Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack III

[Not Important]

 

[Markfs]

i’d like to believe this, but, sadly, the evidence isn’t there of growing resistance as i see it. those who dare to speak out are quickly put upon by the zionist machine that is so powerful and influential.

I agree. I watched the Medhi/Bassam chat last night and Medhi said that he feels that there always has to be optimism or you give in. Bassam was more pessimistic. I'm with that view.

 

[treeebeard]

They were a lobby group who lobbied hard, but they just didn't have this powerful hold over US politicians - that's really getting into dodgy areas and dodgy stereotypes. They couldn't even persuade America to become liberal with asylum for holocaust survivors.

LOL, didn't have power over politicians. They lobbied for and were given an entire country that was already populated.

 

[sr36]

LOL, didn't have power over politicians. They lobbied for and were given an entire country that was already populated.

Persuading someone doesn't mean you have power over them. But you run with your trope.

 

[Markfs]

You two can compromise....AIPAC wasn't formed until 50s and didnt take control of things until the last few decades...

 

[treeebeard]

Persuading someone doesn't mean you have power over them. But you run with your trope.

I suppose you believe fossil fuel company lobbying is just a trope too

 

[treeebeard]

You two can compromise....AIPAC wasn't formed until 50s and didnt take control of things until the last few decades...

There were lobby groups that existed well before then. IIRC one even went to Uganda to check out a potential homeland, that they could have had of they wanted it.

 

[sr36]

I suppose you believe fossil fuel company lobbying is just a trope too

Now idea how powerful the fossil fuel lobby was in the US in 1946. Was it powerful?

I suspect the middle east would be a very different place without as much Western withdrawl if it was as pwerful then as it is now.

 

[treeebeard]

Now idea how powerful the fossil fuel lobby was in the US in 1946. Was it powerful?

I suspect the middle east would be a very different place without as much Western withdrawl if it was as pwerful then as it is now.

The US government had a vested interest financially in the oil industry, so lobbying wouldn't have been needed. And climate change wasn't known to fossil fuel companies until the 50s. The billions of propaganda came after that.

 

[Markfs]

They were a lobby group who lobbied hard, but they just didn't have this powerful hold over US politicians - that's really getting into dodgy areas and dodgy stereotypes. They couldn't even persuade America to become liberal with asylum for holocaust survivors.

I found this article and thought of you. It's outrageous of the NBC...

Rep. Jamaal Bowman, a vocal Israel critic and 'squad' member, loses primary

NBC News projects Westchester County Executive George Latimer defeated Bowman after a bitter and expensive Democratic race in New York’s 16th District.

www.nbcnews.com

by the way, i was going to have bacon and eggs for breakkie this morning but I realised that the bacon was sooooo anti-semitic, so i fried some wurst....

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

There were lobby groups that existed well before then. IIRC one even went to Uganda to check out a potential homeland, that they could have had of they wanted it.

No matter where these proto-Zionists chose a homeland though, what would have happened to the people already living there, in that space? The issue to my mind was never 'homeland' itself, it was displacement rather than co-existence or harmonious amalgamation of populations. A homeland at the expense of an existing population will always ask for trouble.

The displaced are ALWAYS going to be angry, no matter where they are.

 

[sr36]

I found this article and thought of you. It's outrageous of the NBC...

Rep. Jamaal Bowman, a vocal Israel critic and 'squad' member, loses primary

NBC News projects Westchester County Executive George Latimer defeated Bowman after a bitter and expensive Democratic race in New York’s 16th District.

www.nbcnews.com

by the way, i was going to have bacon and eggs for breakkie this morning but I realised that the bacon was sooooo anti-semitic, so i fried some wurst....

Yes Mark. Hitler was right. The power of Jewish lobby groups in the 30s and 40s was off the charts. They were so effective.

 

[sr36]

No matter where these proto-Zionists chose a homeland though, what would have happened to the people already living there, in that space? The issue to my mind was never 'homeland' itself, it was displacement rather than co-existence or harmonious amalgamation of populations. A homeland at the expense of an existing population will always ask for trouble.

The displaced are ALWAYS going to be angry, no matter where they are.

