Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack III

[Geelong_Sicko]

Sabra&Shatilla(/sp.) 1st Intifada ... hmm , think it was second one bro

Yeah, Ariel was defence minister at the time of the slaughter in South Lebanon and had to resign his post in an exercise of finger-wagging-but-not-much-else. He was P.M during the second intifada

 

[JayJ20]

I'm referring to concessions that would be offered in a two state solution. My point is that - should the tide turn against Israel and it ran the risk of losing US support, Israel would sooner moderate it's position rather than be 'dismantled'.


Sometimes it does - sometimes it doesn't. 'Change' may see sympathy for the Palestinian cause but it won't see the dismantling of the Israeli sovereign state. We will sooner see a nuclear apocalypse before we see a world without Israel.


Americans with actual power understand the economic, strategic and military benefits of supporting the continued existence of a sovereign Israeli state and ally.


They may put pressure on the Israeli state to moderate - just as they put pressure on the South African state to end apartheid. They will not demand the sovereign Israeli state be 'dismantled' though. Sorry.

I didn't say an end to an Israeli state. More a dismantling of the Zionist regime in the same way South Africa is still South Africa, but without the Apartheid regime. Or the US post Jim Crow. Zionism is an ideology that can be dismantled.

Also, "people with actual power" won't be around in 50 years time. It's the younger Millennials, Gen Z and Gen Alpha who will grow up hearing Zionism being synonymous with genocide. History will be told by upcoming generations. Millennials, Gen Z and Gen Alpha have via social media seen the atrocities committed against Palestinians. Polls among young Americans even today have a clear shift towards the Palestinian cause compared to older generations. At the moment, it's the older generations that are in charge. But it won't last long. But my opinion is that world war III will happen way before we get to that point so I guess it's a pointless discussion.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

How do people think Israel should have responded after October 7th attacks? Genuine question?

Most wars see huge civilian casualties. The USA nuked Japan twice to stop them.

Germany was basically flattened in WW2.

What if Israeli policies didn't enable extremists to perform a massacre in the first place? Horrible as it was, history did not begin with the October 7th 2023 attack.

 

[Lsta062]

How do people think Israel should have responded after October 7th attacks? Genuine question?

Most wars see huge civilian casualties. The USA nuked Japan twice to stop them.

Germany was basically flattened in WW2.

That’s the problem. “After October 7”. Seems that every attack done to Western (or Western-affiliated) countries undergoes date-ification. There are too many to choose from for the Palestinians.

Anyway, this isn’t when the conflict started. Palestinians have been under attack and oppressed by the Israeli government for several years. I remember seeing videos and news articles detailing how the IDF soldiers stormed Al-Aqsa mosque during Ramadan (i.e., these Palestinians are fasting) almost every year from mid 2010s up until (and maybe even including) COVID years. We’ve seen independent journalists travel to the streets of Palestine and be astounded that she had more flexibility in travelling on the streets than a Palestinian tour guide who grew up there all his life.

Even the water is being controlled by the Israeli government. Even if we don’t agree with what Hamas did (I’m a Palestinian supporter and not a Hamas supporter), what they did on October 7 was not an isolated attack with no context like the mainstream media portrays it. Hamas and Hezb themselves were formed because of the Israeli government’s oppression to begin with. So, anything they do is retaliation, even if we don’t really agree with what they’re doing.

Simply put, there is no way the Israeli government is ever truly the one “responding”. They’re not because they started this whole thing by forming a settler-colonial state. And they continue to implement this system until today, showing absolutely no intention to change that anytime soon.

To answer your question anyway, the Israeli government should review their oppression of Palestinian people in response to “October 7”. They should treat Palestinians as humans.

 

[Present Not Past]

What if Israeli policies didn't enable extremists to perform a massacre in the first place? Horrible as it was, history did not begin with the October 7th 2023 attack.

"History did not begin with the October 7th 2023 attack".
Israel has been land hungry for so long.
Israel has so many people to house, in such a small area, that they have been clearing Palestinians off their lands for the last 77 years.

 

[Suspense]

I didn't say an end to an Israeli state. More a dismantling of the Zionist regime in the same way South Africa is still South Africa, but without the Apartheid regime. Or the US post Jim Crow. Zionism is an ideology that can be dismantled.

