Coach Lions - Has the Fagan era already peaked?

[WillHayward]

Yeah I dunno why you'd waste your 20's on kids when you're an elite athlete drowning in cash and women but that's slightly off topic I think

Anyway aside from Zorko "ruining his kids lives" he's a petulant little flog.
Refusing to shake Touk's hand after a game after being smashed by him and then laughing in his face after the game in a rematch.
Yeah well done Dayne! Your child hates you and you beat Gold Coast Suns, whooo hooooo!

Enjoying drinking champagne from your Q-Cup mate, because you're not getting close to a premiership cup!

Touk will have the last laugh I think.
Suns now closer to a flag than Lions.

 

[blueiris]

On paper they're pretty close. They're mentally weak though.
Could do with an A grade midfielder.

I think they'll be better once Dickhead Zorko Who Cheats On His Wife is out of the team. Can't be good for your "culture" having that jerk as your captain.
"Fish Rots At The Head!"

the Melbourne coach cheated on he’s wife after 15 years of marriage shouldn’t throw stones in Glasshouses as they say

 

[Toump Ass]

the Melbourne coach cheated on he’s wife after 15 years of marriage shouldn’t throw stones in Glasshouses as they say

Never been reported anywhere.
Stop making things up.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

They say we have good youngsters. Not that we are current day contenders.

Anyway. Can we stay on topic.
It's a perfectly legitimate question and thread for discussion.
Who I go for is irrelevant.

Huh? Did you mean to respond to me?

 

[La Dispute]

Commentators bang on about how good it is seeing Daniher running around smiling all game, but he genuinely plays like he's taking the piss and it's reflected in his week-to-week performance.

How many other key forwards have a big giggle when they miss easy shots at goal? Smacks of a guy who likes playing footy, but is indifferent towards winning. Their list has been perfectly put together, but they're just a bit template and by the numbers. Elite players across the ground, but very little killer instinct.

Fagan also doesn't strike me as a hard campaigner like most recent former premiership coaches - Clarko, Dimma, Matthews etc. Kind of looks like a postman or some distant relative of Santa and players would not be intimidated in the slightest.

 

[Thrawn]

Malthouse on ABC radio commentary after the Thursday night game that Brisbane were pretenders and not to be taken seriously. I wrote it off as him being bitter about 2002 and 2003 but it appears he might be correct. What is their deficiency?

Put money on Brisbane for the flag then.

 

[apollo_creed]

the Melbourne coach cheated on he’s wife after 15 years of marriage shouldn’t throw stones in Glasshouses as they say

Pretty sure alot in the industry would be cheating on their wives every year of marriage. Just becomes an issue when they get caught and not forgiven/it becomes public knowledge.

 

[The Devils Advocate]

Is it floggish to enter a thread..attack the OP and not contribute a single thing to the actual thread topic?

Asking for a friend.

I mean what's the point?

You've jumped into the thread, not explained your point at all (see below) presumably you're impying that the Lions lost to Essendon, so they must not be contenders. When in fact Sydney lost to Essendon the week prior, without covid going through the team.

Is it time call it out?

No longer contenders but pretenders.

I'm simply stating that Sydney have been subjected to the same condition as Brisbane but to a lower degree, does this make Sydney pretenders also?

Sorry re: floggishness, it's in my nature.

 

[WillHayward]

So McStay is out the door.
Maybe

You've jumped into the thread, not explained your point at all (see below) presumably you're impying that the Lions lost to Essendon, so they must not be contenders. When in fact Sydney lost to Essendon the week prior, without covid going through the team.



I'm simply stating that Sydney have been subjected to the same condition as Brisbane but to a lower degree, does this make Sydney pretenders also?

Sorry re: floggishness, it's in my nature.

You've jumped into the thread, not explained your point at all (see below) presumably you're impying that the Lions lost to Essendon, so they must not be contenders. When in fact Sydney lost to Essendon the week prior, without covid going through the team.



I'm simply stating that Sydney have been subjected to the same condition as Brisbane but to a lower degree, does this make Sydney pretenders also?

Sorry re: floggishness, it's in my nature.