The world didn't want to take in during or post holocaust refugees, despite the supposedly incredibly powerful lobby groups of the day. America and Palestine were the places accepting them relatively easily after the war and the Yanks had pushed back hard refusing entry during the holocaust and felt they'd taken more than enough after the war. It was an out of sight, out of mind solution.

 

[ipswichpies]

Same thing Israel and the USA are doing in Gaza, and the Turks as allies you would not want many enemies with them on your side I just Iran gets involved on the Syrian side and then then Israel and the USA will start in Iraq next.

 

[ipswichpies]

I hope this is just badly worded. The depiction of a powerful Zionist lobby group bossing around the US president in 1947 is ridiculous.

Truman met with people arguing for a cause and they persuaded him with reason - and the need for Jewish self determination after what had just occurred still seems a pretty reasonable reason.

The Zionists in the USA notably the Hollywood film industry already had immense power and pull by the time Truman was running for office so your claim about it being ridiculous is so wide of the mark that this is the ridiculous comment not his comment.

I hope you do not think Aipec has sprung in the last few years only, surely you able to recognise the power of the Israeli lobby especially in Hollywood why do you think Arabs have always been the bogeyman.

 

[Scotland]

No matter where these proto-Zionists chose a homeland though, what would have happened to the people already living there, in that space? The issue to my mind was never 'homeland' itself, it was displacement rather than co-existence or harmonious amalgamation of populations. A homeland at the expense of an existing population will always ask for trouble.

The displaced are ALWAYS going to be angry, no matter where they are.

I don't know why people try to frame the selection of Palestine like it's a family deciding where to take its next holiday. Zionism is a pretty stupid idea on the face of it, but it's not like the area isn't spiritually significant to the Jews. I mean how do people think "European Jews" like the Ashkenazi ended up in Europe? African Americans are Americans and have ancestry in the United States dating back as far as the 16th century. But no one decided to set up Liberia in South East Asia or the Baltics.

Christopher Hitchens used to say Zionism is a stupid idea but many states are founded on injustices and foolishness. Also a Jewish homeland anywhere doesn't work if they are just being relocated to be persecuted minority group in a new spot. Jews and Arabs may have lived peacefully side by side for thousands of years (ha) but there is no Muslim majority country with a meaningful Jewish population today. Turkey has <15,000 out of 85m and that is the biggest.

When the British hatched the partition plan the total population of Palestine (Israel + Gaza + West Bank) was about 700,000. Arabs and Jews both migrated to Palestine when it was Ottoman territory. By the time of the first Arab-Israeli war that was 1.9m. Today it is about 15m. The majority of displaced persons today weren't even alive in 1948. And it was always a small land mass that is mostly desert. It is only going to get worse from a population and resources standpoint. The problem the Brits/UN had drawing up borders is the same problems that exist today. The "Trump Peace Plan" borders with Israeli enclaves inside Palestinian territory is totally impractical. Wherever you draw a line someone won't be happy about the side they end up on and will either end up a citizen of the wrong state, moving state or stateless. Personally I don't really care if Israeli settlers in the West Bank have to move to the other side of the "green line" but by the same token if Fatah or Hamas or their allies attack Israel again and lose more territory again at what point do you have say you had your chance?

The other aspect of displaced persons is displaced Jews. You can argue 'Hey I didn't ask for Israel to exist, why do I care if Jews had to flee the Middle East and North Africa as a result?' but it happened and they had to go somewhere. And the countries that declared war on Israel and started expelling Jews maybe need to take a little responsibility also. Second or third generation Israelis don't have a right to return to Iran or Yemen. In pure numbers more Jews left the Muslim world for Israel than Arabs left Israeli territory. And now they and their descendants make up up half the population of Israel. Do people want them to go back to where they came from?

 

[ipswichpies]

I don't know why people try to frame the selection of Palestine like it's a family deciding where to take its next holiday. Zionism is a pretty stupid idea on the face of it, but it's not like the area isn't spiritually significant to the Jews. I mean how do people think "European Jews" like the Ashkenazi ended up in Europe? African Americans are Americans and have ancestry in the United States dating back as far as the 16th century. But no one decided to set up Liberia in South East Asia or the Baltics.

