Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack III

[JayJ20]

Not strange, I just have a different perspective to you, you are a good poster, so I still respect what you say, just don't agree Israel is enemy #1 here. Israel isn't innocent, but what Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are doing is not the solution. death just = more death.

Iran has involved itself in this, and they continue to involve themselves in this. Whatever comes their way now, is by their own doing.

If you throw grenades over the fence, sooner or later somethings going to come back over it.

I've repeatedly said on this forum from day 1 that there are three contributors to violence and instability in the Middle East and I've held them accountable for their contributions. The Israelis, the Saudis and Iran. The UAE and Qatar (called little Saudi) are fast approaching this as well with their contributions to instability in Sudan and Libya respectively. As for outsiders, the US, the British, the French and the Russians (specifically in Syria) are the 4 main contributors to an unstable Middle East. Most violence stems from these 7 in particular + the other 2.

We can talk about a collapse of the Saudi and Iranian regime and their proxies, but that would do nothing to solve the issue of Palestine because the Zionist regime will invent another external threat. That's how narcissists work. The conversation of dismantling Zionist rulership cannot be avoided.

 

[Suspense]

Completely wrong. The Nazi regime fell because the Red Army defeated it. Millions having sacrificed their lives in a war of annihilation against the Nazi armies, the Red Army had by 1944 become an irresistable force.

The Red Army rolled through Eastern Europe on to Berlin.

When the Allies saw that the Red Army had vanquished the Wehrmacht, they quickly organised their "second front" to invade Europe from the west in order to prevent the Red Army from progressing too far.

The much lauded "second front" was not aimed against the Nazi regime, it was aimed against the Red Army.

I thought it was obvious but by 'bombed into oblivion' I meant they were 'militarily defeated' (as opposed to a shift in public sentiment which caused them to reflect on their genocidal ways and 'come to their senses').

 

[JayJ20]

The Zionist regime will moderate and offer reasonable concessions to the Palestinians well before they are are ever 'dismantled'. If the Palestinian leaders reject reasonable concessions in favour of continued violence, public sentiment will shift away from them once again.

You are overselling the effect of the current shift in public sentiment. If there really was such an emphatic groundswell of public support that you suggest, surely the two candidates currently seeking election would seek to take advantage of this by supporting Palestinian resistance. But instead we see both candidates doubling down on their support of Israel. Weird.

Fact is - supporters of Israel hold lot of power in the US. From a public perspective, most American's don't give a shit about Israel and they give even less of a shit about Palestinians.

The US also doesn't give a shit about what France or the rest of the West does or says - what are they going to do? Put trade sanctions on the US? Align themselves with an alternate superpower like Russia or China? Remind me, how are their human rights records? The US can wear a bit of bad PR - they've endured worse.

There is no way anyone will accept Zionists to rule over Palestinians. Absolutely no way. That is not a reasonable offer. They can never be trusted to rule over Palestinians full stop. Plus, Zionists wouldn't agree to that anyway, because that would mean the thing they've committed atrocities for in the preceding 7 decades would be realised. That thing would be an Arab majority. They know they cannot maintain a Zionist regime as well as a democracy with a majority Arab population.

The only immediate solution would be a two-state solution with Palestinians having self-determination and their own state. I can also see some people accept one state with non-Zionist rulership. Also not some BS offer of "you can have a de-militarised state". Currently the US and the Israelis are the only two opposed to a two-state solution. I don't even acknowledge American leaders insisting that they want a two state solution because they consistently vote with the Israelis.

As for public opinion, I'm not overselling it. I've been following the issue of Palestine literally all my life. Up until 12 months ago, most people considered the issue of Palestine to be a foreign war between two historic rivals. The last 12 months helped shift that narrative with the help of social media documenting war crimes in real time. I know Zionists still have power and control today, but change happens over time. They can't get away with propaganda they were able to get away with 10 or 20 years ago. They still operate like Islamophobia and Anti-Arab sentiments are post-9/11 levels and it isn't working. It may take decades before we see real results and change, but it's in motion.