Sydney finished 16th in 2020.
So no real expectation.

Lions been top 4 for a few years.
Expectation is they're "ready for a flag".

Anyway do you have an opinion on the Lions situation or just here to pot me?

 

[The Devils Advocate]

So McStay is out the door.
Maybe



Sydney finished 16th in 2020.
So no real expectation.

Lions been top 4 for a few years.
Expectation is they're "ready for a flag".

I think most people had them at about equal.

 

[WillHayward]

I think most people had them at about equal.

That's nonsense. Stop lying.

Afl journos had Lions winning flag

Crystal Ball: Our predictions for the 2022 AFL season are in - Crystal Ball: Our predictions for the 2022 AFL season are in

Foxsports had Sydney missing 8 and Lions winning flag

These 5 rules predict who’ll crash out of the AFL top eight. There’s one big surprise

These 5 rules project who’ll crash out of the top eight. There’s one big surprise: AFL Predicted Ladder

www.foxsports.com.au

Bookies had Lions 2nd

Latest 2022 AFL Odds – August Update with Premiership Pick

With the finals on the horizon, the best Aussie Rules betting sites have updated their 2022 AFL premiership odds. Check out my predictions.

www.gamblingsites.com

Just stop lying

Terrible when people come on here and try to make some personal point. Off topic. And are prepared to lie to prove their point.
Even when there is clear evidence available to validate it. They still lie anyway.

 

[JasRulz63]

Malthouse on ABC radio commentary after the Thursday night game that Brisbane were pretenders and not to be taken seriously. I wrote it off as him being bitter about 2002 and 2003 but it appears he might be correct. What is their deficiency?

Midfield, specifically inside midfielders and midfielders that run both ways. Our second best inside midfielder is Lyons, who has hit a wall and become the player GC thought they were getting rid of 4 years ago. McCluggage is good but he's not a midfielder that you'd want to be relying on to be in and under.

The forward line efficiency masks some of the inefficiency of the midfield, by being the most effective forward line in the league at converting inside 50s into scores (and goals), as well as being first in accuracy. But realistically despite being the highest scoring team in the league we're around 8th for inside 50 differential.

The issue is that that fix for our midfield issues isn't likely to come from our current list. If we can turn the cap space from McStay leaving into another midfielder to help Neale out and runs defensively, McStay leaving could be a blessing in disguise.

 

[The Devils Advocate]

That's nonsense. Stop lying.

Afl journos had Lions winning flag

Crystal Ball: Our predictions for the 2022 AFL season are in - Crystal Ball: Our predictions for the 2022 AFL season are in

Foxsports had Sydney missing 8 and Lions winning flag

These 5 rules predict who’ll crash out of the AFL top eight. There’s one big surprise

These 5 rules project who’ll crash out of the top eight. There’s one big surprise: AFL Predicted Ladder

www.foxsports.com.au

Bookies had Lions 2nd

Latest 2022 AFL Odds – August Update with Premiership Pick

With the finals on the horizon, the best Aussie Rules betting sites have updated their 2022 AFL premiership odds. Check out my predictions.

www.gamblingsites.com

Just stop lying

Terrible when people come on here and try to make some personal point. Off topic. And are prepared to lie to prove their point.
Even when there is clear evidence available to validate it. They still lie anyway.

I really can't be bothered looking for my pre-season ladder, but I had you top 4. But sure, go full victim mode for no reason lol. I also had Essendon outside the 8. Embarrassingly, I had Collingwood last.

You hate it when individuals make personal comments on a board full of individual's subjective opinions?

Nice melt.

 

[King Tenz]

Midfield, specifically inside midfielders and midfielders that run both ways. Our second best inside midfielder is Lyons, who has hit a wall and become the player GC thought they were getting rid of 4 years ago. McCluggage is good but he's not a midfielder that you'd want to be relying on to be in and under.

The forward line efficiency masks some of the inefficiency of the midfield, by being the most effective forward line in the league at converting inside 50s into scores (and goals), as well as being first in accuracy. But realistically despite being the highest scoring team in the league we're around 8th for inside 50 differential.

