It's Official Pagan Sacked

[The Teflon Dean]

The list I put up weren't kids they made recruiting calls on. They were recycled or VFL hacks. Pagan took the soft option so many times and is rightfully canned for it.

I'm still to be convinced that he wasn't a North Melbourne mole sent to destroy Carlton from the inside.

Those lists are not encompassing of some of the limitations Denis had to deal with.

What else was he supposed to do with picks 68, 73, 75, 80, 81 & 82?

Some people also seem to conveniently forget that Denis drafted: Simpson, Harvey, Petrie, Grant & Jones. These are 5 of our best 10 players.

Let's not even mention his persistence in snaring us the Shinboner of the Century.

Are there people out there that actually believe that the man that hand built 9 straight under19 premiership sides has an inferior understanding of junior footballers than Dean Laidley?

I, for one, hope the club move quickly to regain his services in some capacity.

 

[The Teflon Dean]

I'm comparing a coach who had his hands tied for 2 years (Pagan) to one who didn't (Laidley), experience means squat. Plenty of coaches with little experience have been successful. Whilst i also acknowledge that Laidley traded away 2 years of picks, it must be remembered that we actually got something in return for those picks unlike Pagan. Couldn't even trade into the first 2 rounds IIRC.

It should also be remembered that 12 of our last starting 22, currently 2nd on the ladder, were recruited under Pagan so i would argue he left a solid nucleus for Laidley to build on. Pagan was left with nothing.

3 cheers.

 

[Long bombs to snake]

Ok, Carey leaving us had an impact on us, then pagan leaving us after that made it even worse. Not to forget the amount of old players were there and the amount of dump we had was shocking. From then Laidley had to start removing players, and players started retiring (stevens,king,martyn,colbert,sav,sholl,longmire).

Not sure what you wanted Pagan to do here. Get rid of loyal servants to the club? (We are not Hawthorn) Most of those guys played between 1 - 3 more years under Laidley and i believe served him well.

Also, the effects of the media was also taking an effect on the club which isn't easy to fix.

Not Pagan's fault.

That is definately leaving us in the coffin. We also had to get our old champion of Allen Aylett to take the CEO chair and from then on started to rebuild.

Again not Pagan's fault.

 

[Long bombs to snake]

Those lists are not encompassing of some of the limitations Denis had to deal with.

What else was he supposed to do with picks 68, 73, 75, 80, 81 & 82?

Some people also seem to conveniently forget that Denis drafted: Simpson, Harvey, Petrie, Grant & Jones. These are 5 of our best 10 players.

Let's not even mention his persistence in snaring us the Shinboner of the Century.

Are there people out there that actually believe that the man that hand built 9 straight under19 premiership sides has an inferior understanding of junior footballers than Dean Laidley?

I, for one, hope the club move quickly to regain his services in some capacity.

Good to see some people getting my point. I'm not saying Pagan didn't make mistakes because he certainly did and i'm sure he would be man enough to admit he did. I just get disappointed when someone who helped drag our club from the mediocrity of the 80's into the great club it is now is not shown more respect for what he has done.

 

[SkullMurphy]

Former Carlton president John Elliott, who was responsible for luring Pagan from the Kangaroos, had little pity for the dual premiership coach.

"He had to go and it was inevitable," Elliott said. "Denis never really embraced Carlton and he'd lost the players.

"The group wasn't playing for him and that became painfully obvious on Sunday. It is definitely the right decision."

You wouldn't expect that Elliott would feel he had to defend Pagan, but that's really poor form.

Love him or hate him, Denis was all class last night. There has to be some other 'history' between these two for Elliott to spew out that comment ?

 

[The Teflon Dean]

Good to see some people getting my point. I'm not saying Pagan didn't make mistakes because he certainly did and i'm sure he would be man enough to admit he did. I just get disappointed when someone who helped drag our club from the mediocrity of the 80's into the great club it is now is not shown more respect for what he has done.

I can see where some are questioning his drafting at times, but I ask those same people to remember that Denis employs a long kicking, bang and crash, game plan that just doesn't suit most kids. Considering he had a competitive list, I see no problem with a "one for now, one for tomorrow" mentality. His picks for "tomorrow" are the cornerstone of our current team.

 

[Z_K]

Those lists are not encompassing of some of the limitations Denis had to deal with.

