Mithrandir, is that Indian?
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Kouta vs D Jarman
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Mithrandir, is that Indian?
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- #77
One question you seem to be basing Kouta's peak on a few games. How many games pre 2001 did you see Kouta play? He wasn't just brilliant in that 99 prelim and a handful of games in 2000. He turned many games on his own.
Anyway on their peak i'd have to say Kouta, he was the quaterback of the team and set up most plays. Chop off the opposition going into attack and in turn go forward himself. When he did this how many other players could have done the same?
Given I was working in football at the time, plenty.
Having covered most things already, I will say this - I would expect most Hawk/Crow fans to choose Jarman, and all Carlton supporters to choose Kouta, so remove them from the equation, and you'll probably get an accurate representation of what the football public, or at least the lower end that posts here, think about it.
the peak of jarman's career was in 1992. he took a courageous mark across half back, waddled past three opposition players into the centre square, then threaded the perfect 40m long, 2m high pass into the outstretched hands of dunstall, who marked the ball cleanly without even moving or looking. it is officially the best kick ever in the history of vfl/afl football.
kouta's peak was ok, but not quite as good as that instant of football, which was perfect.
in other words, how exactly do you define "peak"? is it one season, one sequence of 5 games, one match, one quarter, one play? everyone keeps talking about kouta in 2000 as being unstoppable, but as I recall, it was really only for 5-6 games towards the end of the season that he tore up. didn't set the world on fire for the first half of the year. didn't win many brownlow votes and certainly didn't win the medal. so his peak was either the whole year, which added up to inconsistent football, or it was a few games towards the end. or was it one game in particular.
it's hard to distinguish the burning bright spot of jarman's career, because every match his disposal was peerless and his footy smarts were shrewd. I saw less of him after he went to the crows, but from what I saw of him at the hawks he was extrordinary. from memory, he kicked 8 goals against essendon in 1992, and dunstall had to leave the ground with a bruised chest from all the times DJ smashed it with the ball. that is one highlight for me. as far as peak games go, that was pretty decent.
it seems to me like the question was engineered in a way that would make kouta out to be the better player. the "peak" clause is clearly referring to that hotstreak of 2000, which was obviously very good, and it may comfort carlton fans to point at that and say kouta has been a great player, but the real truth of the matter is that kouta is someone who never lived up to the hype...
*claps hands*
You might remember another "peak" as well, when he picked up the ball vs Fitzroy (I think it was played in Tassie!) and balked one, then another with the most picture-perfect selling of candy you'll ever see, and slotted one on the left from fifty - one of his six that day. I think I have this game on tape, actually.
If he didn't peak at the moment you mentioned, it must've been the one I mentioned.
I think that was a close second...
cant remember Jarman at his peak. But Kouta at his peak was phenomenal, i remember one game at optus oval he took 15 marks (mostly contested) had 30 possessions (8-10 were clearances) and kick 5 goals. During 2000 he did this on more than one occasion. In saying that Jarman was the most skillful players i've ever seen, so seeing him in full flight would have been something.
![C4[2]Yo`DooR](https://www.bigfootycontent.com/avatars/m/21/21849.jpg?1724656646){kind=avatar}
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Name me 40 players that were better than Kouta was at his peak.Are you 15 years old.
I would not have Kouta in the top 40 players I have seen.
You have got to be joking... Kouta finished on 19 votes and in 4th place, As of round 19 Kouta was leading the brownlow. Here is a little snippet from wikipedia (which being user based you may not deem credible)
"Koutoufides' best season came in 2000 when he played 20 games, averaging 26 disposals, over six marks and nearly 2 goals a game. He was Brownlow Medal favourite in that same year but suffered a knee injury in round twenty, ruining his chances of polling votes in the final three games; he was eventually beaten by Shane Woewodin of the Melbourne Football Club."
Your last point on him not living up to the hype may be true but he has had serious knee surgery many time, for someone that played like Kouta did you cannot continue to play the same after that. He had to re-invent himself and as a result now is the hardball clearance winner we see of him
kouta 2000 brownlow:
rnd 1-6 - 0 votes
rnd 7-11 - 13 votes (purple patch)
rnd 14-20 - 4 votes
ok, his hot spot was the middle of the season, not the end. my memory failed me. still, brownlow-wise he was quiet early and late.
sheesh, if he can't beat woewoeful to the brownlow in 19 rounds of peak footy then how good was he, really??
rnd 1-6 - 0 votes
rnd 7-11 - 13 votes (purple patch)
rnd 14-20 - 4 votes
ok, his hot spot was the middle of the season, not the end. my memory failed me. still, brownlow-wise he was quiet early and late.
sheesh, if he can't beat woewoeful to the brownlow in 19 rounds of peak footy then how good was he, really??
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LOLkouta 2000 brownlow:
rnd 1-6 - 0 votes
rnd 7-11 - 13 votes (purple patch)
rnd 14-20 - 4 votes
ok, his hot spot was the middle of the season, not the end. my memory failed me. still, brownlow-wise he was quiet early and late.
sheesh, if he can't beat woewoeful to the brownlow in 19 rounds of peak footy then how good was he, really??
I can't beleive you're using Brownlow votes to try and justify a performance.
... that is absurd.
that was to identify the peak of his season, which was clearly in those 5 games where he won 13 votes out of a possible 15. that's pretty decent.
in those games he was clearly the best player. in most of the other games he wasn't clearly the best player. the voting system isn't 100% reliable, but it's not so poor that it should be discounted entirely.
I can't believe you're using a 5 game period to measure a players worth against another...
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Kouta a great athlete, Jarman a far better footballer.