The issue is that that fix for our midfield issues isn't likely to come from our current list. If we can turn the cap space from McStay leaving into another midfielder to help Neale out and runs defensively, McStay leaving could be a blessing in disguise.

Wow really, I always thought you guys had a really good midfield. Neale, Lyons, Berry, Zorko, McCluggage.

 

[Bald]

Brisbane have the opposite issue to us.

Great forwards and good defenders. No midfield.

 

[La Dispute]

Lyons is a weird one.

Hodge often makes these veiled snide comments when asked about him. Talks up his hand-eye co-ordination and then implies he has no tank or he doesn’t run defensively.

It’s odd because Lyons strikes me as a guy you can back to win a one-on-one contest or drive a pretty quick play.

Maybe Brisbane are running around with too many incomplete footballers who have serious blindspots that never get addressed because the team is always generally going well.

 

[JasRulz63]

Wow really, I always thought you guys had a really good midfield. Neale, Lyons, Berry, Zorko, McCluggage.

Lyons has taken a step back this year, he's still active with the ball in the area (as evidenced by his clearance and tackle numbers) but his contested possession and TOG% are down on previous years, and he struggles once the ball leaves the immediate contested area.

Berry had played predominantly on a wing this year (especially with his bung shoulder) and has played really well, and attends the occasional centre bounce. Similarly, Zorko has slowly been phased out of the midfield and only attends a couple of centre bounces every quarter these days.

With Berry on the wing and and Zorko spending more time at HF (he's lost some zip given he's 33), there's not a whole lot of midfield depth outside of Neale, Lyons and McCluggage.

 

[JasRulz63]

Brisbane have the opposite issue to us.

Great forwards and good defenders. No midfield.

Pretty much. A couple of weeks ago when the two sides played, the Dogs won the clearance battle +13 and the contested disposal count +7, but then scored from 44% of inside 50s compared to Brisbanes 64%.

 

[Hirsty23]

Possibly. In my opinion the best we've looked during the Fagan area was between rounds 5-16 last season when we went 10-1 I believe. In Round 15 we had a super impressive win against Geelong up at the Gabba by about 9 goals where we were ferocious, we looked every bit a premiership quality side that night. Then fast forward a couple of weeks later and we had three really flat, lazy performances where we lost to St Kilda, Richmond and Hawthorn. In these games we were outworked and some really lazy habits of our midfield and defensive transition were on show. These signs actually hadn't at all been visible during 2019 or 2020 where we were mega consistent and didn't drop many if any games to teams below us on the ladder.

This year we have had just two performances that I believe have been of top quality, against the Suns in Round 6 and against the Swans in Round 7. Generally we are good enough to bank wins, especially at home but I think all Lions supporters have been waiting for us to really kick into premiership quality form and so far it hasn't happened. The last 7 weeks minus the Dogs game have been the worst we've looked since the start of 2019.

Now as far as this year and our premiership chances, i'm not gonna go as far as to rule us out as contenders just yet, though on current form it does not look likely. The threat of covid is very real for all clubs and we won't be the last team to have a big outbreak so honestly who knows how this season will pan out.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Its not even really a backline problem, but across the ground.

Correct. Specifically, the midfield failing to get back in numbers is what's killing us. The backline are doing their best but have been hampered by injuries and get practically no help from the midfield. 5 or 6 defenders were out against Essendon.

On the bright side, we have plenty of good small defenders coming through - Starcevich is a star, Coleman is a great field kick, Michael looked handy against Essendon and Wilmot is improving in the twos also. There will be a lot to work with in the next few years.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Plenty of folk had Lions as flag favourites (before last night).

Currently in 3rd so that says "contender" but when it matters they just cant cut it. Why is this?

2020 Prelim Final - GABBA - 40 point loss to Cats
2021 - Qualifying Final - AO - 33 point loss to Demons
2021 - Semi Final - GABBA - 1 point loss to Dogs
2022 Rd 15 - Round - MCG - 64 point loss to Demons

Last night could have been 100 point loss (16.21 to 7.11)

Lions have lost 5 of 6 finals and it sounds bad on the face of it.

But you dig a little deeper….

