Traded Jake Carlisle [traded w/ #23 and #44 for #5, #24 and Craig Bird]

[mattrobbo26]

The deal that St Kilda offered was not a fair one. When it boils down to it that deal is essentially Pick 8 and Carlisle for Pick 5 (I say Pick 8 because the Saints would send Picks 23 and 25 to GWS for Pick 8, which is what the Bombers are planning on doing currently).

So you can't tell me when and where Carlisle and his management publicly stated the PSD wasn't an option? I can post a link to a statement that shows Carlisle and his management think that the offer put forward is a fair one.

 

[nickh32]

If Carlisle goes to PSD it'll be with a one year contract at $1.5 mill. That way he's assured of getting to Saints.

Think all draft contracts have to be at least 2 years.

Edit: how would you then pay freeman and other draftees that you bring in. Freeman contract is about 300k i think was reported figure.

 

[Defacto]

They are very interested numbnuts, they were trying to lure him via the PSD but he said no he wanted to secure a fair deal for the Bombers. The amount of factually inaccurate drivel you spout is astonishing, I can see why so many people have you on the ignore list.

Why pull out at the offer stage then hey?

Got a quote from carlton stating they only want him in the PSD?

 

[Daniel Bradford]

If Carlton aren't meeting his wage demands - then how would they secure him in the PSD?

Point being he won't go to the PSD and risk going to Carlton, assuming that now there is not a draft pick associated with that move, come up to his wage demands. Or the fact that Brisbane and GC are also licking their lips before Saints. You could be 99% certain, unless you're as silly Saints supporter that he will choose Hawks when push comes to shove. Isn't the rumour going around that Jake is becoming stressed about going into the PSD?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Players have the right to choose between PSD and ND

They normally nominate the PSD as they put a $ figure on their head to scare off clubs they dont want to go to

Clubs are also reluctant to be 1 sort on their senior list on the off chance they get their player in the PSD

Pretty sure that recycled players are also able to put a price on their head in the nd now too.

 

[mattrobbo26]

Think all draft contracts have to be at least 2 years.

Edit: how would you then pay freeman and other draftees that you bring in. Freeman contract is about 300k i think was reported figure.

Don't pay as much in the first year where we're paying more for Carlisle.

 

[Defacto]

Is there a chance the bombers would simply say, we'll meet your wage demands and pick you in the PSD if saints really started pushing for this option? I know this wouldn't be great for the bombers but it is something that they could put in front of StK if they keep low balling in the hope they wouldn't have to give up anything. Not saying this would happen, just wonder if it's something that can possibly be done.

No chance

 

[Defacto]

Think all draft contracts have to be at least 2 years.

Edit: how would you then pay freeman and other draftees that you bring in. Freeman contract is about 300k i think was reported figure.

So we set it at 3m

 

[Josh McElgunn]

I agree. While the players should have some say in where they want to go, it shouldn't be taken as gospel. Otherwise the"big clubs" will have players lining up to play with them and the clubs like brissy,gws would be severely weakened. All players are employees of the AFL at the end of the day. If want to play in the AFL you have to be ready to play for any club in the league. The alternative is to get a job in the real world. I agree with the unrestricted free agency comment as well, if they have put in years at a club and want to leave then they should be able to but in circumstances like aish from brissy, I'd say its a case of tough cookies. He has been in the league for two years and hasn't earnt the right to pick and choose where he wants to play. He should be happy that he is playing in the highest possible league and being paid handsomely for it. Otherwise leave the league and go to uni or get another job. In saying this i think clubs should be able to deny requests and not be seen as "cold hearted a***holes". Brisbane have lost a ridiculous amount of talent because of this and now would be very sceptical on drafting any interstate player as they know they could lose them in 2 years and be forever a weak club as the top end talent they do draft will be gone quickly,placing them in a hole where they are never going to get better.

It was brought up before that these sentiments were too 'club orientated' and not considerate of player welfare. I don't know when the shift occurred but I reckon it should be about the clubs first. Players come and go, clubs shouldn't. Clubs should be able to do whatever they need to to ensure their long term prosperity and survival. The league needs GWS, Brisbane and the like to do well. Player welfare surrounding moving clubs is only an issue if clubs cave You look at how a lot of American franchises trade players like cattle (mid season too) and our sporting community thinks that's rough but it's not if the players understand they are a commodity in demand. They're fine with it. They go where they are sent to and make a go of it.

