Lions vs Cats vs Hawks - Which dynasty is the best?

[Jhye Clark 13]

And the insecurities continue... that is, the need to bring 08 into the equation despite not being qualified to be included into any dynasty debate.

There's a reason nobody was willing to accept my offer... now that reality has kicked in, I'll dance away with my tail between my legs and wish Hawthorn all the best next year in their quest to overtake Geelong.

PS: There was a hell of a lot more I could have posted, but that will suffice.

Enjoy the rest of your year peoples, and keep celebrating that three-peat Hawks supporters... well done.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

And the insecurities continue... that is, the need to bring 08 into the equation despite not being qualified to be included into any dynasty debate.

There's a reason nobody was willing to accept my offer... now that reality has kicked in, I'll dance away with my tail between my legs and wish Hawthorn all the best next year in their quest to overtake Geelong.

PS: There was a hell of a lot more I could have posted, but that will suffice.

Enjoy the rest of your year peoples, and keep celebrating that three-peat Hawks supporters... well done.

Hang on why is 2011 in your dynasty ? when you didn't make the GF and got belted in a prelim in 2010? Under your logic its Geelong 2007-2009, Brisbane 2001-2004 & Hawthorn 2012-2015.

 

[lionbear]

Have you checked the stats on their winning G/F %....Only the Saints is worse, which is why they played a draw.

Have you looked at the venue, I don't know but Fremantle Sydney and West Coast on the MCG is at least the equal of Collingwood, Especially when you could lay claim to owning the ground the last 3 years.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Have you looked at the venue, I don't know but Fremantle Sydney and West Coast on the MCG is at least the equal of Collingwood, Especially when you could lay claim to owning the ground the last 3 years.

Last I checked, the Grand final has always been played at the M.C.G....What's your point of conflict/variance?

That's like whingeing that the sun has always risen in the East, it's time for a re-think!

 

[hk89]

All Australians I love that as an argument 8 muppets opinions who probably don't even watch half the seasons matches lol.

Even if you think the muppets got it right, it still doesn't reflect well on Geelong. It simply underlines how they had an amazing list that failed to get it done in finals on several key occasions.

 

[lionbear]

Last I checked, the Grand final has always been played at the M.C.G....What's your point of conflict/variance?

That's like whingeing that the sun has always risen in the East, it's time for a re-think!

So your saying its no advantage that the Grand Final is played on your home ground and the team you played West Coast played their once beofre Grand Final Day?

I am not winging about it, I am comparing 3 peats, and if you can't understand that interstate clubs do have a slight disadvantage coming to the G than I really can't help.

 

[hk89]

And the insecurities continue... that is, the need to bring 08 into the equation despite not being qualified to be included into any dynasty debate.

Any what is your justification for not including it? Yes we under-performed for several reasons in 09 and 10, but a full third of our starting 18 were the same in 2008 and 2015, with the same captain, and the same coach. Same dynasty, as much as it pains you to admit it.

As for insecurities, try removing the pre-VFL flags from your sig's flag count before lecturing anyone on insecurity.

 

[Procrastinator35]

So your saying its no advantage that the Grand Final is played on your home ground and the team you played West Coast played their once beofre Grand Final Day?

I am not winging about it, I am comparing 3 peats, and if you can't understand that interstate clubs do have a slight disadvantage coming to the G than I really can't help.

But our home ground is in Launceston....We are an interstate club too.

 

[Hawkk]

Hawthorn’s 46-point demolition of West Coast in the 2015 grand final gave them their third premiership in as many years, joining Brisbane as the only two sides to have achieved the feat this century.

Between the Lion’s third premiership in 2003 and Hawthorn’s first in 2013, Geelong also won three premierships. Although theirs were not consecutive, taking five seasons to complete between their first in 2007, and most recent in 2011.

During those years the Cats also lost another grand final in 2008, while both Hawthorn and Brisbane were defeated in grand finals prior to and after their respective hat-tricks.

Given the similarities between the success of the three sides and how comparatively recent that success was, it is only natural that comparisons between them will be made, and the inevitable question of who is the best will be asked.

Comparing the three teams may be a fruitless exercise. One that will no doubt be the cause of many an argument over the coming years, as indisputable evidence is brought forth to back up or refute any given opinion. Particularly by supporters of the three teams involved.

Being a supporter of none of these teams and with equal admiration for them all, it is difficult to split the three as they all were, or in the case of Hawthorn are, magnificent sides.

Games records
Total points scored by the three over their most successful five consecutive seasons shows just how close they are. Between 2000 and 2004 Brisbane scored 14,058 points, while Geelong amassed 14,217 from 2007 to 2011, and Hawthorn 14,054 from 2011 to 2015.

Over each club’s respective five-year period they each played 110 home-and-away games. Brisbane won 76 of theirs, giving them a winning percentage of 69 per cent. Geelong won 93 at 84.5 per cent, and Hawthorn 87 at 79 per cent.

Both Brisbane and Geelong have a win rate of 80 per cent in finals, winning 12 of their 15 post-season appearances, while Hawthorn have played 16, for 12 wins at 75 per cent.

This gives Brisbane a total winning percentage of 70.4 per cent from 125 games, Geelong 84 per cent from the same amount of appearances, and Hawthorn 78.5 per cent from 126 matches.

Depending on how much emphasis one places on the home-and-away season, it could easily be argued the Geelong has by far the best overall record, so therefore is the superior side.

However there would be few neutral supporters who could recall who won the minor premiership in any given year. Team success in the AFL is ultimately gained by how far any team progresses in September.

Many consider the home-and-away season just a prelude to finals, and in terms of post-season success very little separates the three sides.

They have all won 12 finals – albeit the Hawks from one more appearance. Geelong and Hawthorn also both made it through to preliminary finals in the one season they did not play in a grand final, while Brisbane lost a semi-final in the only year they did not make it to last Saturday in September.

Key statistics
From a statistical perspective Geelong are the best performed side, ranking in the top three in each of the key statistical areas over their five seasons. The Cats were ranked first in handballs, disposals, contested possessions and disposal efficiency. Second in kicks and clearances, and third in tackles and marks.

Brisbane were ranked in the top three of all but one category over their five-year period. The Lions were ranked first in handballs, disposals, contested possession and clearances, second in kicks and third in marks and tackles.

Over the last five years Hawthorn has only been ranked first in two categories – total disposals and disposal efficiency. The Hawks have been ranked first in efficiency in four campaigns of their five-season period, and second in the other, however they ranked poorly compared to the other two sides in contested possession, clearances and tackles.

While any comparison cannot be made on statistics alone, they do provide somewhat of a guide to each side’s strengths and weaknesses. A cursory glance suggests both Brisbane and Geelong relied heavily on contested possession and winning clearances, while Hawthorn’s greatest strength is their efficiency with the ball.

Individual player honours
Given the three sides’ dominance in each of their respective periods of success, it is to be expected that a number of players within each side would earn individual honours.

Between them the Lions, Cats and Hawks have had 58 players selected in All-Australian sides during their respective five-year periods. Geelong is the most represented with 28, followed by Brisbane 17 and Hawthorn 13.

Gary Ablett Jr, Corey Enright and Matthew Scarlett from Geelong, and Brisbane’s Nigel Lappin were each selected four times, while another five players made the All-Australian side three times. Three of those came from Brisbane, and one each from Geelong and Hawthorn.

