Jared Petrenko

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Vader said:
OK.. let's disregard my previous call about him being lazy. I agree that this is a very un-Petrenko characteristic.

Right now I'm wondering if it's fairer to say that he has become too defensive minded, to the detriment of his offensive performance? Is this a fair description of where he's at?

Looking at his performances in the MMC and R1, his offensive output (disposals) is down by roughly 30% on what he was achieving last year. I didn't rate him particularly highly last year, but that's neither here nor there. At least it gives us a decent benchmark for purposes of comparison.

I believe looking at his performance this way is not out of line with the Rooke comparisons.. is it?

BTW.. please stop trying to compare him to the likes of Betts, Garlett & LeCras. Petrenko isn't fit to stand in their shadows right now and I sincerely doubt that he ever will be. These guys score goals week in week out. Petrenko does not.

Even if we accept that he's been given a fairly defensive role, which I think is probably a given, I still expect him to make more of a contribution offensively. My comparisons with Rob Shirley & warnings about his fate remain entirely valid.

I'm still yet to hear a good excuse for why so many of his disposals came in the final quarter and so few when the heat was on in the kitchen. I don't buy the "still gives it all when he's exhausted" line. That might explain why he continued to get disposals in the last quarter, it doesn't even come close to excusing his lack of them in the first half of the game.
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Isn't it possible that when the heat was on that he was focused almost entirely on his defensive elements and once the game was iced he was allowed more freedom to be offensive? I don't know for sure but if his disposal went up and his tackles went down in the second half could this not be a fair conclusion?

Yes he needs to be more offensive but as long a he is hitting his defensive benchmarks then he should be allowed to try and improve that in game. The other issue is if he focuses too much in this then there could be calls to send him back to the sanfl for not keeping his opponent boundary side.
 
I'm with Ruscy but Vader I think the issue is you're being too close minded.

I would suggest there weren't as many opportunities for disposals earlier in the game.

Tips was dominating and kicking it through the goals or points nearly every time it went forward.
Tex started to take over and kicked it over everyone's head.

You're view of Rob Shirely is largely irrelevant as we have a new coach with a new gameplan who is asking him, by your own admission, to play a different type of role.

Again, go and compare him to Max Rooke at his most importance to the Geelong sides of 08/09. His performances in the pre-season and rd 1 stack up favourably. Yes I'm making an assumption this is the type of role he is being asked to play. IMO its a far safer assumption than some of the ones you are making with respect to the context for the Shirley comments being the same as the context for Jared. (especially when you consider Rob was an on-baller vs Jared as an impact/defensive forward).

If you look at goals contributed - he had 3 on the weekend. This is a key stat for me for a small forward in a forwardline full of targets to kick goals (we have 3 in Porps,Tex,Tips who can all hit the 50 goal mark this year depending on how it is shared around) and with a very experienced, smart and skillful crumber in Callinan in the side as well. If he maintains a 3goals a match contribution he would sit equal 11th in the comp from last years stats (level with Cyril).

He has pace, aggression, agility, strong body and a touch of the mercurial in his skillset to offer.

Let's revisit after the next 2 games as I think we'll have a better feel for his role by then and how he is playing it. (esp vs the Hawks imo)
 

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Peter J said:
Been following this thread today and geez...vitriolic or what?

I wll try and play the ball and answer the OP.

I think there is a role for Pets within our new gameplan, although I suspect the opportunity for him to impact the midfield may have passed him with the imporvement of others.

With the way the game is evolving and the want to play the game in your attacking 50, the ability to hold the ball in and avoid the quick get out whic exposes defence, has become paramount.

Pets has all the tools to be a designated defending attacker, and yes it is important to assign a role player in this mould IMO. He is fast, aggressive, courageous and makes a contest.

So our optimal game is quick movement to an open forward zone with the likes of Nutter to clean up the scraps from the towers. Pets is the guy to follow in the forward 50 and be there to cause whatever havoc he can but more importantly to be a defender and slow the run out.