Fair enough.
I'll agree to disagree on the at one.

May the Dons fans have more to cheer about in 2016 after a tough few years.

Cheers, but it could get worse yet. My overall hope is that Carlisle gets to St Kilda, I reckon a spine with Riewoldt, McCartin and him in it would be good to see over the next 2 years before Roo retires. Ultimately, I think the deal will play out Ess trading Carlise, pick 25 and pick 38 (I think thats the Giles to WC pick) for pick 5 and 63.

 

[Defacto]

Don't pay as much in the first year where we're paying more for Carlisle.

Theres also the small matter of 600k plus in veterans space we havent used

 

[nickh32]

Don't pay as much in the first year where we're paying more for Carlisle.

And other draftees? Thats also assuming freenan agrees be paid less in first year. Also assuming other players allow you to pat them less next year so it fits.
Again i beleieve it has to be at least a 2 year deal. So will it be 1.5 over 2 years or what.

Overpaying is playing a very dangerous game.

 

[Josh McElgunn]

What will they bait their breath with? Craven Special Mild?

Thats pretty good actually. I havent seen cravens since I was a kid!

 

[stfan]

3. The Saints may have no problem with the PSD, but if you removed your blinkers for one-hundredth of a second and been listening at all you'd know that Carlisle and his manager have said that the PSD is not an option for them.

Get your facts straight for crying out loud.

Boy are you behind the times. Did you have a black out on Friday???

Carlisle and is manager came out on Friday and made it crystal clear that he wants to be at the Saints, that if the Saints offereda a "fair deal" that the Hawks are not an option and that if necessary Carlisle will go to the PSD.

Carlisle's Manager has also now stated hat the deal St Kilda put to Essendon is "fair" in their view.

Dodo has cleary pissed off Carlisle and his Manager bigtime with his attempted underhand deal with the Hawks without consulting the Carlisle Camp. BIG MISTAKE!!! Made worse by publically staing that he would now only deal with the Hawks. What type of moron does that with an OOC player? The way the Hawks have quickly back-peddled too makes it pretty obvious that they wrongly believed what Dodo told them.

Dons have two options. Take the fair deal(maybe with some tweaking), or take nothing. Carlisle is OOC and "has left the building".

 

[aussierulesrules]

Point being he won't go to the PSD and risk going to Carlton, assuming that now there is not a draft pick associated with that move, come up to his wage demands. Or the fact that Brisbane and GC are also licking their lips before Saints

See my post just up the page on this very thing. Do you really think either Brisbane or Gold Coast would risk picking him up under those circumstances and how would Carlton fit him into next year's salary cap when it was bursting at the seams this year and they're about to add half of GWS's list, which will offset a chunk of the departing contracts?

 

[Daniel Bradford]

5 for Carlisle+23 is reasonable.
5 for Carlise + 35 is stupid.

Using the points system to somehow conclude Carlisle is worth 40 is stupid. It's like using a Wagyu beef tenderness scale to grade tofu.

Think 5 for Carlise+23 is still slanted in Essendon's favour (and yes, I am very biased) - primarily because the quality for this draft is stated to be at the top end only. In this draft, it would be better for Essendon to have five than Hawthorn's picks.

We were thinking about taking 4 and 7 for pick 1 last year, having picks 4 and 5 would be a brilliant outcome for Essendon.

This is for a player that is definitely behind Hooker and Hurley.

I'd like to congratulate you for being the first STKFC supporter in the last few days of following this thread to

a) Admit they are biased
b) use reasonable logic in considering what is/isn't fair trade

The only thing i disagree with you on is that Carlisle and 23 is slanted towards Essendon due to the weak draft. I agree the draft may be weaker than usual but IMO a draft pick i a draft pick and its not relevant to the depth of a draft when considering a trade options. But thats just mu opinion. I tip my hat to you sir, well played.

 

[nickh32]

So we set it at 3m

Then no chance of Weller or JOM like your precious brian alluded to you chasing and lead to half your board touching themselves.

 

[Pinpoint Pass]

We have possibly more cap space free than any other club in the comp, so we could front-end his contract so much that it would price every other club with a pick ahead of us out of the equation.

On top of that, he most likely wouldn't do any interviews or medicals at any of those 3 clubs, which would mean that they'd be risking as much as $2mil in one year on someone sight-unseen. Someone who Mark (I might as well be on Essendon's payroll) Robinson said the other day has had attitude issues going back years and who he and Ando insinuated today doesn't have the work ethic that someone like BJ Goddard thinks is acceptable. Would Gold Coast (who have just gotten rid of a couple with "attitude type issues") take the punt on him, without having interviewed him at that sort of price?