Both Brisbane and Geelong had two Brownlow Medallists each. For the Lions, Jason Akermanis won in 2001, with Simon Black emulating him the following year. Geelong’s Jimmy Bartel and Gary Ablett Jr took the award home in 2007 and 2009 respectively.

Overall Geelong polled 511 Brownlow votes over their five seasons. Brisbane were next with 461, just ahead of Hawthorn with 460.

Gary Ablett Jr was also named the AFL Players’ Association MVP three times in 2007, 2008 and 2009. Brisbane Captain Michael Voss won the award in 2002 and 2003.

Although not producing either a Brownlow Medallist or AFLPA MVP over the last five years, Hawthorn are the only side of the three to have a Coleman Medallist – and have done so twice. Lance Franklin in 2011 and Jarryd Roughead in 2013.

The Hawks have also had three Norm Smith Medallists. Brian Lake in 2013, Luke Hodge 2014, and Cyril Rioli this year. As do Geelong with Steve Johnson winning in 2007, Jimmy Bartel in 2009, and Paul Chapman in 2011. Brisbane only had two medallists – Shaun Hart in 2001 and Simon Black in 2003.

Opposition
Ranking the opposition of each team is as conjectural as comparing the three to each other, and would probably cause just as much debate. However looking at each side’s grand final opponents on paper, it could be argued the Lions won theirs against slightly lesser quality sides than Hawthorn and Geelong.

Brisbane defeated defending premiers Essendon in 2001, before consecutive wins against Collingwood in the 2002 and 2003 deciders. The following season they lost to Port Adelaide, and have only played in one finals series since – finishing sixth in 2009.

Geelong’s first premiership in 2007 was also against Port Adelaide. This was followed by a loss to Hawthorn in the 2008 grand final, and another premiership against St Kilda in 2009. In 2011 the Cats collected their third against Collingwood, who had beaten the Saints in 2010.

After narrowly losing to Collingwood in a preliminary final in 2011, Hawthorn were defeated by Sydney in the 2012 decider, before defeating Fremantle in 2013 to claim the first of their three premierships.

In 2013 they reversed the result of two years previously by easily defeating the Swans, followed by this season’s comfortable win over West Coast.

Brisbane’s first grand final win over Essendon was against quality opposition. The Bombers were defending premiers, and had easily been the best performed team over the three previous seasons. The loss to the Lions in the decider was only their fourth during that time.

Their next two premierships in 2002 and 2003 were against Collingwood sides that could legitimately be called solid at best. Although the side included some very good players such as Chris Tarrant, Alan Didak and Scott Burns, the only bonafide A-grader in the team was skipper Nathan Buckley.

The Lions’ fourth grand final appearance was a 40-point loss to Port Adelaide. After finishing in third place in 2001, the Power had finished the home-and-away season on top of the ladder in 2002, 2003 and 2004. This was to be Port Adelaide’s first, and so far only premiership.

The first of Geelong’s four premierships in 2007 was also against Port Adelaide, although the side was not of the same calibre as the 2004 premiers. After narrowly defeating Collingwood by five points in their preliminary final, the Cats went on to defeat Port by a record 119 points.

In 2008 Geelong went into the grand final as firm favourites against Hawthorn after winning all but one game during the season, only to go down by 26 points in front of the first 100,000-plus crowd since 1986.

On an aside (and because it involves two of the teams in discussion), this was the match that instigated the infamous ‘Kennett’s Curse’, named after former Victorian Premier and Hawthorn president at the time Jeff Kennett.

In the lead-up to the 2009 season Kennett publicly questioned Geelong’s ability to match it mentally with the Hawks.

“What they don’t have, I think, is the quality of some of our players; they don’t have the psychological drive we have,” he said.

“We’ve beaten Geelong when it matters.”

It is history now that the Geelong players made a pact to never be beaten by Hawthorn again, and lived up to it at least for a while, winning the next 11 meetings between the two sides. It was not until the 2013 preliminary final that the curse was finally lifted.

In 2009 Geelong appeared in their third consecutive grand final against St Kilda in what many consider to be one of the great grand finals of recent times. In a hard fought and skilful contest, Geelong won by 12 points.

The following year Geelong lost a preliminary final to Collingwood, who went on to defeat St Kilda in a replay after the first grand final ended in a draw.

In 2011, Geelong went into their fourth decider in five years against a Collingwood side that had finished on top of the home-and-away ladder after dropping only two games throughout the season – both to the Cats. After a tight first three quarters, Geelong kicked away in the last to win by 38 points.

After narrowly losing a preliminary final to Collingwood the previous year, Hawthorn went into the 2012 grand final as favourites against Sydney. However, just as the Hawks did to Geelong in 2008, the Swans won in a 10-point upset.

The following year Hawthorn finished the season on top of the ladder, and met third placed Fremantle in the grand final. It was the Dockers’ first appearance at the MCG in the final game of the season, and although they acquitted themselves well, they didn’t make the most of their opportunities, with the Hawks taking out the first of three consecutive premierships by 15 points.

The Hawks finished the 2014 season second behind Sydney on percentage, and the two went on to meet in the decider for the second time in three seasons. This time the Swans went into the game as favourites, but had unfortunately saved their worst game of the year for the grand final, and were soundly beaten by 63 points.

After being touted as almost unbeatable at times throughout 2015, and written off to a degree at others, Hawthorn cemented their place in football history with a comfortable 46-point victory over West Coast, to claim their third consecutive flag.

As was mentioned above, of the three sides Brisbane arguably had the easiest opposition. While both Essendon and Port were very good teams, the Collingwood sides of 2002 and 2003 was not of the same quality as the 2010-2011 Magpies.

Geelong’s first win against Port Adelaide was by a record margin, and although the side contained some great players, the majority of those were either in their final years or just starting out.

Although Hawthorn won the 2014 grand final easily, it was against a very good side that just happened to have a very poor day. However, their win this season was against a young and up-and-coming team in West Coast, who appeared overawed by the occasion, unable to compete equally with such a seasoned side.

Verdict
Despite being the only one of the sides not to win their three premierships in succession, at least on paper the Cats come out on top.

Although the three sides’ finals records cannot be split, Geelong’s overall win rate of 84 per cent over their five seasons is far better than that of either Hawthorn (78.5%), or Brisbane (70.4%).

The Cats had the best of both the Lions and Hawks in the key statistical areas, while also having the most All-Australian representatives with 28, compared to 17 for the Lions, and 13 for the Hawks.

Geelong also polled the most Brownlow votes, collecting 511 over their five seasons, 50 more than Brisbane who claimed 461, while Hawthorn had 460.

Arguments about the quality of each team’s respective opposition will always be made. However going by the conclusions drawn above, the teams the Cats faced from 2007 to 2011 were at least the equal of, if not better than that of the Lions or Hawks in their successful eras.

While it is impossible to truly compare the three given there are so many variables involved, speculation on which side is the best will continue for some time. Unless of course Hawthorn win the next one or two premierships to firmly settle the debate once and for all.

Nice novel

Where is Hawthorn 2008 in this dyer tribe?

3-1 in finals and no b2b let alone b3b...

It must hurt that your ONLY premiership captains since the cuban missile crisis have proclaimed the superiority of Hawthorn in successive GF telecasts

 

[Hawkk]

I still rank Brisbane ahead of Hawhtorn, unless I missed something and Brisbane Played the 2001-2003 Grand Finals on the Gabba.