Do you think Americans in general gave a shit about black South Africans back then? One thing Americans care about however is America. Do you think Americans are happy when an American Senator says it's more important to fund the Israelis than putting that money into helping Hurricane Helene victims? There is a growing number of Americans on both sides of the political spectrum that do not want the US to fund foreign wars so they invest that money into Americans. They are using taxpayer dollars after all.

Regarding the US, how did Apartheid South Africa fall when the US had Nelson Mandela on their terror watch list until 2008? it was through boycotts and widespread protests that continued to spread until it brought change. The US will continue their relationship with the Israelis until that relationship is too harmful. They may not care about other countries, but the American people are realising that they come second to the Israelis. So they don't really need to care about Palestine to force a change.

 

[blackcat]

Where are you getting this? ISIS massacred Shiites. They are Sunni.

Wahhabi/Salafi Saudis but governing monarchy forever (psychologicall-their own) to keep them in check , hence CIA or its cutouts shenanigans

 

[JayJ20]

If you go back far enough, it's was Islamic violence against Jewish settlers that 'came first'.


Theoretically, sure. Practically, nations with ethnic and religious homogeneity tend to fare much better in that part of the world.

No one knows for sure what a single Palestinian state solution may look like, but I can't see it being a peaceful coexistence.

What a joke. Albanian Muslims and Palestinian Muslims helped and took in Jewish refugees. It's the Zionists that betrayed their Palestinian counterparts and refused to coexist and assimilate with the desire to build a Jewish Ethno-State and expel Arabs from that land so they can be the majority. The Zionist movement started long before world war II. When the Balfour Declaration was signed in 1917, the Jews were a significant minority group in Palestine. The Europeans are the ones that massacred them not the Palestinians. The wars started because they wanted to take over a land that had people in it just like every other settler colonial project. It's like saying Indigenous Australians started it.

The Nazi regime fell because they were bombed into oblivion - not because 'people eventually came to their senses'.

Yeah another world war is the likely outcome with the way the Zionist regime is acting. In fact, I'm going to say World War III will happen.

 

[Gethelred]

Well if Palestinians were not bad people, the Israeli defence force wouldnt have a reason to hurt them.

Ask why Egypt has a massive barb wire fence on the Gaza strip- egpytian border?

Yeah. Bye now.

 

[JayJ20]

Where are you getting this? ISIS massacred Shiites. They are Sunni.

Saudi and Iran don't like each other.
Saudi are not Sunni. They are Wahhabi/so-called Salafis.
Wahhabis and Shiites don't like each other.

Most victims of attacks by so-called ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabaab and all those other Wahhabi groups are Sunni Muslims. Wahhabism is very different ideologically to Sunni Islam.

Like Iran, Saudi also isn't new to proxy wars.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I agree, but there are 2 sides that need to change.

I agree 100%. There needs to be change on BOTH sides. Trouble is, there are no incentives for Israel to pull its head in. No consequences of note apart from whatever pinprick attacks the opposition can muster.

Israel for its part can disintegrate neighbourhoods at will. Destroy all infrastructure compatible with modern life. Introduce malnourishment. Famine. A total economic blockade.

If the Palestinians pulled their heads in and kept their heads down, like they had been in the West Bank despite Jewish settler encroachment and depradation and Israel does NOT change its course, what is left for the Palestinians to do?

 

[blackcat]

Russia or China? Remind me, how are their human rights records?

Chechnya^

nb. i have zero doubts that the cia had its paws in Chechnya like Georgia and South Ossetia

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

There is no way anyone will accept Zionists to rule over Palestinians. Absolutely no way. That is not a reasonable offer. They can never be trusted to rule over Palestinians full stop. Plus, Zionists wouldn't agree to that anyway, because that would mean the thing they've committed atrocities for in the preceding 7 decades would be realised. That thing would be an Arab majority. They know they cannot maintain a Zionist regime as well as a democracy with a majority Arab population.