At the end of that first year, where they've paid him as much as $2mil, what do they do then? How much do they offer him on his next contract, if he's even willing to stay? Carlton weren't willing to pay him more than $500k for 4 years, so do you really think they'd be willing to pay him that full amount over just 1?

Brisbane is probably the only club ahead of us that might have the cap space free to be able to afford a monster contract in next year's cap, but do they really want anyone else there that doesn't want to be there and who may ask to be traded out after one year, a year where they paid him $2mil?

I hope it doesn't go that far and that a deal that both parties are happy with gets done (which I belivee means Essendon will need to actually work with us here, not against us), but I reckon it would have been discussed at length on Friday, so I certainly wouldn't discount us landing him there, just like Collingwood landed Ball in the ND in 2009.

I don't discount him getting to the Saints via the PSD but i don't buy the claims by many that he gets there without doubt.

I don't see how Carlton or Brisbane could have much if any less Salary cap room than you and so far all Carlton seem to be losing will be senior players, JUdd, Henderson, Bell etc and bringing in who?, probably kids.

Medicals are provided by club doctors and as i said yesterday hawthorn were prepared to take him while he is overseas without a Medical, because Essendon will give them all his testing.

Can a player put a 1 year contract on their heads? I thought minimum was 2 but not sure on that.

Another thing to consider is that for 3 years running we have had good players leave our club. In some instances it was our fault but that is about to end one way or the other soon so now is time to make a stand to the managers that think they can just take a player, contracted or not and walk to their destination.

Saints cough up a fair deal, we try to get him to Hawthorn if not and failing both of those delist the campaigner and send a message that will help us in the future.

If the PSD ends up the case then hopefully he goes to Brisbane so the message is even clearer.

 

[Daniel Bradford]

See my post just up the page on this very thing. Do you really think either Brisbane or Gold Coast would risk picking him up under those circumstances and how would Carlton fit him into next year's salary cap when it was bursting at the seams this year and they're about to add half of GWS's list, which will offset much of the contracts that have departed?

Either of those clubs pick him up for free and then trade him for a first round pick next year if he still wants out. What a great way to get yourself a free pick. Just dont expect to get a reasonable trade from Saints

 

[aussierulesrules]

I agree the draft may be weaker than usual but IMO a draft pick is a draft pick and its not relevant to the depth of a draft when considering a trade options.

That's like saying that a house just keeps its same value all the time and doesn't go up or down depending on what the housing market is doing!

 

[gillo94]

No way he goes in the PSD. He will go to Hawthorn before it comes to that - too big a risk.

That said I expect a trade with the Saints will be worked out

Both teams are miles apart. Would be good if a player was involved from StK

 

[Scotland]

Saints fans are clueless. The points system was introduced to try and quantitatively value draft picks.

1 is better than 2 which is better than 3 etc. and the value diminishes down the line. It's not a linear scale.

It's just a guide, but when it spits out that you value a player worth a pick in the 40s for a player you're offering $600k+ then it's pretty obvious that something isn't right.

A simple question for Saints/Bombers fans is what is Carlisle worth in a simple exchange for one draft pick? 5? 10? 20? 120?

 

[Daniel Bradford]

Haha well if Brian says so!! ******* lol

**** brian

 

[Defacto]

Then no chance of Weller or JOM like your precious brian alluded to you chasing and lead to half your board touching themselves.

Why would that affect us getting weller or JOM?

 

[Defacto]

Saints fans are clueless. The points system was introduced to try and quantitatively value draft picks.

1 is better than 2 which is better than 3 etc. and the value diminishes down the line. It's not a linear scale.

It's just a guide, but when it spits out that you value a player worth a pick in the 40s for a player you're offering $600k+ then it's pretty obvious that something isn't right.

A simple question for Saints/Bombers fans is what is Carlisle worth in a simple exchange for one draft pick? 5? 10? 20? 120?

Ok then what would you like. Pick 5 or 2nd and 3rd rounders to the value of pick 5

 

[Daniel Bradford]

Theres also the small matter of 600k plus in veterans space we havent used

The fact that your talking about digging into the salary cap even further suggests STKFC values him higher than any rubbish trade proposal thus far