Did Brisbane have merger concessions and a second salary cap?

Thought so...

 

[Tyler Hodges]

If we snag another one its no contest, but I Agree it would be brilliant if the 2 sides could match up.

People were saying that at the start of the year, we've won 4 flags? Poll over I don't get it why is there still talk? Same coach and 6 CRUCIAL players in 08. These blokes were the heart and soul of team then as well as now. Give it up haters 4 flags...

 

[Hawkk]

Where is Hawthorn 2008

 

[Hawkk]

Vs



4 (inc b2b2b) 》》》 3 (non consecutive)

 

[dipper86]

Hawthorn’s 46-point demolition of West Coast in the 2015 grand final gave them their third premiership in as many years, joining Brisbane as the only two sides to have achieved the feat this century.

Between the Lion’s third premiership in 2003 and Hawthorn’s first in 2013, Geelong also won three premierships. Although theirs were not consecutive, taking five seasons to complete between their first in 2007, and most recent in 2011.

During those years the Cats also lost another grand final in 2008, while both Hawthorn and Brisbane were defeated in grand finals prior to and after their respective hat-tricks.

Given the similarities between the success of the three sides and how comparatively recent that success was, it is only natural that comparisons between them will be made, and the inevitable question of who is the best will be asked.

Comparing the three teams may be a fruitless exercise. One that will no doubt be the cause of many an argument over the coming years, as indisputable evidence is brought forth to back up or refute any given opinion. Particularly by supporters of the three teams involved.

Being a supporter of none of these teams and with equal admiration for them all, it is difficult to split the three as they all were, or in the case of Hawthorn are, magnificent sides.

Games records
Total points scored by the three over their most successful five consecutive seasons shows just how close they are. Between 2000 and 2004 Brisbane scored 14,058 points, while Geelong amassed 14,217 from 2007 to 2011, and Hawthorn 14,054 from 2011 to 2015.

Over each club’s respective five-year period they each played 110 home-and-away games. Brisbane won 76 of theirs, giving them a winning percentage of 69 per cent. Geelong won 93 at 84.5 per cent, and Hawthorn 87 at 79 per cent.

Both Brisbane and Geelong have a win rate of 80 per cent in finals, winning 12 of their 15 post-season appearances, while Hawthorn have played 16, for 12 wins at 75 per cent.

This gives Brisbane a total winning percentage of 70.4 per cent from 125 games, Geelong 84 per cent from the same amount of appearances, and Hawthorn 78.5 per cent from 126 matches.

Depending on how much emphasis one places on the home-and-away season, it could easily be argued the Geelong has by far the best overall record, so therefore is the superior side.

However there would be few neutral supporters who could recall who won the minor premiership in any given year. Team success in the AFL is ultimately gained by how far any team progresses in September.

Many consider the home-and-away season just a prelude to finals, and in terms of post-season success very little separates the three sides.

They have all won 12 finals – albeit the Hawks from one more appearance. Geelong and Hawthorn also both made it through to preliminary finals in the one season they did not play in a grand final, while Brisbane lost a semi-final in the only year they did not make it to last Saturday in September.

Key statistics
From a statistical perspective Geelong are the best performed side, ranking in the top three in each of the key statistical areas over their five seasons. The Cats were ranked first in handballs, disposals, contested possessions and disposal efficiency. Second in kicks and clearances, and third in tackles and marks.

Brisbane were ranked in the top three of all but one category over their five-year period. The Lions were ranked first in handballs, disposals, contested possession and clearances, second in kicks and third in marks and tackles.

Over the last five years Hawthorn has only been ranked first in two categories – total disposals and disposal efficiency. The Hawks have been ranked first in efficiency in four campaigns of their five-season period, and second in the other, however they ranked poorly compared to the other two sides in contested possession, clearances and tackles.

While any comparison cannot be made on statistics alone, they do provide somewhat of a guide to each side’s strengths and weaknesses. A cursory glance suggests both Brisbane and Geelong relied heavily on contested possession and winning clearances, while Hawthorn’s greatest strength is their efficiency with the ball.

Individual player honours
Given the three sides’ dominance in each of their respective periods of success, it is to be expected that a number of players within each side would earn individual honours.

Between them the Lions, Cats and Hawks have had 58 players selected in All-Australian sides during their respective five-year periods. Geelong is the most represented with 28, followed by Brisbane 17 and Hawthorn 13.

Gary Ablett Jr, Corey Enright and Matthew Scarlett from Geelong, and Brisbane’s Nigel Lappin were each selected four times, while another five players made the All-Australian side three times. Three of those came from Brisbane, and one each from Geelong and Hawthorn.

Both Brisbane and Geelong had two Brownlow Medallists each. For the Lions, Jason Akermanis won in 2001, with Simon Black emulating him the following year. Geelong’s Jimmy Bartel and Gary Ablett Jr took the award home in 2007 and 2009 respectively.

Overall Geelong polled 511 Brownlow votes over their five seasons. Brisbane were next with 461, just ahead of Hawthorn with 460.

Gary Ablett Jr was also named the AFL Players’ Association MVP three times in 2007, 2008 and 2009. Brisbane Captain Michael Voss won the award in 2002 and 2003.

Although not producing either a Brownlow Medallist or AFLPA MVP over the last five years, Hawthorn are the only side of the three to have a Coleman Medallist – and have done so twice. Lance Franklin in 2011 and Jarryd Roughead in 2013.

The Hawks have also had three Norm Smith Medallists. Brian Lake in 2013, Luke Hodge 2014, and Cyril Rioli this year. As do Geelong with Steve Johnson winning in 2007, Jimmy Bartel in 2009, and Paul Chapman in 2011. Brisbane only had two medallists – Shaun Hart in 2001 and Simon Black in 2003.

Opposition
Ranking the opposition of each team is as conjectural as comparing the three to each other, and would probably cause just as much debate. However looking at each side’s grand final opponents on paper, it could be argued the Lions won theirs against slightly lesser quality sides than Hawthorn and Geelong.

Brisbane defeated defending premiers Essendon in 2001, before consecutive wins against Collingwood in the 2002 and 2003 deciders. The following season they lost to Port Adelaide, and have only played in one finals series since – finishing sixth in 2009.

Geelong’s first premiership in 2007 was also against Port Adelaide. This was followed by a loss to Hawthorn in the 2008 grand final, and another premiership against St Kilda in 2009. In 2011 the Cats collected their third against Collingwood, who had beaten the Saints in 2010.

After narrowly losing to Collingwood in a preliminary final in 2011, Hawthorn were defeated by Sydney in the 2012 decider, before defeating Fremantle in 2013 to claim the first of their three premierships.

In 2013 they reversed the result of two years previously by easily defeating the Swans, followed by this season’s comfortable win over West Coast.

Brisbane’s first grand final win over Essendon was against quality opposition. The Bombers were defending premiers, and had easily been the best performed team over the three previous seasons. The loss to the Lions in the decider was only their fourth during that time.

Their next two premierships in 2002 and 2003 were against Collingwood sides that could legitimately be called solid at best. Although the side included some very good players such as Chris Tarrant, Alan Didak and Scott Burns, the only bonafide A-grader in the team was skipper Nathan Buckley.