Stats are still important but he should be measured on tackles, constested ball, I50's (where he is responsible for getting it back in as they try and get out) score assists, pressure acts. These are more important than kicks or handballs IMO.

Stats wont always count though. Maybe he just forces a stoppage, spoils a mark, gets his body in the way, maybe he just guards a mark very well...anything which slows the exit is his role.

He may also be assigned a tag as with Hurn or Yarran springs to mind.

Of course if he kicks a goal then well and good. I think this is his role, he must nail it though and not lose it out to someone like Matt Wright.

Convinced Vader?????;)
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Very nicely put Peter J.:thumbsu:
 
Vader said:
OK.. let's disregard my previous call about him being lazy. I agree that this is a very un-Petrenko characteristic.

Right now I'm wondering if it's fairer to say that he has become too defensive minded, to the detriment of his offensive performance? Is this a fair description of where he's at?

Looking at his performances in the MMC and R1, his offensive output (disposals) is down by roughly 30% on what he was achieving last year. I didn't rate him particularly highly last year, but that's neither here nor there. At least it gives us a decent benchmark for purposes of comparison.

He is more defensive but this appears to be his role in the side this year. Last year when he was getting 16 touches a game he spent far more time in the midfield. This year he has pretty much exclusively roamed the forward 50. Do you think that maybe the change in his offensive output and becoming more defensive minded is due to the role Sando and the coaching staff want him to play. ie play to his strengths which are chasing, tackling, pressuring busting his gut, and leaving the offensive stuff for the guys with the better offensive skills ie Callinan/Porps etc. Just a thought.

I believe looking at his performance this way is not out of line with the Rooke comparisons.. is it?

BTW.. please stop trying to compare him to the likes of Betts, Garlett & LeCras. Petrenko isn't fit to stand in their shadows right now and I sincerely doubt that he ever will be. These guys score goals week in week out. Petrenko does not.

Petrenko has not played that many games purely as a small forward so judging him on goals per game thus far in his career is pretty unfair. Once he has played a season as a small forward we can then look at his goals and goal assists per game and compare him to those guys. In any case no-one is saying he is as good as those guys. We are using them as an indication of how many posessions some of the very best small forwards in the comp get per game to show you that expecting 17-18 from Pets is hugely unrealistic. - Betts by the way did not average more than 12 touches and 1.4 goals per game until his fifth full season ie after he had played 75 AFL games and during that time he was playing exclusively as a small forward. LeCras took til his fourth season to average over 1.9 goals per game and til his 7th season to average more than 13.9 touches a game and he also was playing predominantly as a small forward. These are some of the very best small forwards in the game and they struggle to top 12-13 touches, how the hell do you expect Petrenko (who clearly is not in the same class as those guys) to get 17 touches. Others have mentioned the comparison to Max Rooke - not the most skillful player in the team but considered by many as the heart and soul of the team because of his ferocius attack on the ball and man. He never averaged more than 13 touches a game and averaged over 1 goal a game (1.1) only once.

Even if we accept that he's been given a fairly defensive role, which I think is probably a given, I still expect him to make more of a contribution offensively. My comparisons with Rob Shirley & warnings about his fate remain entirely valid.

Why Vader - when even the most offensive small forwards in the comp don't get more than 12-13 touches a game. He needs to kick more goals as a small forward, no doubt, but given we are one game in to 2012 perhaps a touch early to be judging him - he still had 3 goal assists in that game and missed a shot on goal.