The only immediate solution would be a two-state solution with Palestinians having self-determination and their own state. I can also see some people accept one state with non-Zionist rulership. Also not some BS offer of "you can have a de-militarised state". Currently the US and the Israelis are the only two opposed to a two-state solution. I don't even acknowledge American leaders insisting that they want a two state solution because they consistently vote with the Israelis.

As for public opinion, I'm not overselling it. I've been following the issue of Palestine literally all my life. Up until 12 months ago, most people considered the issue of Palestine to be a foreign war between two historic rivals. The last 12 months helped shift that narrative with the help of social media documenting war crimes in real time. I know Zionists still have power and control today, but change happens over time. They can't get away with propaganda they were able to get away with 10 or 20 years ago. They still operate like Islamophobia and Anti-Arab sentiments are post-9/11 levels and it isn't working. It may take decades before we see real results and change, but it's in motion.

Do you think Americans in general gave a shit about black South Africans back then? One thing Americans care about however is America. Do you think Americans are happy when an American Senator says it's more important to fund the Israelis than putting that money into helping Hurricane Helene victims? There is a growing number of Americans on both sides of the political spectrum that do not want the US to fund foreign wars so they invest that money into Americans. They are using taxpayer dollars after all.

Regarding the US, how did Apartheid South Africa fall when the US had Nelson Mandela on their terror watch list until 2008? it was through boycotts and widespread protests that continued to spread until it brought change. The US will continue their relationship with the Israelis until that relationship is too harmful. They may not care about other countries, but the American people are realising that they come second to the Israelis. So they don't really need to care about Palestine to force a change.

How does the 2 state solution work?
Is it geographic boundaries?
What happens with Jerusalem?

 

[ferball]

Yeah another world war is the likely outcome with the way the Zionist regime is acting. In fact, I'm going to say World War III will happen.

The term Armageddon, from the book of revelations, originally refers to a site just north of a depopulated Palestinian town and about 30km from Haifa.

 

[blackcat]

Saudi and Iran don't like each other.
.

Xi and Sino's did what Jared Kushner & DJT were unable to accomplish

 

[Suspense]

There is no way anyone will accept Zionists to rule over Palestinians. Absolutely no way. That is not a reasonable offer. They can never be trusted to rule over Palestinians full stop. Plus, Zionists wouldn't agree to that anyway, because that would mean the thing they've committed atrocities for in the preceding 7 decades would be realised. That thing would be an Arab majority. They know they cannot maintain a Zionist regime as well as a democracy with a majority Arab population.

The only immediate solution would be a two-state solution with Palestinians having self-determination and their own state. I can also see some people accept one state with non-Zionist rulership. Also not some BS offer of "you can have a de-militarised state". Currently the US and the Israelis are the only two opposed to a two-state solution. I don't even acknowledge American leaders insisting that they want a two state solution because they consistently vote with the Israelis.

I'm referring to concessions that would be offered in a two state solution. My point is that - should the tide turn against Israel and it ran the risk of losing US support, Israel would sooner moderate it's position rather than be 'dismantled'.

As for public opinion, I'm not overselling it. I've been following the issue of Palestine literally all my life. Up until 12 months ago, most people considered the issue of Palestine to be a foreign war between two historic rivals. The last 12 months helped shift that narrative with the help of social media documenting war crimes in real time. I know Zionists still have power and control today, but change happens over time.

Sometimes it does - sometimes it doesn't. 'Change' may see sympathy for the Palestinian cause but it won't see the dismantling of the Israeli sovereign state. We will sooner see a nuclear apocalypse before we see a world without Israel.

They can't get away with propaganda they were able to get away with 10 or 20 years ago. They still operate like Islamophobia and Anti-Arab sentiments are post-9/11 levels and it isn't working. It may take decades before we see real results and change, but it's in motion.

Do you think Americans in general gave a shit about black South Africans back then? One thing Americans care about however is America. Do you think Americans are happy when an American Senator says it's more important to fund the Israelis than putting that money into helping Hurricane Helene victims? There is a growing number of Americans on both sides of the political spectrum that do not want the US to fund foreign wars so they invest that money into Americans. They are using taxpayer dollars after all.

