Justin Leppitsch - New Brisbane Lions Coach

[FuManchu]

No one is debating that the 'Legacy' was mismanaged or that things could have been better now than they were.

Try it this way - if all clubs were to start with a totally clean slate and the same salary cap etc would they indeed be equal or would the opportunities for third party deals in Vic/WA etc still make a difference?

You mentioned winter but that is a lifestyle choice like being in the 'centre of the football world' is a lifestyle choice for some.

If I can pay a player 200,000 from my salary cap and you can pay them 250,000 from you salary cap and third party deals then that player either thinks that 'winter' is worth 50,000 a year or we have to pay to match what you are offering them.

So if I have to pay 250 for someone and you only have to pay 200 for them (in terms of what is equally limited) in your mind that is fair and for us to have some extra in order to counteract that effect is 'welfare'.

There are many elements within our system that can be categorised as 'welfare' or 'socialism' in the name of 'equalisation' due to the inherent inequalities of things such as the fixture, FTA coverage, independent of one off issues / endemic but kind of self inflicted issues such as Melbourne.

So leaving aside the current events, what solution would you put in place to deal with the inherently biased playing field ... if *you* were running Brisbane what steps would you take to counteract the temptations put before the players by football-state clubs?

(Edit should have read what was posted in between - ah well maybe TBD's more succinct version will get an answer where mine might not)

You just have to face facts, it's not going to be a perfectly equal system, but I believe the things you can make equal you have too that includes money.

The AFL should not be in the business of trying to effect income earned outside of football, because legally they really don't have the right to. Once again, if a player ends up in a market where his image is potentially worth more, then so be it. It's only a select few at any club that have great commercial appeal, so the majority of the list aren't really missing out on too much in this regard. The marquee players at each clubs are looked after anyway. So it's not really a valid point. I wouldn't have thought Jonathon Brown has suffered as a result of being in Brisbane. I just saw an ad with him and cam Smith on TV last night.

The only way I see a players system could be made fair was if Melbourne was considered the base and the cost of living was factored in on Melbourne being 100 basis points and every other cities clubs were paid accordingly. So if Sydney was 21% more expensive! then the cap would be adjusted accordingly. But then Adelaide would be severely hampered.

The argument against this cost of living base is that a player in Sydney might pay more for real estate in Sydney, but if and when they sell, they stand to benefit to a greater monetary value than someone investing in Melbourne. eg: a 10% in crease on a $1mill house is greater than a 10% return on a $700k property.

My philosophy is, you make equal the things you can, that includes salary, an unfettered draft, no priority picks, no free agency picks, last gets first pick, first gets last. You give each club 11 home games. The draw should be one game each other club, the 5 return games are drawn out of a hat. If you get GWS twice because of the luck of the draw, so be it. If you get Hawthorn, so be it.

The travel factor will never be equal, but unless you can find a way of making the continent smaller, then there is nothing you can do about it. The interstate clubs joined the VFL and then the AFL on this basis. That was the time to try and address it. Melbourne is the centre of the game, but as I stated in another thread, it doesn't guarantee a Melbourne monopoly on success. There have been 11 interstate victories in 20 years. Given interstate clubs make up 8 of 18 clubs and previously 6 of 16, it's a better than fair success return for interstate clubs. Which would suggest that interstate clubs have an advantage over Melbourne clubs at times.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Yeah, so basically the inequities in the competition that benefit Collingwood are conveniently "unavoidable" but the inequities that face Brisbane are "tough t***ies".

There are valid arguments that suggest that a $10m salary cap to Collingwood is not the same as a $10m salary cap to Brisbane but you continually evade discussing those arguments. That's fine. You're free to be obtuse, but don't for a second mistake it for being objective.

 

[FuManchu]

I almost entirely reject ridiculous qualification you made there. Cost of living is an issue for people on median incomes. The average footballers earn well beyond that. When he is earning 600k a year or whatever it is, I doubt the 80-100 dollars a week Travis Cloke might save on rent up here comes close to "countering" the advantages of living in his home state and the trappings (and Footy Show contracts) that come with being in an AFL heartland.

1. Bring in an across the board retention allowance for ALL CLUBS that uses a sliding scale based on number of interstate recruits. As I implied in the question that you conveniently avoided, if it is such an unfair advantage, West Coast for example is welcome to stack their list entirely with Victorians and South Australians. But for some reason, I suspect they wouldn't... (why would that
be....could it be that the go home factor is real???)

2. Count third party payments in the salary cap.

How's that for a start?

Third party payments are already being factored in. Ask Judd. It's only done in agreement with the AFLPA involved. It truly is a restraint of trade to restrict a player's income earned outside of his primary earning activity. In other words, it's not really the AFLs business what you do to make money off the field and it's only done with the best interests of the game in mind by the players. Don't push the point too far tho, you're only one law suit away from bringing down the whole mechanism. And trust me, you destroy this and a few other equality mechanisms, Brisbane would be tumbleweed quicker than you can blink.

