not Israel... so why did Hamas attack civilians only on October 7th....not just civilians but highly progressive Israelis probably most sympathetic to the Palestinian cause?

They openly intend on wiping out all Israelis and believe there should be 1 state a Palestinian one from the river to the sea...the complete destruction of Israel....so was October 7th then a Genocide?

You will find that in Kuwait the vast majority of Palestinian civilians supported Saddam and his declared war on Israel. it was this support en masse that led to their expulsion.

 

[Chief]

why did Hamas attack civilians only on October 7th

Huh?

Do you really think that ONLY civilians were attacked?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Ahh right...like its the IDF not Israel... so why did Hamas attack civilians only on October 7th....not just civilians but highly progressive Israelis probably most sympathetic to the Palestinian cause?

They openly intend on wiping out all Israelis and believe there should be 1 state a Palestinian one from the river to the sea...the complete destruction of Israel....so was October 7th then a Genocide?

You will find that in Kuwait the vast majority of Palestinian civilians supported Saddam and his declared war on Israel. it was this support en masse that led to their expulsion.

If Hamas only attacked civilians, why did most of the listed deaths on October 7 have military titles/ranks?

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

It can't be genocide because they're bad at it?

They could wipe out the Gaza Strip tomorrow if they wanted to.