It's Official Pagan Sacked

[jacko57]

Recruiting responsibilities aside.....I throw the following up for "great Coaching" debate!

With the likes of carey, Archer, McKernan (in full flight), Scholl, Allison, Martyn, Roberts etc etc etc.....my mother would be able to coach that team to a premiership.

Schimma couldn't.

 

[Long bombs to snake]

Teague
Johnson
Clarke
Bannister
McGrath
Martyn
Bryan
Deluca
McKernan
Kenna
Cranage
Harford
Eccles
Gallagher
Mott
Morrell
Plunkett
Smith
McClaren
Longmuir
Angwin
Saddinton
McKenzie
Cloke
Ackland
Chambers
Bowyer


Onya Pag's. Damn those draft penalties.

I saw him on the TV last night and actually felt for him. He was pretty emotional when talking about North, and you could tell where his heart is. And that's fine. I think that officially closed the book for me. Bitterness over.

Shore, Urch, Trotter, Perry, Chad Jones, Sansbury, LeCras, Sh Harvey, Picioane, Schwarze, Grima, Mick Stevens, Hay, Rawlings, Thurley, McKernan all recruited under Laidley so whats your point? All clubs make mistakes in trading/drafting and our current coach, whom i think we are all in agreeance deserves another contract, has certainly made his fair share. And we didn't get barred from participating in the first 2 rounds like Pagan did.

 

[Z_K]

Shore, Urch, Trotter, Perry, Chad Jones, Sansbury, LeCras, Sh Harvey, Picioane, Schwarze, Grima, Mick Stevens, Hay, Rawlings, Thurley, McKernan all recruited under Laidley so whats your point? All clubs make mistakes in trading/drafting and our current coach, whom i think we are all in agreeance deserves another contract, has certainly made his fair share. And we didn't get barred from participating in the first 2 rounds like Pagan did.

The list I put up weren't kids they made recruiting calls on. They were recycled or VFL hacks. Pagan took the soft option so many times and is rightfully canned for it.

I'm still to be convinced that he wasn't a North Melbourne mole sent to destroy Carlton from the inside.

 

[The Zebra]

Shore, Urch, Trotter, Perry, Chad Jones, Sansbury, LeCras, Sh Harvey, Picioane, Schwarze, Grima, Mick Stevens, Hay, Rawlings, Thurley, McKernan all recruited under Laidley so whats your point? All clubs make mistakes in trading/drafting and our current coach, whom i think we are all in agreeance deserves another contract, has certainly made his fair share. And we didn't get barred from participating in the first 2 rounds like Pagan did.

Still blaming the draft penalties amazes me. Of course they hurt, but Carlton people still suggest they hurt so much that they are still a few years away from being competitive.

They were barred from the first two rounds for two years.
We traded two sets of first and second round picks over two years for two guys who are not playing this year - one who will never play again.

We seem to be doing OK despite this.

Plus they have had three priority picks (including four top 5 picks and another top 10 pick)
Plus they have had four top 2 picks in the pre-season draft.
Plus they have had first pick in the rookie draft 3 times.

And in one of the years they were banned - they still got pick 2!!

 

[Shinboners]

I'm still to be convinced that he wasn't a North Melbourne mole sent to destroy Carlton from the inside.

I really don't know who has done the better job....Deni$ at Carlton or Miller at Richmond. It's just a shame we couldn't get a mole into Essendon and Collingwood.

 

[scottywiper]

Loved the way he got all misty eyed when asked about North's finals chances and said we could win it.
No prize for guessing where his heart lies.

 

[windsock]

I really don't know who has done the better job....Deni$ at Carlton or Miller at Richmond. It's just a shame we couldn't get a mole into Essendon and Collingwood.

Can't remember whether it was a post about either of these two but I recall a post made by your good self that alluded to this after another shallacking for one of these clubs. Twas very funny (and my retelling has done it justice!!)

 

[Hearts to hearts]

Loved the way he got all misty eyed when asked about North's finals chances and said we could win it.
No prize for guessing where his heart lies.

Yep. All is forgiven. And it was great that Arch, Carey, Harvey and others got out and stuck up for him during the day too.

Hope he and his wife enoyed their wine last night and he wakes up realising he is well shot of that place. Their problems predated him and will outlast him.

 

[Shinboners]

Can't remember whether it was a post about either of these two but I recall a post made by your good self that alluded to this after another shallacking for one of these clubs. Twas very funny (and my retelling has done it justice!!)

Ah, it's flattering when people remember my posts.

It was the Secret Agent Miller theory after Geelong had spanked the Tiggers.

 

[windsock]

Ah, it's flattering when people remember my posts.

It was the Secret Agent Miller theory after Geelong had spanked the Tiggers.