J brown doesn't make any money by going on the footy show?

Do you think all players in Vic make third party income? Really?

How's this: make your club more appealing to stay and play!

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Apologies for derailing the thread back on topic..........

He is a good choice.

 

[FuManchu]

They can, but it would be nice if they actually responded to points raised, even if it required them to face some hard truths.

Maybe you can have a crack at answering the bonus question because for some reason FuManchu isn't going near it.

Your issues are totally irrelevant and smack of victim mentality. I don't like to indulge the welfare classes, it only fuels their self fulfilling hate of the outside world.

Learn to live in the real world of football and stop externalising your blame.

In other words, fix your club.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Your issues are totally irrelevant and smack of victim mentality. I don't like to indulge the welfare classes, it only fuels their self fulfilling hate of the outside world.

Learn to live in the real world of football and stop externalising your blame.

In other words, fix your club.

Coward.

Too scared to answer a simple question because it will bring your argument down like a house of cards.

 

[FuManchu]

The answer is fix your club and make it a place where people want to stay and play. That's always going to be the answer for any club, mine included.

Your answer is to seek welfare. Therein lies the difference.

 

[Hollow Knight]

The answer is fix your club and make it a place where people want to stay and play.

We're trying big fella.

http://thelionsroar.net/

That said, I have my eyes wide open and realise that the issues are far more complex than you seem capable and or willing to realise.

Don't worry, it is okay not to understand. I certainly know very little about the full workings of the Collingwood organisation and temper the bravado of my comments accordingly.

If you just want to make glorified and poorly-informed one-way pronouncements and not learn anything, you might prefer to get a blog or a Tumblr page and disable the reader comments.

 

[FuManchu]

We're trying big fella.

http://thelionsroar.net/

That said, I have my eyes wide open and realise that the issues are far more complex than you seem capable and or willing to realise.

Don't worry, it is okay not to understand. I certainly know very little about the full workings of the Collingwood organisation and temper the bravado of my comments accordingly.

If you just want to make glorified and poorly-informed one-way pronouncements and not learn anything, you might prefer to get a blog or a Tumblr page and disable the reader comments.

Personally I couldn't care less if you all fell off the face of the world, that's the importance we place on your club. Funnily enough, it seems to be about the same amount of importance your own administration placed on the club as well. But feel free to complain about all and sundry, feel free to externalise your blame, because until you actually internalise and sort yourselves out, then no one is really going to give a rats.

Until you actually do the hard internal work needed, you will remain an irrelevance. And that's the thing that makes anything you say funny...... you club has become an irrelevance.

Spell it out slowly

I R R E L E V A N T

 

[Jacko72]

Typical Collingwood supporter right there, talking other clubs down like they mean nothing.

 

[Roylion]

The WA clubs have interstate players who live a lot further from their homes and don't have anywhere near the retention problems.

Wonder why that is.

% of players on 2013 list from home state. (including rookies)
Fremantle 40%
West Coast 64%
Brisbane Lions 20%

% of players on 2013 senior list from home state. (excluding rookies)
Fremantle 42%
West Coast 67%
Brisbane Lions 10%

 

[FuManchu]

Wonder why that is.

% of players on 2013 list from home state. (including rookies)
Fremantle 40%
West Coast 64%
Brisbane Lions 20%

% of players on 2013 senior list from home state. (excluding rookies)
Fremantle 42%
West Coast 67%
Brisbane Lions 10%

So the AFL poured millions into QLD football, gave the Lions a hand up to win 3 flags a decade ago, and you're telling me that the Lions have stuffed it up so badly that participation rates are so low in the state that they can't find home grown players.

Once again, look to what the Lions did to maintain if not grow the game with their legacy. Look what the clubs mismanagement has done to enhance their presence in that city. You can't be force fed flags forever. At some stage you have to survive in your own and that includes cementing a place in the psyche of your home town. If you had done this with the opportunity 3 flags afforded you, your home state players ratio would have been higher.

Fix your club and make it a place where players want to stay and play

 

[Rod Stroker]

He is a good choice.

How can you or anyone know that from now? Time will tell.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

How can you or anyone know that from now? Time will tell.

Well at least its on topic!

 

[CF]

My impression of him from his press conference is that he sounded like a really switched on guy. Good luck to him in taking the Lions to the next level.

 

[The GOAT]

Voss can feel very hard done by

 

[Hollow Knight]

 

[smasha]

He will be very good.

Angus finally hits a target.

 

[Roylion]

So the AFL poured millions into QLD football, gave the Lions a hand up to win 3 flags a decade ago, and you're telling me that the Lions have stuffed it up so badly that participation rates are so low in the state that they can't find home grown players.