Zionism is a Jewish nationalist movement with the goal of supporting a Jewish national state in Palestine. How do you 'dismantle Zionism' whilst still retaining an Israeli state?

Also, "people with actual power" won't be around in 50 years time. It's the younger Millennials, Gen Z and Gen Alpha who will grow up hearing Zionism being synonymous with genocide.

'Actual power' in the US is structural, institutional, and transgenerational. The notion that the US will abandon Israel to its own fate because Pro-Palestine memes are popular on TikTok right now is very naive.

 

[JayJ20]

The Jewish settlers legally purchased land within the Ottoman empire to form their own state - they did not expel the Arabs by force or by violence.

Arab Palestinians responded with violence towards Jewish settlers. These are the facts.


The are numerous historically documented examples of Palestinian Arab revolts against the Yishuv.


Nonsense. The wars started because the Arabs were opposed to the Balfour Declaration. The Allies won Palestine and (at the time) had every right to partition it as they wish - including the creation of a sovereign Israeli state.

The Palestinian Arabs have revolted ever since and look how far it has got them. Without meaning to excuse the excesses of continued Israeli aggression, the fact remains that every Palestinian casualty - every starving child, every dying mother, is the ongoing result of Palestinian realpolitik failure at every point in its dire, miserable history.

Wow some load of crap. They purchased land to purchase land. What do you mean "form their own state"? You're talking as if the whole Israeli state was purchased land from every single Palestinian living there. As if all the land was taken by consent.
If they purchased land and moved in to live alongside Palestinians, then we wouldn't be talking about this today. Muslims and Christians in the Levant have lived with Jews for centuries.

Of course the Arabs were rightfully opposed to the Balfour Declaration. The declaration itself was a betrayal by the British and the French to the commitment they made to the Arabs. This mindset that the Brits could divide that land however they wanted without any care for the impact of the population is exactly the problem with Western Colonialism. It happened in my country in Africa as well as other African countries. It also happened across the Middle East, Australia, the Americas etc.

The actions of the British and the French is not justified. Palestine had around a 95-99% Arab population at the time. What sense does it make for them to dedicate that state to the 1-4%, then arm them, create the state and blame the Arabs for not accepting a nonsense deal? "Revolt" as if the majority of the population weren't Palestinian Arabs.

The Brits took the right for Palestinians to self-determine away from them and created a settler colonial state that until this day is causing major issues for the indigenous population there. Yeah many Palestinians are descendants of the Canaanites so I'm not even going to go there.

Also, the Nakba where some 750,000 Palestinians were terrorised and expelled with no right to return until today happened. The was done to create a Jewish majority Ethno-State on Palestinian land. Let's stop this nonsense Israeli talking points.

Fact is, they never migrated there with the intention of living amicably with the Arabs.

 

[JayJ20]

Zionism is a Jewish nationalist movement with the goal of supporting a Jewish national state in Palestine. How do you 'dismantle Zionism' whilst still retaining an Israeli state?


'Actual power' in the US is structural, institutional, and transgenerational. The notion that the US will abandon Israel to its own fate because Pro-Palestine memes are popular on TikTok right now is very naive.

"Israel" is just a name. There are many Israelis and Jews that consider themselves more progressive and don't subscribe to Zionist ideology. The dismantling of Zionism can happen from within.

Haven't we heard about how the Israeli state is "the only democracy in the Middle East" with a "thriving minority group" (which is a load of BS)? Don't they portray themselves to have western values? Or is that perhaps another Israeli lie?

There will never be peace with a Zionist state committing to Jewish nationalism on Palestinian land. It will never work.

Structural, institutional and transgenerational change can and has already happened all over the western world in the last 100-150 years. You're naive (and part of the problem) if you think real change cannot occur over time. Change is not made by the bystanders and the resistors to change.

Also, who even says the US will maintain their current power? Every Empire will eventually fall. The US is no different. There may come a time where the US need to focus on their population rather than funding foreign wars.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Zionism is a Jewish nationalist movement with the goal of supporting a Jewish national state in Palestine. How do you 'dismantle Zionism' whilst still retaining an Israeli state?