They entered that period in 2019 as a young team before their time. They have a much better age profile for winning finals now. Whether they have the right team and gameplan, I am less sure, my main concern is lacking zip in defence and to some extent in the midfield. But they do have the weapons to challenge any team in the competition, I am confident about that.

But there are winning and losing finals and winning and losing finals.

A final is not a final.

Let’s examine who the Lions played in their six finals.

1. Lions beat Premier Richmond in the 2020 QF. This is THE SAME amount of finals wins as Geelong have against teams finishing top 4 since and including 2012.

2. Lions lost to Premier Richmond in the QF 2019

3. Lions lost to GWS, the eventual runner-up SF 2019 by under a goal

4. Lions lost to runner-up team Geelong 2020 PF

5. Lions lost to Premier Melbourne 2021 QF(Demons smallest winning margin in the finals series)

6. Lions lost to Runner-up Bulldogs 2021 SF by under a goal.


So what do we see here….Brisbane have not played a final in the 3 finals series against a team who finished lower than 2nd after the finals series. So they have been attending a tough school in finals. By way of comparison, Geelong have lost 14 of their last 15 finasl against teams who finished the finals series in the top 4. As it happens the only one team the Cats beat of all of those 15 finals v teams who finished top 4, was Brisbane themselves in the shortened match finals series in 2020.

So Lions finals opponents finished after the finals series:

Wins over: 1

Losses to: 1, 1, 2, 2(by < 1 goal), 2(by < 1 goal)

That is kind of important, how good your finals opposition is. It is worth noting Brisbane are one of only two teams to beat a Premier in any final in the last 15 finals series, the other being Eagles in 2015 over the Hawks. This is I think something of a feather in the Lions’ cap in terms of their finals performance.

Contrast to what seems to be the current narrative around Geelong FC and people like purple saying on one hand “people are entitled to talk about Brisbane’s poor finals record until they win a flag” and on the other hand “I just love the way Geelong keep giving themselves a chance year after year.”

The Lions should have more to come and if they get a bit of luck this year could still be a massive threat.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Yeah I dunno why you'd waste your 20's on kids when you're an elite athlete drowning in cash and women but that's slightly off topic I think

Anyway aside from Zorko "ruining his kids lives" he's a petulant little flog.
Refusing to shake Touk's hand after a game after being smashed by him and then laughing in his face after the game in a rematch.
Yeah well done Dayne! Your child hates you and you beat Gold Coast Suns, whooo hooooo!

Enjoying drinking champagne from your Q-Cup mate, because you're not getting close to a premiership cup!

Zorko has generally lacked class and discipline his whole career, but in the case of the Suns I think it's quite personal for him, as he's from the Gold Coast but was repeatedly overlooked by them at the start of his career. Doesn't excuse his poor sportsmanship but the chip on his shoulder is understandable. I do think we'll be a better team when he's no longer captain, because I don't think he sets the best example for the rest.

 

[Duskfire]

Weird team, been so good since 2019 but just fall away when it matters.

They're a bit like Geelong really, so good all year (especially at home) and then September comes around and they just fall off to better teams.

As much shit as Geelong gets, they actually have a better finals record than Brisbane recently, and that is saying something

 

[McIvor]

I agree with the overall question that we have peaked under Fagan - 2019 - 2021 was our opportunity and now things need to change at the end of the year in a big way if our fortunes are to turn around.

Its on Fagan that we rarely win games we are underdogs or have wins on the road against other top 4 teams, even during our better years in 19-21. Hence my admiration of the Dockers this year winning in Geelong, against Melbourne, Saints and other scalps along the way.

As 3KZ said on previous page, I think he's selection of certain players that are his favourites has hurt the team and I think he has double standards for certain players which the dressing room must be taking notice of.

Lots of problems at the Lions, Fagan is one of them, but I think we're stuffed now that we are about to go through an Eagles type covid situation of earlier in the year right when we are about to go through a really tough end of year.

 

[Tas]

I think their amazing run with injuries has peaked, their depth is a bit of a concern as a contender.

It is that disruption to continuity which is the killer, you get players back, others go out, disrupts the balance of the side, players lose form, confidence.