Indeed it was:

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324342&highlight=secret+agent+miller

Classic stuff

 

[BlueRoos]

The list I put up weren't kids they made recruiting calls on. They were recycled or VFL hacks. Pagan took the soft option so many times and is rightfully canned for it.

I'm still to be convinced that he wasn't a North Melbourne mole sent to destroy Carlton from the inside.

I agree that their recruiting has been crap, but that goes back far longer than DP. Just check through the Blues recruiting history to the early 90's. Thats the main reason why they are in the debacle they are in. The fact that DP walked in and combined with draft penalties was a recipe for disaster. To blame it purely on draft penalties is a real copout.

Yes DP did pick up a heap of retreads, but have a look when they were. He had a crap list and tried to cover holes with trades. He made 7 trades in 2003. He traded away Justin Murphy, Mckernan and Beaumont, all washed up for Harford, Clarke, Morrell & Teague. For a pick 51 he got Harford and johnson. He also traded pick 35 for Heath Scotalnd, which turned out to be a decent trade. In the draft he picked up Bowyer at pick 63 from the Hawks, and Bannister at pick 69. Big deal, if i was to gamble on a retread like the Roos have had some luck with at that pick i would.

His retreads after that year. Two more low trades in 2004, pick 57 and pick 67. In 2005 they traded pick 51. None for 2006.

The majority of VFL retreads you were talking about are in in pick 70's and higher. They were all in 03 and 04. Seems pretty clear from all that what condition he thought the Carlton list was in. Carlton have quite clearly taken a different direction the past few years. To say that DP was the reason the Blues have fallen apart completely and utterly ignores what went on the previous decade. It starts the story 3 quarters in. I just think its completely unfair to blame a coach when there is complete front Office incompetence for so many years.

It reiterates my point again that drafting and cap strategy is only just being understood by many clubs and the fans. You WON'T build a great team without great drafting, its as simple as that.

Woodson, how did your financially poor Steelers achieve all their years of success year after year of constantly losing their stars to Free agency. Your drafting has been superb, and a good recruiting team is worth its weight in gold (pardon the pun).

 

[giantroo]

Ratten has taken over the coaching for this year.

 

[giantroo]

Teague
Johnson
Clarke
Bannister
McGrath
Martyn
Bryan
Deluca
McKernan
Kenna
Cranage
Harford
Eccles
Gallagher
Mott
Morrell
Plunkett
Smith
McClaren
Longmuir
Angwin
Saddinton
McKenzie
Cloke
Ackland
Chambers
Bowyer

All hacks after they moved to blues.

Shore, Urch, Trotter, Perry, Chad Jones, Sansbury, LeCras, Sh Harvey, Picioane, Schwarze, Grima, Mick Stevens, Hay, Rawlings, Thurley, McKernan all recruited under Laidley so whats your point? All clubs make mistakes in trading/drafting and our current coach, whom i think we are all in agreeance deserves another contract, has certainly made his fair share. And we didn't get barred from participating in the first 2 rounds like Pagan did.

He has just done more than 20 mistakes. Ur comparing a coach who has only had 5 years experience to 16 years experience. Go figure

 

[Long bombs to snake]

All hacks after they moved to blues.






He has just done more than 20 mistakes. Ur comparing a coach who has only had 5 years experience to 16 years experience. Go figure

I'm comparing a coach who had his hands tied for 2 years (Pagan) to one who didn't (Laidley), experience means squat. Plenty of coaches with little experience have been successful. Whilst i also acknowledge that Laidley traded away 2 years of picks, it must be remembered that we actually got something in return for those picks unlike Pagan. Couldn't even trade into the first 2 rounds IIRC.

It should also be remembered that 12 of our last starting 22, currently 2nd on the ladder, were recruited under Pagan so i would argue he left a solid nucleus for Laidley to build on. Pagan was left with nothing.

 

[Pres]

I'm comparing a coach who had his hands tied for 2 years (Pagan) to one who didn't (Laidley), experience means squat. Plenty of coaches with little experience have been successful. Whilst i also acknowledge that Laidley traded away 2 years of picks, it must be remembered that we actually got something in return for those picks unlike Pagan. Couldn't even trade into the first 2 rounds IIRC.

It should also be remembered that 12 of our last starting 22, currently 2nd on the ladder, were recruited under Pagan so i would argue he left a solid nucleus for Laidley to build on. Pagan was left with nothing.

Amen.

 

[Long bombs to snake]

Woodson, how did your financially poor Steelers achieve all their years of success year after year of constantly losing their stars to Free agency. Your drafting has been superb, and a good recruiting team is worth its weight in gold (pardon the pun).