There might very well be two Zionisms at play here;

Zionism - Israel is a homeland for the Jewish People

Exclusionary Zionism - Israel is a homeland PURELY for the Jewish People and others who live on the land do so solely at the behest of the Jewish People or their representatives.

The first Zionism seems to be at least open to co-existence. The second an affront to humanity as are all ethno-exclusive states and movements.

 

[JayJ20]

What gets me the most is not only committing to and supporting the atrocities committed by the Israeli government, but then claiming moral superiority. "Moral Zionists" and "Peace loving Zionists" are literally oxymorons. No Zionist is moral or peace loving because the ideology and its application contradicts that. They're just Jewish supremacists no different to white supremacists.
It's just such a narcissistic view.

I'm at a point where I said all that I said in this thread and there's nothing else to cover. If after 12 months people don't realise the stupidity and hypocrisy of Israeli talking points, then I'm not going to waste further time.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

There might very well be two Zionisms at play here;

Zionism - Israel is a homeland for the Jewish People

Exclusionary Zionism - Israel is a homeland PURELY for the Jewish People and others who live on the land do so solely at the behest of the Jewish People or their representatives.

The first Zionism seems to be at least open to co-existence. The second an affront to humanity as are all ethno-exclusive states and movements.

And when Israel's Knesset enact a law enshrining Jewish supremacy, we know which Zionism they are about.

The right to exercise national self-determination is unique to Jewish people, by Israeli law.

The theft of and settlement of land is an Israeli national value, by law.

The parallels with the Nuremberg laws are stark.

 

[Suspense]

Wow some load of crap. They purchased land to purchase land. What do you mean "form their own state"?

That was part of the Zionist plan - to buy Palestinian territories in order to form a Jewish national state. Look at organisations such as the Jewish National Fund (established at the Fifth Zionist Congress), Palestine Land Development Company and the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association (I mean, the name kind of gives it away).

You're talking as if the whole Israeli state was purchased land from every single Palestinian living there. As if all the land was taken by consent.

No I didn't say that at all. They settled in Palestine peacefully and begun to purchase land to establish a national state. The Balfour Declaration promised them a national state which increased the land purchases.

The Arabs revolted to Jewish settlement with violence and subsequently lost more land by force.

If they purchased land and moved in to live alongside Palestinians, then we wouldn't be talking about this today. Muslims and Christians in the Levant have lived with Jews for centuries.

That wasn't the plan - they wanted their own state to ensure they would be free from persecution. They did not want to live in a state where they would continue to live as second-class citizens under Islamic rule. You know this.

Of course the Arabs were rightfully opposed to the Balfour Declaration. The declaration itself was a betrayal by the British and the French to the commitment they made to the Arabs.

They made a commitment to the Hashemite Arabs (the Arabs of Hajez) not the Palestinian Arabs. Any agreement with the Hashemite Arabs regarding the future of Palestine is considered as vague and unclear by most scholars.

This mindset that the Brits could divide that land however they wanted without any care for the impact of the population is exactly the problem with Western Colonialism. It happened in my country in Africa as well as other African countries. It also happened across the Middle East, Australia, the Americas etc.

Well they were somewhat bound by the League of Nations Covenant but it was also pretty vague:

To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.

The actions of the British and the French is not justified. Palestine had around a 95-99% Arab population at the time. What sense does it make for them to dedicate that state to the 1-4%, then arm them, create the state and blame the Arabs for not accepting a nonsense deal? "Revolt" as if the majority of the population weren't Palestinian Arabs.

The Brits took the right for Palestinians to self-determine away from them and created a settler colonial state that until this day is causing major issues for the indigenous population there. Yeah many Palestinians are descendants of the Canaanites so I'm not even going to go there.

Also, the Nakba where some 750,000 Palestinians were terrorised and expelled with no right to return until today happened. The was done to create a Jewish majority Ethno-State on Palestinian land. Let's stop this nonsense Israeli talking points.

Fact is, they never migrated there with the intention of living amicably with the Arabs.

You are looking back at events from the early 1900s with a 2024 worldview with notions of 'fairness' or 'the right to self-determination' - which was then a rather nascent concept at the time as opposed to the principal of international law that it is now.

Was it 'fair' that the Jews were exiled from their homelands by the Assyrian empire? Or by the Babylonians? Or the Romans? In what year did 'fairness' start?