The Lions’ fourth grand final appearance was a 40-point loss to Port Adelaide. After finishing in third place in 2001, the Power had finished the home-and-away season on top of the ladder in 2002, 2003 and 2004. This was to be Port Adelaide’s first, and so far only premiership.

The first of Geelong’s four premierships in 2007 was also against Port Adelaide, although the side was not of the same calibre as the 2004 premiers. After narrowly defeating Collingwood by five points in their preliminary final, the Cats went on to defeat Port by a record 119 points.

In 2008 Geelong went into the grand final as firm favourites against Hawthorn after winning all but one game during the season, only to go down by 26 points in front of the first 100,000-plus crowd since 1986.

On an aside (and because it involves two of the teams in discussion), this was the match that instigated the infamous ‘Kennett’s Curse’, named after former Victorian Premier and Hawthorn president at the time Jeff Kennett.

In the lead-up to the 2009 season Kennett publicly questioned Geelong’s ability to match it mentally with the Hawks.

“What they don’t have, I think, is the quality of some of our players; they don’t have the psychological drive we have,” he said.

“We’ve beaten Geelong when it matters.”

It is history now that the Geelong players made a pact to never be beaten by Hawthorn again, and lived up to it at least for a while, winning the next 11 meetings between the two sides. It was not until the 2013 preliminary final that the curse was finally lifted.

In 2009 Geelong appeared in their third consecutive grand final against St Kilda in what many consider to be one of the great grand finals of recent times. In a hard fought and skilful contest, Geelong won by 12 points.

The following year Geelong lost a preliminary final to Collingwood, who went on to defeat St Kilda in a replay after the first grand final ended in a draw.

In 2011, Geelong went into their fourth decider in five years against a Collingwood side that had finished on top of the home-and-away ladder after dropping only two games throughout the season – both to the Cats. After a tight first three quarters, Geelong kicked away in the last to win by 38 points.

After narrowly losing a preliminary final to Collingwood the previous year, Hawthorn went into the 2012 grand final as favourites against Sydney. However, just as the Hawks did to Geelong in 2008, the Swans won in a 10-point upset.

The following year Hawthorn finished the season on top of the ladder, and met third placed Fremantle in the grand final. It was the Dockers’ first appearance at the MCG in the final game of the season, and although they acquitted themselves well, they didn’t make the most of their opportunities, with the Hawks taking out the first of three consecutive premierships by 15 points.

The Hawks finished the 2014 season second behind Sydney on percentage, and the two went on to meet in the decider for the second time in three seasons. This time the Swans went into the game as favourites, but had unfortunately saved their worst game of the year for the grand final, and were soundly beaten by 63 points.

After being touted as almost unbeatable at times throughout 2015, and written off to a degree at others, Hawthorn cemented their place in football history with a comfortable 46-point victory over West Coast, to claim their third consecutive flag.

As was mentioned above, of the three sides Brisbane arguably had the easiest opposition. While both Essendon and Port were very good teams, the Collingwood sides of 2002 and 2003 was not of the same quality as the 2010-2011 Magpies.

Geelong’s first win against Port Adelaide was by a record margin, and although the side contained some great players, the majority of those were either in their final years or just starting out.

Although Hawthorn won the 2014 grand final easily, it was against a very good side that just happened to have a very poor day. However, their win this season was against a young and up-and-coming team in West Coast, who appeared overawed by the occasion, unable to compete equally with such a seasoned side.

Verdict
Despite being the only one of the sides not to win their three premierships in succession, at least on paper the Cats come out on top.

Although the three sides’ finals records cannot be split, Geelong’s overall win rate of 84 per cent over their five seasons is far better than that of either Hawthorn (78.5%), or Brisbane (70.4%).

The Cats had the best of both the Lions and Hawks in the key statistical areas, while also having the most All-Australian representatives with 28, compared to 17 for the Lions, and 13 for the Hawks.

Geelong also polled the most Brownlow votes, collecting 511 over their five seasons, 50 more than Brisbane who claimed 461, while Hawthorn had 460.

Arguments about the quality of each team’s respective opposition will always be made. However going by the conclusions drawn above, the teams the Cats faced from 2007 to 2011 were at least the equal of, if not better than that of the Lions or Hawks in their successful eras.

While it is impossible to truly compare the three given there are so many variables involved, speculation on which side is the best will continue for some time. Unless of course Hawthorn win the next one or two premierships to firmly settle the debate once and for all.

But but Cameron Ling and Tom Harley disagree with you.

So on that basis I award you no points....unlucky, you just wasted half of your life on useless research that was ultimately superseded by your past two premiership captains from said dynasty....Don't you hate that

 

[Hawkk]

Hang on why is 2011 in your dynasty ? when you didn't make the GF and got belted in a prelim in 2010? Under your logic its Geelong 2007-2009, Brisbane 2001-2004 & Hawthorn 2012-2015.

5 years between 2007 and 2011, 6 years between 2008 and 2013 and yet 2007 is relevent to 2011 (with a seperate captain and coach) but 2008 is too far removed from 2013 (at least we had the same coach FFS)

Geelong logic

 

[Tyler Hodges]

Hawthorn’s 46-point demolition of West Coast in the 2015 grand final gave them their third premiership in as many years, joining Brisbane as the only two sides to have achieved the feat this century.

Between the Lion’s third premiership in 2003 and Hawthorn’s first in 2013, Geelong also won three premierships. Although theirs were not consecutive, taking five seasons to complete between their first in 2007, and most recent in 2011.

During those years the Cats also lost another grand final in 2008, while both Hawthorn and Brisbane were defeated in grand finals prior to and after their respective hat-tricks.

Given the similarities between the success of the three sides and how comparatively recent that success was, it is only natural that comparisons between them will be made, and the inevitable question of who is the best will be asked.

Comparing the three teams may be a fruitless exercise. One that will no doubt be the cause of many an argument over the coming years, as indisputable evidence is brought forth to back up or refute any given opinion. Particularly by supporters of the three teams involved.

Being a supporter of none of these teams and with equal admiration for them all, it is difficult to split the three as they all were, or in the case of Hawthorn are, magnificent sides.

Games records
Total points scored by the three over their most successful five consecutive seasons shows just how close they are. Between 2000 and 2004 Brisbane scored 14,058 points, while Geelong amassed 14,217 from 2007 to 2011, and Hawthorn 14,054 from 2011 to 2015.

Over each club’s respective five-year period they each played 110 home-and-away games. Brisbane won 76 of theirs, giving them a winning percentage of 69 per cent. Geelong won 93 at 84.5 per cent, and Hawthorn 87 at 79 per cent.

Both Brisbane and Geelong have a win rate of 80 per cent in finals, winning 12 of their 15 post-season appearances, while Hawthorn have played 16, for 12 wins at 75 per cent.

This gives Brisbane a total winning percentage of 70.4 per cent from 125 games, Geelong 84 per cent from the same amount of appearances, and Hawthorn 78.5 per cent from 126 matches.

Depending on how much emphasis one places on the home-and-away season, it could easily be argued the Geelong has by far the best overall record, so therefore is the superior side.

However there would be few neutral supporters who could recall who won the minor premiership in any given year. Team success in the AFL is ultimately gained by how far any team progresses in September.

Many consider the home-and-away season just a prelude to finals, and in terms of post-season success very little separates the three sides.