I'm still yet to hear a good excuse for why so many of his disposals came in the final quarter and so few when the heat was on in the kitchen. I don't buy the "still gives it all when he's exhausted" line. That might explain why he continued to get disposals in the last quarter, it doesn't even come close to excusing his lack of them in the first half of the game.
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I'm still yet to hear a good explanation as to why you consider 17-18 touches a game as the benchmark for a young guy with less than 50 games playing as a small forward when none of the best small forwards in the comp come close to this number and most of these guys play a lot further up the ground than Pets did on the weekend. Most of us were pretty happy with the job Wright did last year and he averaged 14.3 touches and 1 goal a game.I mean I would have thought 17-18 touches might be the benchmark for a young midfielder but it took Reilly 5 season to get more than 13 touches a game and as for small defenders, Doughty only got more than 13 touches (15.2 in fact) just once in his first 6 seasons and as for Douglas (another 1st round pick midfielder)- well he took 4 seasons to top 12 posessions per game. I recall him playing as a small forward too and he averaged 0.3, 0.3, 1.0 and 0.6 goals per game in his first 4 seasons. - or do these guys escape your criticism as they are not your whipping boys. You see the club recognised their potential, stuck with them and let them develop and now they are best 22 players. Why not give Pets the same amount of latitude to develop.
 
Vader said:
I don't have time, or the inclination, to go through 2hrs of footage, looking for 13 disposals, 4 tackles and an unknown number of occasions where he was 2nd to the ball and didn't generate a stat of any description.

To be honest, I thought he was auditioning for a role in the new movie adaptation of the HG Wells novel, "The Invisible Man". I barely recall seeing his face on the screen, particularly in the first half of the game (he was far more prominent in the last 1/3 of the game as previously noted). How do you quantify laziness, if he's so far off the ball that he doesn't even appear in the picture?
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Your posting can appear to be very arrogant at times. Is this intentional or am I misreading your motives?
 
whitey_1975 said:
What do you want to hear! You are better at picking the team and know more about individual players than everyone at the AFC? You are a shit judge on footy talent, this whole rubbish you posted is a joke. Talk about pushing your own agenda. This site has become a big stinking pile of crap full of know it alls and armchair critics without a shred of experience or knowledge.:thumbsdown::rolleyes:
Not saying Pets is the complete player but he is an integral part of our team and structures. Get over it and your own self inflated ego/opinions and presumed knowledge on all things footy.
BTW why should anyone bother proving your opinions wrong. You have made your mind up and anything anyone says will be like pissing up the wall. waste of everyones time.
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This piece of writing can be attributed (within time) to every person who has posted on Big Footy about any player on any AFL list. :eek:
 
Vader said:
BTW.. please stop trying to compare him to the likes of Betts, Garlett & LeCras. Petrenko isn't fit to stand in their shadows right now and I sincerely doubt that he ever will be. These guys score goals week in week out. Petrenko does not.
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Your argument re. his so-called under-performance was based on your interpretation of the statistics from the past two matches. You also asked if it's unfair to expect 17-18 disposals from him per game. I think it is entirely appropriate to show through historical data that the leading small forwards in the comp in the leading teams do not achieve this. It is an unrealistic expectation.

Comparing Pets DE% against these players is also relevant as you have hammered him on the same point - yet his DE% actually stacks up more than well.

He has also created on average 4 goal-scoring opportunities per match over the two games you speak of... and been third at the club for tackles (highest for a Crows forward).

At no stage did I ever suggest he was on a par with these players, but you cannot dismiss valid comparative data when your own argument is statistically based just because the outcome conflicts with your analysis/perception.

Granted he hasn't converted his opportunities as we'd like... but only time can tell on that. Who suggested revisiting this thread mid-year?
 
A lot of interesting responses here guys. Many thanks.. I'm glad this thread has improved from the dross it served up yesterday.

Allefgib:
I don't buy the "less opportunities early in the game". Given that every other player managed to find opportunities early in the game, why couldn't Petrenko? For every shot that went through from 50+ there were another 5 F50 entries that Petrenko could have been involved in (but wasn't).

You guys are doing a pretty solid job of selling me on this Rooke type defensive role. I can live with that. I'm more than willing to accept that this is what Sanderson has asked him to do.