The objective fact is the Muslim Arabs won that land through conquest and subsequently lost it through conquest. Moaning about 'fairness' or 'the sneaky brits tricked us' will not change that fact one iota.

 

[Suspense]

"Israel" is just a name. There are many Israelis and Jews that consider themselves more progressive and don't subscribe to Zionist ideology. The dismantling of Zionism can happen from within.

Haven't we heard about how the Israeli state is "the only democracy in the Middle East" with a "thriving minority group" (which is a load of BS)? Don't they portray themselves to have western values? Or is that perhaps another Israeli lie?

There will never be peace with a Zionist state committing to Jewish nationalism on Palestinian land. It will never work.

But that is what Zionism is - a sovereign national Jewish state on Palestinian land.

You are avoiding the question so I will be more blunt - does this 'dismantling of Zionism' mean 'dismantling' a sovereign Israeli state on (but not all) Palestinian land?

 

[blackcat]

He was P.M during the second intifada

yeah i was doing mental arithmetic triangulating when Sharon did Templemount walk , atleast i think that was* the <provocation>

*not 100% buying a 'provocation' , it was two 14yo hormone boys decide to fight behind the shelter sheds after school

 

[blackcat]

He started the second one.

yep , as just told Geelong Sicko was doing mental arithmetic and triangulating chronology

 

[Suspense]

There might very well be two Zionisms at play here;

Zionism - Israel is a homeland for the Jewish People

Exclusionary Zionism - Israel is a homeland PURELY for the Jewish People and others who live on the land do so solely at the behest of the Jewish People or their representatives.

The first Zionism seems to be at least open to co-existence. The second an affront to humanity as are all ethno-exclusive states and movements.

I can understand that but the claim was to 'dismantle Zionism' (as opposed to 'dismantle exclusionary Zionism') whilst also simultaneously supporting a sovereign Israeli state on Palestinian land at all. Seems illogical.

 

[PenskeFile]

Radical Islam is different from the goals of those in power in those regions, they use radical Islam for their own means, which is about power and wealth.

Israel being a US client state is a threat to them economically in the region.

Israel and the US claim they can do whatever the **** they want cos everyone else wants to kill Jews just cos they are Jewish and nothing to do with the actions of Israel.

It’s very transparent. Of course there are terrible people and govts over there, but none of them have been in any danger of threatening Israel with the world’s biggest super power backing them.

It’s the same BS justifications we saw for invading Iraq twice, and yet again people fall for it.

I liked this post, but I don’t really understand how anyone can think that Israel is a client state of the US, it is surely the other way around. No US politician can seemingly get anywhere near power without pledging allegiance to Israel. The US government has seemingly unlimited funds available for Israel and bigger all to solve any of their own crises, and it’s all pretty much bipartisan.

 

[ferball]

Was it 'fair' that the Jews were exiled from their homelands by the Assyrian empire? Or by the Babylonians? Or the Romans? In what year did 'fairness' start?

The objective fact is the Muslim Arabs won that land through conquest and subsequently lost it through conquest. Moaning about 'fairness' or 'the sneaky brits tricked us' will not change that fact one iota.

This is a crock, objective facts show Palestinians have a high degree of genetic material that is associated with that area for millenia, back to at least 3000 years ago and they are also related to modern european jewish people and descend from israelite populations who lived there before the expansion of Islam.

The idea that they should then be expelled from a place to make way for their relatives who haven't held a continuous relationship with that same place is ludicrous and by 2024 standards unacceptable.

Yet that is what is happening right now and people like you are trying to justify it by saying some form of cultural apartheid is the way to go. Simply so Europeans can preserve their own genetic purity and keep the pesky Jews out of a place they've lived for millenia (ie Europe) and have genetic connections to as well.

One of the major reasons for the existence of Zionism is that Europeans didn't want Jewish people living in Europe. That's why they supported it.

Its no wonder a project/ideology driven by such ****ed up reasoning has had such ****ed up outcomes.

 

[blackcat]

I can get understand that but the claim was to 'dismantle Zionism' ( 'dismantle exclusionary Zionism') whilst also simultaneously supporting a sovereign Israeli state on Palestinian land at all. Seems illogical.