They have all won 12 finals – albeit the Hawks from one more appearance. Geelong and Hawthorn also both made it through to preliminary finals in the one season they did not play in a grand final, while Brisbane lost a semi-final in the only year they did not make it to last Saturday in September.

Key statistics
From a statistical perspective Geelong are the best performed side, ranking in the top three in each of the key statistical areas over their five seasons. The Cats were ranked first in handballs, disposals, contested possessions and disposal efficiency. Second in kicks and clearances, and third in tackles and marks.

Brisbane were ranked in the top three of all but one category over their five-year period. The Lions were ranked first in handballs, disposals, contested possession and clearances, second in kicks and third in marks and tackles.

Over the last five years Hawthorn has only been ranked first in two categories – total disposals and disposal efficiency. The Hawks have been ranked first in efficiency in four campaigns of their five-season period, and second in the other, however they ranked poorly compared to the other two sides in contested possession, clearances and tackles.

While any comparison cannot be made on statistics alone, they do provide somewhat of a guide to each side’s strengths and weaknesses. A cursory glance suggests both Brisbane and Geelong relied heavily on contested possession and winning clearances, while Hawthorn’s greatest strength is their efficiency with the ball.

Individual player honours
Given the three sides’ dominance in each of their respective periods of success, it is to be expected that a number of players within each side would earn individual honours.

Between them the Lions, Cats and Hawks have had 58 players selected in All-Australian sides during their respective five-year periods. Geelong is the most represented with 28, followed by Brisbane 17 and Hawthorn 13.

Gary Ablett Jr, Corey Enright and Matthew Scarlett from Geelong, and Brisbane’s Nigel Lappin were each selected four times, while another five players made the All-Australian side three times. Three of those came from Brisbane, and one each from Geelong and Hawthorn.

Both Brisbane and Geelong had two Brownlow Medallists each. For the Lions, Jason Akermanis won in 2001, with Simon Black emulating him the following year. Geelong’s Jimmy Bartel and Gary Ablett Jr took the award home in 2007 and 2009 respectively.

Overall Geelong polled 511 Brownlow votes over their five seasons. Brisbane were next with 461, just ahead of Hawthorn with 460.

Gary Ablett Jr was also named the AFL Players’ Association MVP three times in 2007, 2008 and 2009. Brisbane Captain Michael Voss won the award in 2002 and 2003.

Although not producing either a Brownlow Medallist or AFLPA MVP over the last five years, Hawthorn are the only side of the three to have a Coleman Medallist – and have done so twice. Lance Franklin in 2011 and Jarryd Roughead in 2013.

The Hawks have also had three Norm Smith Medallists. Brian Lake in 2013, Luke Hodge 2014, and Cyril Rioli this year. As do Geelong with Steve Johnson winning in 2007, Jimmy Bartel in 2009, and Paul Chapman in 2011. Brisbane only had two medallists – Shaun Hart in 2001 and Simon Black in 2003.

Opposition
Ranking the opposition of each team is as conjectural as comparing the three to each other, and would probably cause just as much debate. However looking at each side’s grand final opponents on paper, it could be argued the Lions won theirs against slightly lesser quality sides than Hawthorn and Geelong.

Brisbane defeated defending premiers Essendon in 2001, before consecutive wins against Collingwood in the 2002 and 2003 deciders. The following season they lost to Port Adelaide, and have only played in one finals series since – finishing sixth in 2009.

Geelong’s first premiership in 2007 was also against Port Adelaide. This was followed by a loss to Hawthorn in the 2008 grand final, and another premiership against St Kilda in 2009. In 2011 the Cats collected their third against Collingwood, who had beaten the Saints in 2010.

After narrowly losing to Collingwood in a preliminary final in 2011, Hawthorn were defeated by Sydney in the 2012 decider, before defeating Fremantle in 2013 to claim the first of their three premierships.

In 2013 they reversed the result of two years previously by easily defeating the Swans, followed by this season’s comfortable win over West Coast.

Brisbane’s first grand final win over Essendon was against quality opposition. The Bombers were defending premiers, and had easily been the best performed team over the three previous seasons. The loss to the Lions in the decider was only their fourth during that time.

Their next two premierships in 2002 and 2003 were against Collingwood sides that could legitimately be called solid at best. Although the side included some very good players such as Chris Tarrant, Alan Didak and Scott Burns, the only bonafide A-grader in the team was skipper Nathan Buckley.

The Lions’ fourth grand final appearance was a 40-point loss to Port Adelaide. After finishing in third place in 2001, the Power had finished the home-and-away season on top of the ladder in 2002, 2003 and 2004. This was to be Port Adelaide’s first, and so far only premiership.

The first of Geelong’s four premierships in 2007 was also against Port Adelaide, although the side was not of the same calibre as the 2004 premiers. After narrowly defeating Collingwood by five points in their preliminary final, the Cats went on to defeat Port by a record 119 points.

In 2008 Geelong went into the grand final as firm favourites against Hawthorn after winning all but one game during the season, only to go down by 26 points in front of the first 100,000-plus crowd since 1986.

On an aside (and because it involves two of the teams in discussion), this was the match that instigated the infamous ‘Kennett’s Curse’, named after former Victorian Premier and Hawthorn president at the time Jeff Kennett.

In the lead-up to the 2009 season Kennett publicly questioned Geelong’s ability to match it mentally with the Hawks.

“What they don’t have, I think, is the quality of some of our players; they don’t have the psychological drive we have,” he said.

“We’ve beaten Geelong when it matters.”

It is history now that the Geelong players made a pact to never be beaten by Hawthorn again, and lived up to it at least for a while, winning the next 11 meetings between the two sides. It was not until the 2013 preliminary final that the curse was finally lifted.

In 2009 Geelong appeared in their third consecutive grand final against St Kilda in what many consider to be one of the great grand finals of recent times. In a hard fought and skilful contest, Geelong won by 12 points.

The following year Geelong lost a preliminary final to Collingwood, who went on to defeat St Kilda in a replay after the first grand final ended in a draw.

In 2011, Geelong went into their fourth decider in five years against a Collingwood side that had finished on top of the home-and-away ladder after dropping only two games throughout the season – both to the Cats. After a tight first three quarters, Geelong kicked away in the last to win by 38 points.

After narrowly losing a preliminary final to Collingwood the previous year, Hawthorn went into the 2012 grand final as favourites against Sydney. However, just as the Hawks did to Geelong in 2008, the Swans won in a 10-point upset.

The following year Hawthorn finished the season on top of the ladder, and met third placed Fremantle in the grand final. It was the Dockers’ first appearance at the MCG in the final game of the season, and although they acquitted themselves well, they didn’t make the most of their opportunities, with the Hawks taking out the first of three consecutive premierships by 15 points.

The Hawks finished the 2014 season second behind Sydney on percentage, and the two went on to meet in the decider for the second time in three seasons. This time the Swans went into the game as favourites, but had unfortunately saved their worst game of the year for the grand final, and were soundly beaten by 63 points.

After being touted as almost unbeatable at times throughout 2015, and written off to a degree at others, Hawthorn cemented their place in football history with a comfortable 46-point victory over West Coast, to claim their third consecutive flag.

As was mentioned above, of the three sides Brisbane arguably had the easiest opposition. While both Essendon and Port were very good teams, the Collingwood sides of 2002 and 2003 was not of the same quality as the 2010-2011 Magpies.