I'm still struggling to come up with an excuse for his lopsided performance, going MIA in the first half (when the game was being decided), then racking up the junk time stats in the 4th.

srv23:
I wouldn't mind so much if he only had 12-13 disposals per game, if he was scoring at 1.5+ goals per game. He's not. He never has. Including his MMC performances so far this year he has:
vs GC: 0.1 3GA
vs WC: 1.3 0GA
vs COL: 1.0 0GA
vs BL: 1.0 0GA
vs PA: 0.0 0GA
vs CARL: 0.1 1GA

So.. he's averaging 0.6 goals per game, 0.8 GA per game, 2.4 score involvements (goals + points + GA) per game. He's also batting at just 43% accuracy when kicking for goal (admittedly from a very small sample size).

** Calculations based on 5 games, noting that MMC R1 matches were effectively half-games each.

If you want to argue that he has a productive output as a small, then he either has to produce on the scoreboard, or have enough disposals to justify his position.
 
Vader said:
A lot of interesting responses here guys. Many thanks.. I'm glad this thread has improved from the dross it served up yesterday.

Allefgib:
I don't buy the "less opportunities early in the game". Given that every other player managed to find opportunities early in the game, why couldn't Petrenko? For every shot that went through from 50+ there were another 5 F50 entries that Petrenko could have been involved in (but wasn't).

You guys are doing a pretty solid job of selling me on this Rooke type defensive role. I can live with that. I'm more than willing to accept that this is what Sanderson has asked him to do.

I'm still struggling to come up with an excuse for his lopsided performance, going MIA in the first half (when the game was being decided), then racking up the junk time stats in the 4th.

srv23:Y
I wouldn't mind so much if he only had 12-13 disposals per game, if he was scoring at 1.5+ goals per game. He's not. He never has. Including his MMC performances so far this year he has:
vs GC: 0.1 3GA
vs WC: 1.3 0GA
vs COL: 1.0 0GA
vs BL: 1.0 0GA
vs PA: 0.0 0GA
vs CARL: 0.1 1GA

So.. he's averaging 0.6 goals per game, 0.8 GA per game, 2.4 score involvements (goals + points + GA) per game. He's also batting at just 43% accuracy when kicking for goal (admittedly from a very small sample size).

** Calculations based on 5 games, noting that MMC R1 matches were effectively half-games each.

If you want to argue that he has a productive output as a small, then he either has to produce on the scoreboard, or have enough disposals to justify his position.
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Footy isn't played on a calculator.
 
Vader said:
srv23:
I wouldn't mind so much if he only had 12-13 disposals per game, if he was scoring at 1.5+ goals per game. He's not. .
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I appreciate that but honestly, those are the kind of stats the elite small forwards of the comp produce - Betts, Garlett etc No-one is suggesting Pets sits in that category yet. Douglas averaged 10-12 tocuhes a game with 0.3-1.0 goals per game in hist first 4 seasons as a small forward. Matty Wright 14.3 touches and 1 goal a game last year. I think you just need to tone down your expectations of a <50 game defensive small forward.
 
King Elvis said:
Pets on Rioli when we play the Hawks?

I love Petrenko, but I think he's going to struggle to establish himself if we play him primary as a small forward.
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I thought that we could almost make this move this week. Pets into defense, one of the medium pace brigade (Otten, Doughty etc) up the ground and rework the midfield-forward rotations.
 

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It will be interesting to see how he goes this week in a tighter game in potentially slippery conditions.

I don't think he is as suited to games like on the weekend where it's fast-flowing footy with little pressure on the ball carrier. Those fast moving games tend to suit the athletic (distance running) types rather than the heavier-set players. Symes would have had >30 disposals had he played. Vince, Porps and Johncock who aren't the greatest endurance runners also had fairly quiet games but they always seem to do well in scrappier, more congested games.
 