When League_of_only_38_Nations* voted to partition Palestine in 54 the Soviet Foreign Minister approved , i think Finkelstein stresses this

*UN then circe 25% of States , and now US Russia Sino's India have veto powers

 

[blackcat]

This is a crock, objective facts show Palestinians have a high degree of genetic material that is associated with that area for millenia, back to at least 3000 years ago and they are also related to modern european jewish people and descend from israelite populations who lived there before the expansion of Islam.

The idea that they should then be expelled from a place to make way for their relatives who haven't held a continuous relationship with that same place is ludicrous and by 2024 standards unacceptable.

Yet that is what is happening right now and people like you are trying to justify it by saying some form of cultural apartheid is the way to go. Simply so Europeans can preserve their own genetic purity and keep the pesky Jews out of a place they've lived for millenia (ie Europe) and have genetic connections to as well.

One of the major reasons for the existence of Zionism is that Europeans didn't want Jewish people living in Europe. That's why they supported it.

Its no wonder a project/ideology driven by such ****ed up reasoning has had such ****ed up outcomes.

@ Avi Shlaim Iraqi/Israeli/Mizrahi-jew/Englishman*

*I assume he only has working visa in England for history faculty at English redbrick university , but he is pushing 85 now

I think Shlaim is the foremost researcher in academe on expulsion of mizrahi jews from Iraq and Egypt , easy to find

hot tip: i always take the most critical takes of commentators from their own side , so if one neutralises the name of the commentator then the other side does a staccato headnod , until you tell/reveal the name of the commentator

Zionist takes from anti-Zionists
Anti-Zionist takes from Zionists

steelmanning and debunking

always making the devil's advocate case

heterodox and at heart the contrarian

 

[Suspense]

This is a crock, objective facts show Palestinians have a high degree of genetic material that is associated with that area for millenia, back to at least 3000 years ago and they are also related to modern european jewish people and descend from israelite populations who lived there before the expansion of Islam.

How does this dispute any of what I said?

You quoted me but didn't actually answer the question - was the exile of the Jews from their homeland 'fair'?

The idea that they should then be expelled from a place to make way for their relatives who haven't held a continuous relationship with that same place is ludicrous and by 2024 standards unacceptable.

The Balfour declaration was made in 1917 not 2024 - so it is besides the point.

Yet that is what is happening right now and people like you are trying to justify it by saying some form of cultural apartheid is the way to go. Simply so Europeans can preserve their own genetic purity and keep the pesky Jews out of a place they've lived for millenia (ie Europe) and have genetic connections to as well.

Quote me where I said that. The current situation and plight of the Palestinians is awful. I don't support either Islamic extremism or Israeli aggression - however I can understand why parties adopt these positions.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

What gets me the most is not only committing to and supporting the atrocities committed by the Israeli government, but then claiming moral superiority. "Moral Zionists" and "Peace loving Zionists" are literally oxymorons. No Zionist is moral or peace loving because the ideology and its application contradicts that. They're just Jewish supremacists no different to white supremacists.
It's just such a narcissistic view.

I'm at a point where I said all that I said in this thread and there's nothing else to cover. If after 12 months people don't realise the stupidity and hypocrisy of Israeli talking points, then I'm not going to waste further time.

Types of Zionism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Markfs]

One step at a time. That's what happened with the collapse of Apartheid South Africa. It started with public opinion and protests, then grew as time went on. France publicly opposing the Israelis never happened before and would never have happened 12 months ago.

I don't expect them to oppose them any time soon, but there'll come a point where supporting them will actively become harmful just like supporting Apartheid South Africa was.

if you can't see the difference between US supporting Israel and trading with South Africa during apartheid, then enjoy your wait. The US will never stop supporting Israel - in fact it will continue to sell and give it weapons. I think we all know that.

The only way to stop wars in the Middle East is to disarm Arab countries, and give Israel lands that make up the "promised land". I would probably add that any Arabs remaining with the newly enlarged Israel would need to accept a form of non-citizenship and those who couldn't accept that, would need to be expelled. I think that might fix the issue, but I'm open to suggestions.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Netanyahu has done a good job of making Israel look more extreme than Hamas and Hezbollah. He's even making Iran look fairly moderate.
What a nutbag.