Americans with actual power understand the economic, strategic and military benefits of supporting the continued existence of a sovereign Israeli state and ally.

Regarding the US, how did Apartheid South Africa fall when the US had Nelson Mandela on their terror watch list until 2008? it was through boycotts and widespread protests that continued to spread until it brought change. The US will continue their relationship with the Israelis until that relationship is too harmful. They may not care about other countries, but the American people are realising that they come second to the Israelis. So they don't really need to care about Palestine to force a change.

They may put pressure on the Israeli state to moderate - just as they put pressure on the South African state to end apartheid. They will not demand the sovereign Israeli state be 'dismantled' though. Sorry.

 

[blackcat]

How does the 2 state solution work?
Is it geographic boundaries?
What happens with Jerusalem?

Original plans sans international mission => Palestine and East Jerusalem as its capital*

* NB NB NB this is not my opinion , my unbiased seperation with no viewpoint

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

9% Ariel bombardment.

This is another myth. There were no mermaids in Iraq

Ariel WAS for a time the Prime Minister of Israel though!

 

[blackcat]

Ariel WAS for a time the Prime Minister of Israel though!

Sabra&Shatilla(/sp.) 1st Intifada ... hmm , think it was second one bro

 

[ferball]

Sabra&Shatilla(/sp.) 1st Intifada ... hmm , think it was second one bro

He started the second one.

 

[Suspense]

What a joke. Albanian Muslims and Palestinian Muslims helped and took in Jewish refugees. It's the Zionists that betrayed their Palestinian counterparts and refused to coexist and assimilate with the desire to build a Jewish Ethno-State and expel Arabs from that land so they can be the majority.

The Jewish settlers legally purchased land within the Ottoman empire to form their own state - they did not expel the Arabs by force or by violence.

Arab Palestinians responded with violence towards Jewish settlers. These are the facts.

The Zionist movement started long before world war II. When the Balfour Declaration was signed in 1917, the Jews were a significant minority group in Palestine. The Europeans are the ones that massacred them not the Palestinians.

The are numerous historically documented examples of Palestinian Arab revolts against the Yishuv.

The wars started because they wanted to take over a land that had people in it just like every other settler colonial project. It's like saying Indigenous Australians started it.

Nonsense. The wars started because the Arabs were opposed to the Balfour Declaration. The Allies won Palestine and (at the time) had every right to partition it as they wish - including the creation of a sovereign Israeli state.

The Palestinian Arabs have revolted ever since and look how far it has got them. Without meaning to excuse the excesses of continued Israeli aggression, the fact remains that every Palestinian casualty - every starving child, every dying mother, is the ongoing result of Palestinian realpolitik failure at every point in its dire, miserable history.

 

[Smeg Head]

Chechnya^

nb. i have zero doubts that the cia had its paws in Chechnya like Georgia and South Ossetia

It's spelt FSB

 

[QuietB]

You can call Benjam Netanyahu a War Criminal, but at least he cares about his own citizens, Putin doesnt.

No he doesn’t. Netanyahu opened fire on his own people on October 7 and then bombed the hell out of the hostages

 

[QuietB]

This is going to be very controversial to say the least.

US to give Israel 'compensation' if it hits acceptable targets in Iran - report

Israel has vowed a response to the attack, which saw over 180 missiles fired at Israel, killing a single Palestinian in the West Bank.

www.jpost.com

'The US has reportedly offered Israel a "compensation package" if it refrains from attacking certain targets in Iran, according to a report in Kan11 on Sunday.

Amichai Stein told them that he had received reports from US officials that the US had offered Israel a "compensation package" if it refrained from hitting specific targets in Iran.

This package was offered during negotiations between officials of the two countries on the type of response to the attack from Iran.

The package would include a total guarantee of comprehensive diplomatic protection as well as a weapons package and was offered directly in return for holding off on striking certain targets in Iran.

Quid pro Quo​

Stein summed it up, saying, "An American official said, 'If you don't hit targets A, B, C, we will provide you with diplomatic protection and an arms package.'"