Geelong’s first win against Port Adelaide was by a record margin, and although the side contained some great players, the majority of those were either in their final years or just starting out.

Although Hawthorn won the 2014 grand final easily, it was against a very good side that just happened to have a very poor day. However, their win this season was against a young and up-and-coming team in West Coast, who appeared overawed by the occasion, unable to compete equally with such a seasoned side.

Verdict
Despite being the only one of the sides not to win their three premierships in succession, at least on paper the Cats come out on top.

Although the three sides’ finals records cannot be split, Geelong’s overall win rate of 84 per cent over their five seasons is far better than that of either Hawthorn (78.5%), or Brisbane (70.4%).

The Cats had the best of both the Lions and Hawks in the key statistical areas, while also having the most All-Australian representatives with 28, compared to 17 for the Lions, and 13 for the Hawks.

Geelong also polled the most Brownlow votes, collecting 511 over their five seasons, 50 more than Brisbane who claimed 461, while Hawthorn had 460.

Arguments about the quality of each team’s respective opposition will always be made. However going by the conclusions drawn above, the teams the Cats faced from 2007 to 2011 were at least the equal of, if not better than that of the Lions or Hawks in their successful eras.

While it is impossible to truly compare the three given there are so many variables involved, speculation on which side is the best will continue for some time. Unless of course Hawthorn win the next one or two premierships to firmly settle the debate once and for all.

Cool story needs more dragons

 

[Lithium]

Dynasty - a sequence of rulers from the same family, stock, or group:

Strictly speaking, in order for a team to have had a dynasty, premierships must be won consecutively.
While what Geelong did was a great achievement, they never actually had a 'dynasty' and there for should not be part of this debate.

 

[STFU Donnie]

Hawthorn’s 46-point demolition of West Coast in the 2015 grand final gave them their third premiership in as many years, joining Brisbane as the only two sides to have achieved the feat this century.

Between the Lion’s third premiership in 2003 and Hawthorn’s first in 2013, Geelong also won three premierships. Although theirs were not consecutive, taking five seasons to complete between their first in 2007, and most recent in 2011.

During those years the Cats also lost another grand final in 2008, while both Hawthorn and Brisbane were defeated in grand finals prior to and after their respective hat-tricks.

Given the similarities between the success of the three sides and how comparatively recent that success was, it is only natural that comparisons between them will be made, and the inevitable question of who is the best will be asked.

Comparing the three teams may be a fruitless exercise. One that will no doubt be the cause of many an argument over the coming years, as indisputable evidence is brought forth to back up or refute any given opinion. Particularly by supporters of the three teams involved.

Being a supporter of none of these teams and with equal admiration for them all, it is difficult to split the three as they all were, or in the case of Hawthorn are, magnificent sides.

Games records
Total points scored by the three over their most successful five consecutive seasons shows just how close they are. Between 2000 and 2004 Brisbane scored 14,058 points, while Geelong amassed 14,217 from 2007 to 2011, and Hawthorn 14,054 from 2011 to 2015.

Over each club’s respective five-year period they each played 110 home-and-away games. Brisbane won 76 of theirs, giving them a winning percentage of 69 per cent. Geelong won 93 at 84.5 per cent, and Hawthorn 87 at 79 per cent.

Both Brisbane and Geelong have a win rate of 80 per cent in finals, winning 12 of their 15 post-season appearances, while Hawthorn have played 16, for 12 wins at 75 per cent.

This gives Brisbane a total winning percentage of 70.4 per cent from 125 games, Geelong 84 per cent from the same amount of appearances, and Hawthorn 78.5 per cent from 126 matches.

Depending on how much emphasis one places on the home-and-away season, it could easily be argued the Geelong has by far the best overall record, so therefore is the superior side.

However there would be few neutral supporters who could recall who won the minor premiership in any given year. Team success in the AFL is ultimately gained by how far any team progresses in September.

Many consider the home-and-away season just a prelude to finals, and in terms of post-season success very little separates the three sides.

They have all won 12 finals – albeit the Hawks from one more appearance. Geelong and Hawthorn also both made it through to preliminary finals in the one season they did not play in a grand final, while Brisbane lost a semi-final in the only year they did not make it to last Saturday in September.

Key statistics
From a statistical perspective Geelong are the best performed side, ranking in the top three in each of the key statistical areas over their five seasons. The Cats were ranked first in handballs, disposals, contested possessions and disposal efficiency. Second in kicks and clearances, and third in tackles and marks.

Brisbane were ranked in the top three of all but one category over their five-year period. The Lions were ranked first in handballs, disposals, contested possession and clearances, second in kicks and third in marks and tackles.

Over the last five years Hawthorn has only been ranked first in two categories – total disposals and disposal efficiency. The Hawks have been ranked first in efficiency in four campaigns of their five-season period, and second in the other, however they ranked poorly compared to the other two sides in contested possession, clearances and tackles.

While any comparison cannot be made on statistics alone, they do provide somewhat of a guide to each side’s strengths and weaknesses. A cursory glance suggests both Brisbane and Geelong relied heavily on contested possession and winning clearances, while Hawthorn’s greatest strength is their efficiency with the ball.

Individual player honours
Given the three sides’ dominance in each of their respective periods of success, it is to be expected that a number of players within each side would earn individual honours.

Between them the Lions, Cats and Hawks have had 58 players selected in All-Australian sides during their respective five-year periods. Geelong is the most represented with 28, followed by Brisbane 17 and Hawthorn 13.

Gary Ablett Jr, Corey Enright and Matthew Scarlett from Geelong, and Brisbane’s Nigel Lappin were each selected four times, while another five players made the All-Australian side three times. Three of those came from Brisbane, and one each from Geelong and Hawthorn.

Both Brisbane and Geelong had two Brownlow Medallists each. For the Lions, Jason Akermanis won in 2001, with Simon Black emulating him the following year. Geelong’s Jimmy Bartel and Gary Ablett Jr took the award home in 2007 and 2009 respectively.

Overall Geelong polled 511 Brownlow votes over their five seasons. Brisbane were next with 461, just ahead of Hawthorn with 460.

Gary Ablett Jr was also named the AFL Players’ Association MVP three times in 2007, 2008 and 2009. Brisbane Captain Michael Voss won the award in 2002 and 2003.

Although not producing either a Brownlow Medallist or AFLPA MVP over the last five years, Hawthorn are the only side of the three to have a Coleman Medallist – and have done so twice. Lance Franklin in 2011 and Jarryd Roughead in 2013.

The Hawks have also had three Norm Smith Medallists. Brian Lake in 2013, Luke Hodge 2014, and Cyril Rioli this year. As do Geelong with Steve Johnson winning in 2007, Jimmy Bartel in 2009, and Paul Chapman in 2011. Brisbane only had two medallists – Shaun Hart in 2001 and Simon Black in 2003.

Opposition
Ranking the opposition of each team is as conjectural as comparing the three to each other, and would probably cause just as much debate. However looking at each side’s grand final opponents on paper, it could be argued the Lions won theirs against slightly lesser quality sides than Hawthorn and Geelong.

Brisbane defeated defending premiers Essendon in 2001, before consecutive wins against Collingwood in the 2002 and 2003 deciders. The following season they lost to Port Adelaide, and have only played in one finals series since – finishing sixth in 2009.