I know this was addressed to Woodson but as a mad Steelers fan i believe i can help answer that question. The key to the Steelers is stability and principals. They are going into camp with only their 3rd coach in 39 years! They pick the right guy and stick with him (something some AFL clubs should look at) through winning and losing. They never get held to ransom by players, if he wants more than the club can afford then he walks. They don't pay above market price. They don't chase high profile, uncontracted players, especially those with questionable characters. The have a philosophy that dates back 30 - 40 years and hasn't changes and if you don't buy into it, then you are not a Steelers person.

 

[windsock]

I'm comparing a coach who had his hands tied for 2 years (Pagan) to one who didn't (Laidley), experience means squat. Plenty of coaches with little experience have been successful. Whilst i also acknowledge that Laidley traded away 2 years of picks, it must be remembered that we actually got something in return for those picks unlike Pagan. Couldn't even trade into the first 2 rounds IIRC..

Laidley didn't have his hands tied? No rookies in one season, told (after he was appointed) that he had to trade his highest paid (and probably best) player and unable to pay much more than the base 92.5 per cent of the cap. That's for starters.

And those picks that Carlton were stripped of have been over played. In his first year they traded their second pick for Barnaby French (that was before the penalties were handed down) and in the next year they got a priroity pick. So compared with North, they had one less first rounder and one less second rounder over those two years. Add to that the fact they got access to probably the best credentialled pre-season pick in the past decade by way of their bottom placing and I'd say they haven't been as badly done by as he keeps saying.

It should also be remembered that 12 of our last starting 22, currently 2nd on the ladder, were recruited under Pagan so i would argue he left a solid nucleus for Laidley to build on. Pagan was left with nothing.

That may be so but it's one thing to bring them into the club, it's another to develop them. Of the 12 from last weekend, how many had played any more than 50 games when Dean arrived? I'd say Simmo, Boomer, Shagga and Jess. It should be noted that there's not a key possie player among them. Dean has had to do the hard yards and build a spine because Denis din't want to do it.

If Denis had have done what he should have and either kept his young big blokes or drafted more in instead of trading away picks, we may not have had to trade away picks to get Thommo and Hay to the club.

 

[RoyalBlue]

This thread just got funny with LBTS coming back for repeated ownings after completely missing the fact that every player listed by NorthBhoy was a recycled player.

 

[giantroo]

I'm comparing a coach who had his hands tied for 2 years (Pagan) to one who didn't (Laidley), experience means squat. Plenty of coaches with little experience have been successful. Whilst i also acknowledge that Laidley traded away 2 years of picks, it must be remembered that we actually got something in return for those picks unlike Pagan. Couldn't even trade into the first 2 rounds IIRC.

It should also be remembered that 12 of our last starting 22, currently 2nd on the ladder, were recruited under Pagan so i would argue he left a solid nucleus for Laidley to build on. Pagan was left with nothing.

Pagan had the chance to rebuild our team but left us in a coffin to rebuild an absolute dump. He had the chance to rebuild our team but decided to take the harder route and because of his stupidity/greediness he has now a former coach.

 

[Long bombs to snake]

Laidley didn't have his hands tied? No rookies in one season,.

Can't compare not participating in 1 rookie draft to missing out on 2 National drafts

told (after he was appointed) that he had to trade his highest paid (and probably best) player

Are you talking about Carey? I'm sure he resigned on the eve of the 2002 season so Laidley would certainly have known this

and unable to pay much more than the base 92.5 per cent of the cap. That's for starters
Kudos to Dean there.

And those picks that Carlton were stripped of have been over played

Disagree massively there. Missing out on Goddard, Wells and i think it was Cooney (especially when added to a midfield of Nick Stevens, Scotland and Murphy) was a huge hit and to think otherwise would be ignorant.

That may be so but it's one thing to bring them into the club, it's another to develop them. Of the 12 from last weekend, how many had played any more than 50 games when Dean arrived? I'd say Simmo, Boomer, Shagga and Jess

Pretty hard to develop them when you only have had them for 1 - 2 years.

It should be noted that there's not a key possie player among them

Hale, Petrie, Watt. Rocca was pretty handy there for a few years as well.

If Denis had have done what he should have and either kept his young big blokes or drafted more in instead of trading away picks, we may not have had to trade away picks to get Thommo and Hay to the club

Denis never traded young big blokes and drafted plenty who never kicked on. It should also be noted that Dean has drafted young big blokes who also have not kicked on (Shore, Perry, Chad Jones). Had to trade to get Thompson & Brown. This not a knock on Dean just the reality that drafting is a difficult science to master.

 

[Long bombs to snake]

This thread just got funny with LBTS coming back for repeated ownings after completely missing the fact that every player listed by NorthBhoy was a recycled player.