"Israeli officials responded saying, 'We consider the United States and listen to them. But we will do anything and everything we can to protect the citizens and the security of the State of Israel.'
..."

Might be time for the US to have their own USS Liberty moment. Here is your weapons package you didn’t want - now pull your head in.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

This is why I can't read these threads for long.

Was a horrible thing to post.

 

[QuietB]

How do people think Israel should have responded after October 7th attacks? Genuine question?

Most wars see huge civilian casualties. The USA nuked Japan twice to stop them.

Germany was basically flattened in WW2.

Most agree that the response should have been something other than genocide

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

There is no way anyone will accept Zionists to rule over Palestinians. Absolutely no way. That is not a reasonable offer. They can never be trusted to rule over Palestinians full stop. Plus, Zionists wouldn't agree to that anyway, because that would mean the thing they've committed atrocities for in the preceding 7 decades would be realised. That thing would be an Arab majority. They know they cannot maintain a Zionist regime as well as a democracy with a majority Arab population.

The only immediate solution would be a two-state solution with Palestinians having self-determination and their own state. I can also see some people accept one state with non-Zionist rulership. Also not some BS offer of "you can have a de-militarised state". Currently the US and the Israelis are the only two opposed to a two-state solution. I don't even acknowledge American leaders insisting that they want a two state solution because they consistently vote with the Israelis.

As for public opinion, I'm not overselling it. I've been following the issue of Palestine literally all my life. Up until 12 months ago, most people considered the issue of Palestine to be a foreign war between two historic rivals. The last 12 months helped shift that narrative with the help of social media documenting war crimes in real time. I know Zionists still have power and control today, but change happens over time. They can't get away with propaganda they were able to get away with 10 or 20 years ago. They still operate like Islamophobia and Anti-Arab sentiments are post-9/11 levels and it isn't working. It may take decades before we see real results and change, but it's in motion.

Do you think Americans in general gave a shit about black South Africans back then? One thing Americans care about however is America. Do you think Americans are happy when an American Senator says it's more important to fund the Israelis than putting that money into helping Hurricane Helene victims? There is a growing number of Americans on both sides of the political spectrum that do not want the US to fund foreign wars so they invest that money into Americans. They are using taxpayer dollars after all.

Regarding the US, how did Apartheid South Africa fall when the US had Nelson Mandela on their terror watch list until 2008? it was through boycotts and widespread protests that continued to spread until it brought change. The US will continue their relationship with the Israelis until that relationship is too harmful. They may not care about other countries, but the American people are realising that they come second to the Israelis. So they don't really need to care about Palestine to force a change.

The American people actually come third behind the Israelis and then also after the millions of illegal immigrants who have been strategically brought in and bought off.

 

[Lsta062]

They seem to believe that they will be able to kill their way to peace. For every Hamas or Hezbollah fighter they kill there are 2 or more new recruits. It’s as though they are trying to create as much hatred for themselves as possible. The problem doesn’t disappear if Bibi leaves, most Israelis want the Palestinians gone as much as Bibi, they have been completely dehumanised.

That is true, there was someone like this before Bibi, and there will probably be someone like him afterwards.

The Israeli government doesn’t want a two-state solution either, so I really don’t know when the end to this will come. Palestinians are still being treated as garbage, and the Western governments still side with the oppressor. It’s a vicious cycle.

Oppression -> irreparable damage -> acknowledgement of wrongdoings -> no lessons learnt due to performative/virtue signalling actions -> oppression -> irreparable damage -> acknowledgement of wrongdoings etc.

The holocaust, the South African apartheid, the brutal colonisation of many countries in the world, the brutal treatment of slaves in the US, the Iraqi/Afghani invasion under false pretence, and we have this still Palestinian situation ongoing.

You’re right about the dehumanisation part too. Killing Palestinians would feel heavy on the one that saw them as equals. With the signs shown by IDF soldiers, it doesn’t even seem they consider Palestinians as humans. Very sad