Geelong’s first premiership in 2007 was also against Port Adelaide. This was followed by a loss to Hawthorn in the 2008 grand final, and another premiership against St Kilda in 2009. In 2011 the Cats collected their third against Collingwood, who had beaten the Saints in 2010.

After narrowly losing to Collingwood in a preliminary final in 2011, Hawthorn were defeated by Sydney in the 2012 decider, before defeating Fremantle in 2013 to claim the first of their three premierships.

In 2013 they reversed the result of two years previously by easily defeating the Swans, followed by this season’s comfortable win over West Coast.

Brisbane’s first grand final win over Essendon was against quality opposition. The Bombers were defending premiers, and had easily been the best performed team over the three previous seasons. The loss to the Lions in the decider was only their fourth during that time.

Their next two premierships in 2002 and 2003 were against Collingwood sides that could legitimately be called solid at best. Although the side included some very good players such as Chris Tarrant, Alan Didak and Scott Burns, the only bonafide A-grader in the team was skipper Nathan Buckley.

The Lions’ fourth grand final appearance was a 40-point loss to Port Adelaide. After finishing in third place in 2001, the Power had finished the home-and-away season on top of the ladder in 2002, 2003 and 2004. This was to be Port Adelaide’s first, and so far only premiership.

The first of Geelong’s four premierships in 2007 was also against Port Adelaide, although the side was not of the same calibre as the 2004 premiers. After narrowly defeating Collingwood by five points in their preliminary final, the Cats went on to defeat Port by a record 119 points.

In 2008 Geelong went into the grand final as firm favourites against Hawthorn after winning all but one game during the season, only to go down by 26 points in front of the first 100,000-plus crowd since 1986.

On an aside (and because it involves two of the teams in discussion), this was the match that instigated the infamous ‘Kennett’s Curse’, named after former Victorian Premier and Hawthorn president at the time Jeff Kennett.

In the lead-up to the 2009 season Kennett publicly questioned Geelong’s ability to match it mentally with the Hawks.

“What they don’t have, I think, is the quality of some of our players; they don’t have the psychological drive we have,” he said.

“We’ve beaten Geelong when it matters.”

It is history now that the Geelong players made a pact to never be beaten by Hawthorn again, and lived up to it at least for a while, winning the next 11 meetings between the two sides. It was not until the 2013 preliminary final that the curse was finally lifted.

In 2009 Geelong appeared in their third consecutive grand final against St Kilda in what many consider to be one of the great grand finals of recent times. In a hard fought and skilful contest, Geelong won by 12 points.

The following year Geelong lost a preliminary final to Collingwood, who went on to defeat St Kilda in a replay after the first grand final ended in a draw.

In 2011, Geelong went into their fourth decider in five years against a Collingwood side that had finished on top of the home-and-away ladder after dropping only two games throughout the season – both to the Cats. After a tight first three quarters, Geelong kicked away in the last to win by 38 points.

After narrowly losing a preliminary final to Collingwood the previous year, Hawthorn went into the 2012 grand final as favourites against Sydney. However, just as the Hawks did to Geelong in 2008, the Swans won in a 10-point upset.

The following year Hawthorn finished the season on top of the ladder, and met third placed Fremantle in the grand final. It was the Dockers’ first appearance at the MCG in the final game of the season, and although they acquitted themselves well, they didn’t make the most of their opportunities, with the Hawks taking out the first of three consecutive premierships by 15 points.

The Hawks finished the 2014 season second behind Sydney on percentage, and the two went on to meet in the decider for the second time in three seasons. This time the Swans went into the game as favourites, but had unfortunately saved their worst game of the year for the grand final, and were soundly beaten by 63 points.

After being touted as almost unbeatable at times throughout 2015, and written off to a degree at others, Hawthorn cemented their place in football history with a comfortable 46-point victory over West Coast, to claim their third consecutive flag.

As was mentioned above, of the three sides Brisbane arguably had the easiest opposition. While both Essendon and Port were very good teams, the Collingwood sides of 2002 and 2003 was not of the same quality as the 2010-2011 Magpies.

Geelong’s first win against Port Adelaide was by a record margin, and although the side contained some great players, the majority of those were either in their final years or just starting out.

Although Hawthorn won the 2014 grand final easily, it was against a very good side that just happened to have a very poor day. However, their win this season was against a young and up-and-coming team in West Coast, who appeared overawed by the occasion, unable to compete equally with such a seasoned side.

Verdict
Despite being the only one of the sides not to win their three premierships in succession, at least on paper the Cats come out on top.

Although the three sides’ finals records cannot be split, Geelong’s overall win rate of 84 per cent over their five seasons is far better than that of either Hawthorn (78.5%), or Brisbane (70.4%).

The Cats had the best of both the Lions and Hawks in the key statistical areas, while also having the most All-Australian representatives with 28, compared to 17 for the Lions, and 13 for the Hawks.

Geelong also polled the most Brownlow votes, collecting 511 over their five seasons, 50 more than Brisbane who claimed 461, while Hawthorn had 460.

Arguments about the quality of each team’s respective opposition will always be made. However going by the conclusions drawn above, the teams the Cats faced from 2007 to 2011 were at least the equal of, if not better than that of the Lions or Hawks in their successful eras.

While it is impossible to truly compare the three given there are so many variables involved, speculation on which side is the best will continue for some time. Unless of course Hawthorn win the next one or two premierships to firmly settle the debate once and for all.

Such a lot of effort. Pity it's all utterly futile.

Back.

To Back.

To Back.

 

[Beauiehawk]

Hawthorn’s 46-point demolition of West Coast in the 2015 grand final gave them their third premiership in as many years, joining Brisbane as the only two sides to have achieved the feat this century.

Between the Lion’s third premiership in 2003 and Hawthorn’s first in 2013, Geelong also won three premierships. Although theirs were not consecutive, taking five seasons to complete between their first in 2007, and most recent in 2011.

During those years the Cats also lost another grand final in 2008, while both Hawthorn and Brisbane were defeated in grand finals prior to and after their respective hat-tricks.

Given the similarities between the success of the three sides and how comparatively recent that success was, it is only natural that comparisons between them will be made, and the inevitable question of who is the best will be asked.

Comparing the three teams may be a fruitless exercise. One that will no doubt be the cause of many an argument over the coming years, as indisputable evidence is brought forth to back up or refute any given opinion. Particularly by supporters of the three teams involved.

Being a supporter of none of these teams and with equal admiration for them all, it is difficult to split the three as they all were, or in the case of Hawthorn are, magnificent sides.

Games records
Total points scored by the three over their most successful five consecutive seasons shows just how close they are. Between 2000 and 2004 Brisbane scored 14,058 points, while Geelong amassed 14,217 from 2007 to 2011, and Hawthorn 14,054 from 2011 to 2015.

Over each club’s respective five-year period they each played 110 home-and-away games. Brisbane won 76 of theirs, giving them a winning percentage of 69 per cent. Geelong won 93 at 84.5 per cent, and Hawthorn 87 at 79 per cent.

Both Brisbane and Geelong have a win rate of 80 per cent in finals, winning 12 of their 15 post-season appearances, while Hawthorn have played 16, for 12 wins at 75 per cent.

This gives Brisbane a total winning percentage of 70.4 per cent from 125 games, Geelong 84 per cent from the same amount of appearances, and Hawthorn 78.5 per cent from 126 matches.