What else was he supposed to do with picks 68, 73, 75, 80, 81 & 82?

Kids? Blokes who weren't obviously shit?

Some people also seem to conveniently forget that Denis drafted: Simpson, Harvey, Petrie, Grant & Jones. These are 5 of our best 10 players.

Probably important we talk about a recruiting team, here. Peter Jonas told Neville Stibbard to select Corey Jones, for a start. I work on the theory, possibly wrongly, that the coach ticks off the traded players and the recruting guys do the hard yards on the drafted teenagers.

Let's not even mention his persistence in snaring us the Shinboner of the Century.

Not sure what that achieves.

Are there people out there that actually believe that the man that hand built 9 straight under19 premiership sides has an inferior understanding of junior footballers than Dean Laidley?

What has that got to do with anything?

Denis Pagan's efforts at Carlton were the discussion points. What he did at North will always be respected and admired. Good for him. He deserves it. He set records at Carlton. Very, very bad records. He will be rememberd for that, too.

I, for one, hope the club move quickly to regain his services in some capacity

If the senior coach and he were on the same page and he had no inclination to be the main man, I'm sure we could find a job for him. But given the person he is, I'm not sure that is possible.

 

[windsock]

Some people also seem to conveniently forget that Denis drafted: Simpson, Harvey, Petrie, Grant & Jones. These are 5 of our best 10 players.

We traded for Grant. He'd played 60 games for the Swans by the time he was 21.

Petrie and Jones - again, we drafted them when Denis was here, but the hard work in getting them up and running was done by someone else.

I will also add that it was Neville Stibbard who drafted four of the five blokes you mentioned. Can draft

His record during the 1990s can't be questioned. His dedication to the club, which was teetering on the brink after Carey left due to it's young and developing list, can be. Not much of the Shinboner in Denis when he was eyeing off 'going home' in the latter stages of his career when things were looking like they were going to get a bit hard.

I suppose those priority picks looked good at the time...

 

[Shinboners]

You wouldn't expect that Elliott would feel he had to defend Pagan, but that's really poor form.

Love him or hate him, Denis was all class last night. There has to be some other 'history' between these two for Elliott to spew out that comment ?

Nope. I'd say there's very little history between Elliott and Pagan.

It's just Elliott shifting the blame away from himself. No more, no less.

 

[Pres]

I seriously hope that all these so called "North" fans who are dancing on Dennis' grave can remember back to 1993. At the start of that year we were every bit at our "lowest point" as we were at the end of 2002.

We had just been beaten by 147 points, were coming off a shocking year in 1992, had staggeringly low support and were heading into the season without a major sponsor.

Dennis not only rebuilt the players confidence and took them to the top of the ladder for 14 weeks (and into the finals for 8 years straight) but single handedly teed up a major sponsorship for the club with his old employer (NZI). I struggle to find a precedent for this.

Very short memories a lot of people. The disrespect is apalling IMO.

 

[Z_K]

I seriously hope that all these so called "North" fans who are dancing on Dennis' grave can remember back to 1993

If dancing on his grave means not feeling a bit sorry for him, that's me. And don't call me less of a fan because of it, for christs sake. I was/am bitter because him leaving for Carlton ****ing killed me. Absolutely gutted me.

At the start of that year we were every bit at our "lowest point" as we were at the end of 2002.

Debatable, but not really the point.

We had just been beaten by 147 points, were coming off a shocking year in 1992, had staggeringly low support and were heading into the season without a major sponsor.

Yes, and what did from there is something to be admired. His record at North is not really arguable as a whole product. Bits and pieces can be thrown up as positives and negatives, but when you win two flags and make 7 prelims, the rest matters little.

Dennis not only rebuilt the players confidence and took them to the top of the ladder for 14 weeks (and into the finals for 8 years straight) but single handedly teed up a major sponsorship for the club with his old employer (NZI).

I think he was the perfect man for the perfect group. He was a hard bastard who coached hard bastards. He walked into a list when a bunch of future club legends were about to explode and his ability to assist them to do this was his strength. He had the best player to ever play the game up one end and fashioned a system that used this.

Very short memories a lot of people. The disrespect is apalling IMO

Maybe it is disrespectful, but I couldn't care less. Why he went to Carlton and what he did there doesn't effect my viewing of his time at North. But as a bloke, as a North Melbourne person, jumping at the end of 2002, given the clubs predicament, given his reasons for leaving and the fact that is was into the arms of ****ing John Elliott and at ****ing Carlton (Carlton!!), I'll continue to see his leaving for what it was.

