John Winston Howard - what is his legacy?

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Todman said:
Rumour has it you hung out with some youths down at the shops when you were young. Does that make you a thug? No.
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Your ignorance of 1930s Australian fascism is the only excuse for such a dopey simile attempting to downplay the sinister reality of the people we’re talking about.

Do some reading. The really good news is that ignorance is curable.
 
SBD Gonzalez said:
Um, but Menzies said “great”.
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"great" doesn't mean "good".

Alexander and Cyrus aren't called the great because they were all sunshines and rainbows.
 

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I hate Howard with a passion; without Howard, it’s likely we would have never suffered the appalling joke of Tony Abbott PM nor Scott Morrison PM.

But I fully grasp that a sizeable cohort of the Australian populace have nothing but respect for him.

Imagine if once, just once, effing John Howard had used the prestige of his place in many people’s minds to do what Dan Andrews had the decency to do- pointedly refrain from saying anything about George Pell, and instead express empathy and compassion for the hundreds of people who suffer so horribly for his protection of pedophile priests.

But nup. This is John effing Howard.
 
SBD Gonzalez said:
I hate Howard with a passion; without Howard, it’s likely we would have never suffered the appalling joke of Tony Abbott PM nor Scott Morrison PM.

But I fully grasp that a sizeable cohort of the Australian populace have nothing but respect for him.

Imagine if once, just once, effing John Howard had used the prestige of his place in many people’s minds to do what Dan Andrews had the decency to do- pointedly refrain from saying anything about George Pell, and instead express empathy and compassion for the hundreds of people who suffer so horribly for his protection of pedophile priests.

But nup. This is John effing Howard.
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He wrote a character reference for him as a submission his sentencing - both were experts in politic…power and control and both knew how to work the system to their benefit, both oxygen thieves
 

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The Ben Roberts-Smith saga, another notch in JWH's belt. Let's be clear, it is BRS who is ultimately responsible for the things he did, but our invasion of Afghanistan and specifically the Howard government's direction toward the army and its misuse of special forces has played it's part, as Greg Sheridan says in The Australian:



It is also the case that soldiers sent on repeated deployments to Afghanistan faced mounting psychological and personal pressures, which ultimately hurt their judgment.
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There are a couple of lessons to be internalised going forward. The first is that it was insane for Australia to have a policy effectively of restricting active combat first to the SAS, and later to the SAS and Commandos. This grave policy error goes back to the Howard government and an understandable desire to avoid Australian casualties. It was thought the SAS could take care of itself. It could do the military job required and suffer minimal casualties.

The bulk of Australian Army units deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq were never allowed to go near combat if they could avoid it.

By having the perverse view that the only part of the whole Australian Defence Force it would allow into combat was the special forces, the government placed an impossible burden on this tiny tip of the spear, and also engendered great resentment among other elements of the army who rightly felt their skills and capabilities were being underrated.
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One wonders what impact the overuse of SAS had on their state of mind and thus ability to make proper judgements and do their job.
 
kickazz said:
The Ben Roberts-Smith saga, another notch in JWH's belt. Let's be clear, it is BRS who is ultimately responsible for the things he did, but our invasion of Afghanistan and specifically the Howard government's direction toward the army and its misuse of special forces has played it's part, as Greg Sheridan says in The Australian:








One wonders what impact the overuse of SAS had on their state of mind and thus ability to make proper judgements and do their job.
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I have a cousin - ex SAS without going into detail his training/ experience has made him totally unsuitable for the mainstream world
 
western royboy said:
I have a cousin - ex SAS without going into detail his training/ experience has made him totally unsuitable for the mainstream world
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Understand you not wanting to go into detail - but would you say the 'unsuitability' stems from overuse or is it just one of those jobs that is going to **** you up?
 
western royboy said:
I have a cousin - ex SAS without going into detail his training/ experience has made him totally unsuitable for the mainstream world
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Mate of mine wasn't SAS but he's Sandhurst then graduated through Northern Ireland and all the other postings you'd expect from a Brit soldier and once he left the army he was lost and ended up a mercenary. He's now living in Kenya doing his Colonel Kurtz bit near where that shopping centre siege was, which he said he quite enjoyed because going to sleep to the sound of munitions reminded him of the old days, an indication of these guy's mindset.
 
kickazz said:
Understand you not wanting to go into detail - but would you say the 'unsuitability' stems from overuse or is it just one of those jobs that is going to * you up?
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He has lost the human element - almost robotic in his view on life - zero empathy just a walking time bomb 💣- virtually no joy in his life
 
kickazz said:
One wonders what impact the overuse of SAS had on their state of mind and thus ability to make proper judgements and do their job.
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I don't believe it was overuse or fatigue, but a culture of "getting away with it" that became more ingrained in their culture each deployment.

First time around they shoot at someone in a firefight not posing a direct threat. Next time they bash a prisoner. Next time it extends to planting evidence onto a body to justify a less than legal killing. After getting away with that and getting VCs they just take the next logical step, outright murders of prisoners. Then it becomes torture (kicked off a cliff) before execution.

If their was better oversight (NCOs basically run the patrols) they could've stopped it but no one did.

I don't buy for one second the "oh they used them so much they got too tired and forgot the rules". BS
 
E Shed said:
This one could have gone in the Murdoch thread or the voice thread but I'm giving it to Howard since he stars in it.

theshot.net.au

"The poison in Australia's bloodstream" - The Shot

I carry with me the fuzzy cognitive dissonance of a white man educated in a settler colony, an old land...
theshot.net.au theshot.net.au
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The Weekend Aus this weekend:
 
schneebly111 said:
I don't believe it was overuse or fatigue, but a culture of "getting away with it" that became more ingrained in their culture each deployment.

First time around they shoot at someone in a firefight not posing a direct threat. Next time they bash a prisoner. Next time it extends to planting evidence onto a body to justify a less than legal killing. After getting away with that and getting VCs they just take the next logical step, outright murders of prisoners. Then it becomes torture (kicked off a cliff) before execution.

If their was better oversight (NCOs basically run the patrols) they could've stopped it but no one did.

I don't buy for one second the "oh they used them so much they got too tired and forgot the rules". BS
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How informed are your conclusions ?
 
Kwality said:
Mr Adams has a weekly column (opinion) fwiw. Always a good read, though we rarely agree.
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E Shed, this is probably the bit you want to read:

'Why our worst PM? We have Honest John to thank for the horrors of Hansonism, for the endless cruelty of our refugee policy – and for our involvement in the invasion of Iraq. Bob Woodward, the ultimate US insider, told me that Howard didn’t just “go along” with George W but “greatly influenced” the wavering president. As a result millions were killed, maimed or displaced. In this context Howard’s gun laws after Port Arthur don’t cut it; in any case, as Paul Keating told me at the time, no PM would have had any choice.

Add it all up, and my nomination of Howard as our worst ever PM is as defensible as his term in office wasn’t. Others have been foolish or incompetent – McMahon, Abbott, Turnbull and Morrison come to mind – but they’re bronzeand silver medallists compared to Howard’s gold.'

& the parting comment:
'So John, happy birthday to you. And, while I’m at it, to me. We’re almost 84 and counting.'

Such is the joy of opposing views.
 

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John Winston Howard - what is his legacy?

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