Vader said:
I'm still struggling to come up with an excuse for his lopsided performance, going MIA in the first half (when the game was being decided), then racking up the junk time stats in the 4th.
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As I said earlier it is entirely possible he was defensive minded in the first half and offensively minded in the second based on the context of the match. Essentially more worried about his man in the first when the game was in the balance an when the contest was killed he was able to be less concerend with his lock down role an release himself to get more possies.
 
Allefgib said:
Dougie is an interesting comparison.

Here's a view of their output at a similar age. (i've focussed on Pet's last year rather than use one game of data for this year - fyi vader I think use of player data from NAB matches is probably not appropriate comparison material)

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...42&type=A&fid1=P&fopt1=2009&fid2=P&fopt2=2011

Damn similar.
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Also keep in mind that Petrenko was sub a few times last year too, Dougie's stats aren't impacted by this.
 
srv23 said:
I appreciate that but honestly, those are the kind of stats the elite small forwards of the comp produce - Betts, Garlett etc No-one is suggesting Pets sits in that category yet. Douglas averaged 10-12 tocuhes a game with 0.3-1.0 goals per game in hist first 4 seasons as a small forward. Matty Wright 14.3 touches and 1 goal a game last year. I think you just need to tone down your expectations of a <50 game defensive small forward.
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Well this is the problem, he's not going to get to 50 games so he needs to produce now!
 
King Elvis said:
Pets on Rioli when we play the Hawks?

I love Petrenko, but I think he's going to struggle to establish himself if we play him primary as a small forward.
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Petrenko to half back (no kick-ins) and Jaensch to half forward (kick a couple from 60).

Actually half back wouldn't suit him either. The Rioli idea is a good one. Just wear him like a glove.
 
CaptainDangerfield said:
Vader was a big Luke Jericho and Neil Craig fan.

THREAD CLOSED.
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I was NEVER a fan of Jericho.
Allefgib said:
Dougie is an interesting comparison.

Here's a view of their output at a similar age. (i've focussed on Pet's last year rather than use one game of data for this year - fyi vader I think use of player data from NAB matches is probably not appropriate comparison material)

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...42&type=A&fid1=P&fopt1=2009&fid2=P&fopt2=2011

Damn similar.
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I wouldn't normally use MMC figures.. but given that we're all of 1 game into the season (and his form this year has been very different to that of 2011) I thought I'd expand the sample size to something vaguely viable.

Interesting comparison between Douglas & Petrenko at the same stage. There's nothing between them statistically. Douglas was always seen as a midfielder, even when he was being developed in the forward line. Where do people see Petrenko ending up?
 
I'm not too fussed as long as he's playing in crows colours each week and still developing. He's hard at it, works his guts out and, despite a few clangers I see him as a creative and attacking ball user (I know this is not everyone's opinion). Anyways he's one of the players who I enjoy watching and I believe there's plenty of upside to come.... And his spot in the young leaders team suggests the club does too.
 
Vader said:
Interesting comparison between Douglas & Petrenko at the same stage. There's nothing between them statistically. Douglas was always seen as a midfielder, even when he was being developed in the forward line. Where do people see Petrenko ending up?
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Defender. Will eventually be a better one-on-one stopper than Stiffy, probably won't offer the same rebound and decision making though.
 
ClayMonk said:
Petrenko to half back (no kick-ins) and Jaensch to half forward (kick a couple from 60).

Actually half back wouldn't suit him either. The Rioli idea is a good one. Just wear him like a glove.
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If Jaensch is in the side, he has to be on the HBF; his ball use is incredibly good.

Pets on a HFF maybe? Dunno, the small forward position is a bitch, Callinan is our best option; if we can have Pets working around the HF line as a flanker who crumbs, might be alright?

I'm not too fussed as long as he's playing in crows colours each week and still developing. He's hard at it, works his guts out and, despite a few clangers I see him as a creative and attacking ball user (I know this is not everyone's opinion). Anyways he's one of the players who I enjoy watching and I believe there's plenty of upside to come.... And his spot in the young leaders team suggests the club does too.
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Good post mate :thumbsu:
 

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