Christopher Hitchens used to say Zionism is a stupid idea but many states are founded on injustices and foolishness. Also a Jewish homeland anywhere doesn't work if they are just being relocated to be persecuted minority group in a new spot. Jews and Arabs may have lived peacefully side by side for thousands of years (ha) but there is no Muslim majority country with a meaningful Jewish population today. Turkey has <15,000 out of 85m and that is the biggest.

When the British hatched the partition plan the total population of Palestine (Israel + Gaza + West Bank) was about 700,000. Arabs and Jews both migrated to Palestine when it was Ottoman territory. By the time of the first Arab-Israeli war that was 1.9m. Today it is about 15m. The majority of displaced persons today weren't even alive in 1948. And it was always a small land mass that is mostly desert. It is only going to get worse from a population and resources standpoint. The problem the Brits/UN had drawing up borders is the same problems that exist today. The "Trump Peace Plan" borders with Israeli enclaves inside Palestinian territory is totally impractical. Wherever you draw a line someone won't be happy about the side they end up on and will either end up a citizen of the wrong state, moving state or stateless. Personally I don't really care if Israeli settlers in the West Bank have to move to the other side of the "green line" but by the same token if Fatah or Hamas or their allies attack Israel again and lose more territory again at what point do you have say you had your chance?

The other aspect of displaced persons is displaced Jews. You can argue 'Hey I didn't ask for Israel to exist, why do I care if Jews had to flee the Middle East and North Africa as a result?' but it happened and they had to go somewhere. And the countries that declared war on Israel and started expelling Jews maybe need to take a little responsibility also. Second or third generation Israelis don't have a right to return to Iran or Yemen. In pure numbers more Jews left the Muslim world for Israel than Arabs left Israeli territory. And now they and their descendants make up up half the population of Israel. Do people want them to go back to where they came from?

Iran after Israel has the largest population of Jewish people in West Asia and they live there in peace able to practice their religion in harmony with Shia Iran.

 

[Blue1980]

Is this that thing where HTW makes up something no one said, to argue against it?

The thing is HTW is the biggest campaigner who posts here.

 

[Markfs]

Yes Mark. Hitler was right. The power of Jewish lobby groups in the 30s and 40s was off the charts. They were so effective.

That strategy is a year old....but I'll pass it on to NBC that they're anti-semitic...but the bar is so slow, you might even qualify.

 

[Markfs]

No matter where these proto-Zionists chose a homeland though, what would have happened to the people already living there, in that space? The issue to my mind was never 'homeland' itself, it was displacement rather than co-existence or harmonious amalgamation of populations. A homeland at the expense of an existing population will always ask for trouble.

The displaced are ALWAYS going to be angry, no matter where they are.

i think the british found it easy. I would have liked to see them subdivide dorset....

 

[Markfs]

Iran after Israel has the largest population of Jewish people in West Asia and they live there in peace able to practice their religion in harmony with Shia Iran.

Interesting eh.... It seems that the 8,000 of them are going to submit a claim to the UN to take possession of Iran...

 

[Markfs]

World should have given Jews a ‘piece of Germany​

 

[sr36]

That strategy is a year old....but I'll pass it on to NBC that they're anti-semitic...but the bar is so slow, you might even qualify.

Your strategy is centuries old.

 

[sr36]

The Zionists in the USA notably the Hollywood film industry already had immense power and pull by the time Truman was running for office so your claim about it being ridiculous is so wide of the mark that this is the ridiculous comment not his comment.

I hope you do not think Aipec has sprung in the last few years only, surely you able to recognise the power of the Israeli lobby especially in Hollywood why do you think Arabs have always been the bogeyman.

We've got a portrayal of incredible influence of the Jewish lobby during this era, so much so that Truman did what he was told. Meanwhile, the USA didn't allow entry to Jewish refugees from the holocaust until the war was over - despite lots of petitioning from Jewish leaders.

It's an ugly fiction that you're pushing.

 

[Markfs]

I must admit that when I see government representatives show such blatant anti-semitism, I'm shocked....