Maybe you should get your facts right son. I'm pretty sure that without going into every players history that of the top of my head that at least Bryan, Deluca and Kenna weren't reclycled. And even Jack the Blind Miner would know that McKernan, who was on that same list, was actually traded to Carlton by Pagan who then traded him back to Laidley.

 

[Long bombs to snake]

Pagan had the chance to rebuild our team but left us in a coffin to rebuild an absolute dump. He had the chance to rebuild our team but decided to take the harder route and because of his stupidity/greediness he has now a former coach.

Again disagree. Leaving behind 12 of our current 22, who are currently 2nd, 5 years after he has gone is hardly leaving us in a coffin in my opinion.

 

[windsock]

Can't compare not participating in 1 rookie draft to missing out on 2 National drafts

Certainly can't but to say Dean didn't have his hands tied is sheer folly

Are you talking about Carey? I'm sure he resigned on the eve of the 2002 season so Laidley would certainly have known this.

Byron Pickett.

Disagree massively there. Missing out on Goddard, Wells and i think it was Cooney (especially when added to a midfield of Nick Stevens, Scotland and Murphy) was a huge hit and to think otherwise would be ignorant.

I was comparing the number of draft picks in the top couple of rounds we had to what Carlton did. The post to which I was responding talked about what Laidley had at North to what Pagan had at Carlton. Yep, he missed out on the first two picks of the draft, but in the cold hard light of day, we only had one more first rounder and one more second rounder than Carlton over the same period. Is that enough to explain where our two clubs are at five years after he left?

Pretty hard to develop them when you only have had them for 1 - 2 years.

My point exactly. Let someone else do it.

Hale, Petrie, Watt. Rocca was pretty handy there for a few years as well.

Hale hadn't debuted when Dean arrived, Drew had played about 10 games and Denis refused to put any time into Shannon Watt as a senior player. Again, that's my point.

And yep, Rocca was handy (another tall Denis didn't have to develop, by the way). And we are lucky he was there because after just three years he was the only key possie player/ruckmen who was already established in senior footy by the time Denis bolted that was still left at the club.

Denis never traded young big blokes and drafted plenty who never kicked on. It should also be noted that Dean has drafted young big blokes who also have not kicked on (Shore, Perry, Chad Jones). Had to trade to get Thompson & Brown. This not a knock on Dean just the reality that drafting is a difficult science to master.

Cameron Mooney. Kent Kingsley kicked over 40 goals a few times and would have been handy in a rebuilding side. We traded Scott Welsh (which we had no control over admittedly) and rather than trying to find another player to fill his place, we traded away that pick, plus our first three rounders plus Cam Mooney for one player.

It should also be noted that Dean has drafted young big blokes who also have not kicked on (Shore, Perry, Chad Jones). Had to trade to get Thompson & Brown.

Why did Dean have to trade for Brown, Thompson and Hay? Maybe his predecessor didn't plan well enough for the future because he knew he wasn't going to be there.

This not a knock on Dean just the reality that drafting is a difficult science to master.

I agree - it's why we should have kept going to the draft table to sift through these kids to get a couple of good ones rather than trading our picks away for Colby (who was a good player but cost PLENTY) and blokes who were never going to be anything other than battlers like Calthorpe, Olarenshaw, McLaren and Porter.

 

[giantroo]

Again disagree. Leaving behind 12 of our current 22, who are currently 2nd, 5 years after he has gone is hardly leaving us in a coffin in my opinion.

Ok, Carey leaving us had an impact on us, then pagan leaving us after that made it even worse. Not to forget the amount of old players were there and the amount of dump we had was shocking. From then Laidley had to start removing players, and players started retiring (stevens,king,martyn,colbert,sav,sholl,longmire).

Also, the effects of the media was also taking an effect on the club which isn't easy to fix.

That is definately leaving us in the coffin. We also had to get our old champion of Allen Aylett to take the CEO chair and from then on started to rebuild.

 

[The Teflon Dean]

John Elliott in "It wasn't my fault" mode......

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,22123413%5E19742,00.html


Former Carlton president John Elliott, who was responsible for luring Pagan from the Kangaroos, had little pity for the dual premiership coach.

"He had to go and it was inevitable," Elliott said. "Denis never really embraced Carlton and he'd lost the players.

"The group wasn't playing for him and that became painfully obvious on Sunday. It is definitely the right decision."

Elliott, who yesterday denied hiring Pagan for political reasons in 2003, has already endorsed Michael Voss as Pagan's long-term replacement.

He makes me sick.

If you locked him in a room with a bunch of rats, the rats would leave in disgust.

A 100% all round, spineless, despicable person.