Oh please. Ever heard of the Gold Coast Football Club? A club that in 2009 was granted access to twenty 17-year-old Queensland players who were eligible for the 2009 AFL draft. The same club was able to zone five Queensland players and two NT players in 2010, 5 Queensland players per year in 2011 and 2012 and had the first five rookie selections for 2010 and 2011 as well. Where are all the Queensland players? Well they ain't at Brisbane. They're down the road at the Gold Coast.

Once again, look to what the Lions did to maintain if not grow the game with their legacy.

They maintained and grew the game. Very nicely in fact. So nicely that the AFL decided to establish a new club just down the road. And gave this new club generous concessions including priority access to Queensland players for five years.

Look what the clubs mismanagement has done to enhance their presence in that city. You can't be force fed flags forever. At some stage you have to survive in your own and that includes cementing a place in the psyche of your home town. If you had done this with the opportunity 3 flags afforded you, your home state players ratio would have been higher.

See comments above re: Gold Coast Suns.

Fix your club and make it a place where players want to stay and play

So you would agree that the reason that the WA clubs don't have as many retention problems is because a greater proportion of their list is from their home state? Thank you. See figures above.

 

[FuManchu]

Oh please. Ever heard of the Gold Coast Football Club? A club that in 2009 was granted access to twenty 17-year-old Queensland players who were eligible for the 2009 AFL draft. The same club was able to zone five Queensland players and two NT players in 2010, 5 Queensland players per year in 2011 and 2012 and had the first five rookie selections for 2010 and 2011 as well. Where are all the Queensland players? Well they ain't at Brisbane. They're down the road at the Gold Coast.



They maintained and grew the game. Very nicely in fact. So nicely that the AFL decided to establish a new club just down the road. And gave this new club generous concessions including priority access to Queensland players for five years.



See comments above re: Gold Coast Suns.



So you would agree that the reason that the WA clubs don't have as many retention problems is because a greater proportion of their list is from their home state? Thank you. See figures above.

The only thing I would agree is: prove that your ub can manage itself properly before asking for artificial means to prop it up

 

[Lets Roar like '44]

Should rename this thread "The Lions flog brigade v Collingwood supporters in a battle of who gives a shit"

 

[Roylion]

The only thing I would agree is: prove that your ub can manage itself properly before asking for artificial means to prop it up

That's why members have called for an EGM to get one united ticket on the board, so the Club can move forward as soon as possible.

Don't underestimate the impact the establishment of the Gold Coast Football Club has had on the Brisbane Lions. It has been significant and the board has been dealing with the impact for some time. Michael Voss was unfortunate in that he coached the Lions at the time, when revenue was down as a result and the club could not afford to properly fund the football department.

Leppitsch will have an excellent opportunity to move the club forward, given the expected revenue generated from the new social club, AFL financial assistance to deal with a short term cash flow problem, which in turn means that the Lions will be able to fully fund their football department and pay 100% of the cap. The removal of all Gold Coast concessions by 2015 will also assist the Lions in accessing more local talent.

 

[FuManchu]

well clearly this is wrong...even my work as a Paramedic I need to get approval from the CEO for any out of hours work/income... The AFL can legally and easily control external incomes as the players are contracted and are not actually employees. It would be written into their contracts which the player signs off

Clearly you don't understand the law. The AFL can prevent any player earning legally obtained income. They can't stop a player earning off investments etc etc.

What they do in agreement with the AFLPA is try and get all third party income arrangements into some monitoring system and apply some rules. All these obligations are voluntary because if that agreement. They don't get challenged because all parties agree to act in the best interests if the game.

Everything is open to challenge in the courts if a litigious and aggrieved party saw for. Especially when it comes to a restraint of trade as thus could potentially be seen as. And don't view it as a restraint of trade in the same light of players choosing what club. This would be purely seen as a restriction placed on income and that is easy challenged.

 

[FuManchu]

That's why members have called for an EGM to get one united ticket on the board, so the Club can move forward as soon as possible.

Don't underestimate the impact the establishment of the Gold Coast Football Club has had on the Brisbane Lions. It has been significant and the board has been dealing with the impact for some time. Michael Voss was unfortunate in that he coached the Lions at the time, when revenue was down as a result and the club could not afford to properly fund the football department.

Leppitsch will have an excellent opportunity to move the club forward, given the expected revenue generated from the new social club, AFL financial assistance to deal with a short term cash flow problem, which in turn means that the Lions will be able to fully fund their football department and pay 100% of the cap. The removal of all Gold Coast concessions by 2015 will also assist the Lions in accessing more local talent.

Then ride it out as other clubs had to ride out your salary cap concession.

 

[Roylion]

Then ride it out as other clubs had to ride out your salary cap concession.

Which was a retention allowance, to combat the inherent disadvantage of having very few local players and as a result having to pay more dollars to retain players recruited from outside Queensland who wanted to return home.