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that was to identify the peak of his season, which was clearly in those 5 games where he won 13 votes out of a possible 15. that's pretty decent.
in those games he was clearly the best player. in most of the other games he wasn't clearly the best player. the voting system isn't 100% reliable, but it's not so poor that it should be discounted entirely.
I can't believe you're using a 5 game period to measure a players worth against another...
So according to you a players worth and contribution to a game can be determined by the amount of Brownlow Votes he polls ?
Greg Williams once racked up 40+ possessions and never received a vote.
The Brownlow voting system should be discounted entirely because it isnt accurate at all. You are trying to tell me that Kouta obviously wasn't as influential on certain games because he didnt poll any Brownlow votes from the field umpires on the day ?
FYI - Kouta's peak was for more than just a 5 game period.
Blue Dawn
Norm Smith Medallist
Kouta was good....................but he never turned two GF's off his own boot like Jarman did
With due respect for Diesel, Kouta was very unlucky not to win the Norm Smith in '95. Took the '99 Prelim away from Essendon almost single-handedly in the last quarter.
Don't think i've seen a better kick of the footy than Jarman but Kouta (pre knee injury) in 2000 played THE most dominant footy i've EVER seen on a footy field. He dominated EVERYBODY - including Carey! How can you twits not reognise his incredible power athleticism.
He was unstoppable at his prime.
that was his absolute peak. like I discussed earlier, how long do you measure the peak? a seasies of games, or a season, or what? it's not really been defined in this topic.
I don't think GW would like to hear you say that brownlow votes should be discounted entirely. it's fair to say that he was on the receiving end of a few over the course of his career.
as I stated, I don't think the voting system is 100%, which you demonstrated with your GW anecdote (the same scenario against collingwood cost crawf a second brownlow a few years ago), but I think it is a pretty fair indication. how many independent voting tallies are kept in any one season? think about it. across the media experts vote after every game. sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't, but the same players always seem to be up the top of the tree. I think this supports my notion that brownlow votes can be used as a fair indication of how a player is performing.
I wish you would read my posts more carefully before commenting on them...
With due respect for Diesel, Kouta was very unlucky not to win the Norm Smith in '95. Took the '99 Prelim away from Essendon almost single-handedly in the last quarter.
Don't think i've seen a better kick of the footy than Jarman but Kouta (pre knee injury) in 2000 played THE most dominant footy i've EVER seen on a footy field. He dominated EVERYBODY - including Carey! How can you twits not reognise his incredible power athleticism.
That's a big call!
Even at his best i don't think he is as good as Dunstall, Carey and Abblett. They also managed to sustain it for years more than Kouta.
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With due respect for Diesel, Kouta was very unlucky not to win the Norm Smith in '95. Took the '99 Prelim away from Essendon almost single-handedly in the last quarter.
Don't think i've seen a better kick of the footy than Jarman but Kouta (pre knee injury) in 2000 played THE most dominant footy i've EVER seen on a footy field. He dominated EVERYBODY - including Carey! How can you twits not reognise his incredible power athleticism.
Kouta was not in the same clas as Carey.
Sorry, son.
wow! even handed call coming from a carlton boy!
a good friend of mine (a passionate carlton supporter) once told me several years ago that "potential" was his most hated word ever. this is because potential is essentially something that everyone expects but hasn't happened yet.
in many ways, kouta has gone on to embody the word. even his brief peak period is really just a peek at what he was capable of. and for those who say that he was cut down with a knee injury, there are plenty of players who have returned from serious injury. take the above mentioned players, for example. dunstall had a fractured skull in 1990 and played two 100+ goal years with a ruptured bursa in his knee. carey had nemerous problems with his shoulders, extended over several years, but he was always a champion when he was out on the park. and ablett had to suffer a serious swing of public belief at the hands of the beatles during the "bigger than jesus" phase
.the mere existence of this discussion confirms the overall disappontment in kouta over the course of his career. perhaps he should have stuck with high jump...
wow! even handed call coming from a carlton boy!
a good friend of mine (a passionate carlton supporter) once told me several years ago that "potential" was his most hated word ever. this is because potential is essentially something that everyone expects but hasn't happened yet.
in many ways, kouta has gone on to embody the word. even his brief peak period is really just a peek at what he was capable of. and for those who say that he was cut down with a knee injury, there are plenty of players who have returned from serious injury. take the above mentioned players, for example. dunstall had a fractured skull in 1990 and played two 100+ goal years with a ruptured bursa in his knee. carey had nemerous problems with his shoulders, extended over several years, but he was always a champion when he was out on the park. and ablett had to suffer a serious swing of public belief at the hands of the beatles during the "bigger than jesus" phase
the mere existence of this discussion confirms the overall disappontment in kouta over the course of his career. perhaps he should have stuck with high jump...
3 knees stoped him not 1 so stop trolling and learn somthing about the game many of the best Champs of the game say Kouta was the one of the best the very best no just great Jarman isnt even as good as Kernahan it really dont matter he has had his time and thats really all there is to it.
The idea of this thread is silly. How long does a "peak" last? Five games, a season, five years? I watched many Hawthorn games in the 90s from the stands and I remember Jarman winning several games off his own boot. He had a purple patch of his own for us in 1995 from rounds 13-19 where he got 15 votes from 7 games.
The thread was obviously started by someone who was ticked off that Jarman got into the Hall of Fame. It's just sour grapes. A better question to ask is: will Kouta also get into the Hall of Fame? The answer is no.
The thread was obviously started by someone who was ticked off that Jarman got into the Hall of Fame. It's just sour grapes. A better question to ask is: will Kouta also get into the Hall of Fame? The answer is no.
Yes he and it means stuff all they let in anyone now.
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