 

[windsock]

I seriously hope that all these so called "North" fans who are dancing on Dennis' grave can remember back to 1993. At the start of that year we were every bit at our "lowest point" as we were at the end of 2002.

We had just been beaten by 147 points, were coming off a shocking year in 1992, had staggeringly low support and were heading into the season without a major sponsor.

Dennis not only rebuilt the players confidence and took them to the top of the ladder for 14 weeks (and into the finals for 8 years straight) but single handedly teed up a major sponsorship for the club with his old employer (NZI). I struggle to find a precedent for this.

Very short memories a lot of people. The disrespect is apalling IMO.

Isn't it ironic that you are bagging North supporters who are rapt with Denis' downfall given that the reason we are dirty on him is his departure was very 'un-North Melbourne-like' in so many ways.

Mate you are entitled to hold whatever opinion you like of the man, but to question my right to call myself a North supporter because of my opinion is downright rude.

 

[Woodson]

Nope. I'd say there's very little history between Elliott and Pagan.

It's just Elliott shifting the blame away from himself. No more, no less.

The smart Carlton fan will point the finger at John Elliott. I agree Shinners, the way they have bought this upon themselves is shameful...especially if they are game to become competitive now that Denis has left the building. I hope the Tiges somehow find 3 miracle wins... another spoon is warranted for the Blue baggers with thier TANKING mentality.

 

[KangaBot]

If dancing on his grave means not feeling a bit sorry for him, that's me. And don't call me less of a fan because of it, for christs sake. I was/am bitter because him leaving for Carlton ****ing killed me. Absolutely gutted me.



Debatable, but not really the point.



Yes, and what did from there is something to be admired. His record at North is not really arguable as a whole product. Bits and pieces can be thrown up as positives and negatives, but when you win two flags and make 7 prelims, the rest matters little.



I think he was the perfect man for the perfect group. He was a hard bastard who coached hard bastards. He walked into a list when a bunch of future club legends were about to explode and his ability to assist them to do this was his strength. He had the best player to ever play the game up one end and fashioned a system that used this.



Maybe it is disrespectful, but I couldn't care less. Why he went to Carlton and what he did there doesn't effect my viewing of his time at North. But as a bloke, as a North Melbourne person, jumping at the end of 2002, given the clubs predicament, given his reasons for leaving and the fact that is was into the arms of ****ing John Elliott and at ****ing Carlton (Carlton!!), I'll continue to see his leaving for what it was.

NB....that was brilliantly put! 'nuff said!

 

[shinboner magic]

Lets see how happy the crapton fans are when they still get belted next season and leave pagan alone he has copped his fair whack and he has suffered all the way to the bank.
He did well for us and it was probably time he went anyway,so good on him for stuffing up the blues,i love it personally.
Carltons the most successful team in the last few seasons 2 spoons and 2 preseason cups= nothing but joy for all other fans.

 

[Gasometer]

I found it disappointing that on the Sunday we were being belted by Melbourne in that final and by the Wednesday he was G.O.N.E....it just seemed out of character for someone who in the last year and a half of his time with us ranted on about the Shinboner Spirit...and did the opposite.

But in the end, who cares now. He has my respect as a person and as a coach who delivered the best roller coaster of my football life during the 90's that I will never forget for as long as I live. It was just a great experience to have gone week in and week out to see those teams 93-99. Good on ya Angry Budgie and we hope to see you floating around the games over the next few months.

Gasometer

 

[Woodson]

I found it disappointing that on the Sunday we were being belted by Melbourne in that final and by the Wednesday he was G.O.N.E....it just seemed out of character for someone who in the last year and a half of his time with us ranted on about the Shinboner Spirit...and did the opposite.

But in the end, who cares now. He has my respect as a person and as a coach who delivered the best roller coaster of my football life during the 90's that I will never forget for as long as I live. It was just a great experience to have gone week in and week out to see those teams 93-99. Good on ya Angry Budgie and we hope to see you floating around the games over the next few months.

Gasometer

here here Gaso....I'm pretty sure we all had that 'blood boiling' experience you mention.... the GOOD STUFF he gave us outweighs the BAD. Life goes on.