Depending on how much emphasis one places on the home-and-away season, it could easily be argued the Geelong has by far the best overall record, so therefore is the superior side.

However there would be few neutral supporters who could recall who won the minor premiership in any given year. Team success in the AFL is ultimately gained by how far any team progresses in September.

Many consider the home-and-away season just a prelude to finals, and in terms of post-season success very little separates the three sides.

They have all won 12 finals – albeit the Hawks from one more appearance. Geelong and Hawthorn also both made it through to preliminary finals in the one season they did not play in a grand final, while Brisbane lost a semi-final in the only year they did not make it to last Saturday in September.

Key statistics
From a statistical perspective Geelong are the best performed side, ranking in the top three in each of the key statistical areas over their five seasons. The Cats were ranked first in handballs, disposals, contested possessions and disposal efficiency. Second in kicks and clearances, and third in tackles and marks.

Brisbane were ranked in the top three of all but one category over their five-year period. The Lions were ranked first in handballs, disposals, contested possession and clearances, second in kicks and third in marks and tackles.

Over the last five years Hawthorn has only been ranked first in two categories – total disposals and disposal efficiency. The Hawks have been ranked first in efficiency in four campaigns of their five-season period, and second in the other, however they ranked poorly compared to the other two sides in contested possession, clearances and tackles.

While any comparison cannot be made on statistics alone, they do provide somewhat of a guide to each side’s strengths and weaknesses. A cursory glance suggests both Brisbane and Geelong relied heavily on contested possession and winning clearances, while Hawthorn’s greatest strength is their efficiency with the ball.

Individual player honours
Given the three sides’ dominance in each of their respective periods of success, it is to be expected that a number of players within each side would earn individual honours.

Between them the Lions, Cats and Hawks have had 58 players selected in All-Australian sides during their respective five-year periods. Geelong is the most represented with 28, followed by Brisbane 17 and Hawthorn 13.

Gary Ablett Jr, Corey Enright and Matthew Scarlett from Geelong, and Brisbane’s Nigel Lappin were each selected four times, while another five players made the All-Australian side three times. Three of those came from Brisbane, and one each from Geelong and Hawthorn.

Both Brisbane and Geelong had two Brownlow Medallists each. For the Lions, Jason Akermanis won in 2001, with Simon Black emulating him the following year. Geelong’s Jimmy Bartel and Gary Ablett Jr took the award home in 2007 and 2009 respectively.

Overall Geelong polled 511 Brownlow votes over their five seasons. Brisbane were next with 461, just ahead of Hawthorn with 460.

Gary Ablett Jr was also named the AFL Players’ Association MVP three times in 2007, 2008 and 2009. Brisbane Captain Michael Voss won the award in 2002 and 2003.

Although not producing either a Brownlow Medallist or AFLPA MVP over the last five years, Hawthorn are the only side of the three to have a Coleman Medallist – and have done so twice. Lance Franklin in 2011 and Jarryd Roughead in 2013.

The Hawks have also had three Norm Smith Medallists. Brian Lake in 2013, Luke Hodge 2014, and Cyril Rioli this year. As do Geelong with Steve Johnson winning in 2007, Jimmy Bartel in 2009, and Paul Chapman in 2011. Brisbane only had two medallists – Shaun Hart in 2001 and Simon Black in 2003.

Opposition
Ranking the opposition of each team is as conjectural as comparing the three to each other, and would probably cause just as much debate. However looking at each side’s grand final opponents on paper, it could be argued the Lions won theirs against slightly lesser quality sides than Hawthorn and Geelong.

Brisbane defeated defending premiers Essendon in 2001, before consecutive wins against Collingwood in the 2002 and 2003 deciders. The following season they lost to Port Adelaide, and have only played in one finals series since – finishing sixth in 2009.

Geelong’s first premiership in 2007 was also against Port Adelaide. This was followed by a loss to Hawthorn in the 2008 grand final, and another premiership against St Kilda in 2009. In 2011 the Cats collected their third against Collingwood, who had beaten the Saints in 2010.

After narrowly losing to Collingwood in a preliminary final in 2011, Hawthorn were defeated by Sydney in the 2012 decider, before defeating Fremantle in 2013 to claim the first of their three premierships.

In 2013 they reversed the result of two years previously by easily defeating the Swans, followed by this season’s comfortable win over West Coast.

Brisbane’s first grand final win over Essendon was against quality opposition. The Bombers were defending premiers, and had easily been the best performed team over the three previous seasons. The loss to the Lions in the decider was only their fourth during that time.

Their next two premierships in 2002 and 2003 were against Collingwood sides that could legitimately be called solid at best. Although the side included some very good players such as Chris Tarrant, Alan Didak and Scott Burns, the only bonafide A-grader in the team was skipper Nathan Buckley.

The Lions’ fourth grand final appearance was a 40-point loss to Port Adelaide. After finishing in third place in 2001, the Power had finished the home-and-away season on top of the ladder in 2002, 2003 and 2004. This was to be Port Adelaide’s first, and so far only premiership.

The first of Geelong’s four premierships in 2007 was also against Port Adelaide, although the side was not of the same calibre as the 2004 premiers. After narrowly defeating Collingwood by five points in their preliminary final, the Cats went on to defeat Port by a record 119 points.

In 2008 Geelong went into the grand final as firm favourites against Hawthorn after winning all but one game during the season, only to go down by 26 points in front of the first 100,000-plus crowd since 1986.

On an aside (and because it involves two of the teams in discussion), this was the match that instigated the infamous ‘Kennett’s Curse’, named after former Victorian Premier and Hawthorn president at the time Jeff Kennett.

In the lead-up to the 2009 season Kennett publicly questioned Geelong’s ability to match it mentally with the Hawks.

“What they don’t have, I think, is the quality of some of our players; they don’t have the psychological drive we have,” he said.

“We’ve beaten Geelong when it matters.”

It is history now that the Geelong players made a pact to never be beaten by Hawthorn again, and lived up to it at least for a while, winning the next 11 meetings between the two sides. It was not until the 2013 preliminary final that the curse was finally lifted.

In 2009 Geelong appeared in their third consecutive grand final against St Kilda in what many consider to be one of the great grand finals of recent times. In a hard fought and skilful contest, Geelong won by 12 points.

The following year Geelong lost a preliminary final to Collingwood, who went on to defeat St Kilda in a replay after the first grand final ended in a draw.

In 2011, Geelong went into their fourth decider in five years against a Collingwood side that had finished on top of the home-and-away ladder after dropping only two games throughout the season – both to the Cats. After a tight first three quarters, Geelong kicked away in the last to win by 38 points.

After narrowly losing a preliminary final to Collingwood the previous year, Hawthorn went into the 2012 grand final as favourites against Sydney. However, just as the Hawks did to Geelong in 2008, the Swans won in a 10-point upset.

The following year Hawthorn finished the season on top of the ladder, and met third placed Fremantle in the grand final. It was the Dockers’ first appearance at the MCG in the final game of the season, and although they acquitted themselves well, they didn’t make the most of their opportunities, with the Hawks taking out the first of three consecutive premierships by 15 points.

The Hawks finished the 2014 season second behind Sydney on percentage, and the two went on to meet in the decider for the second time in three seasons. This time the Swans went into the game as favourites, but had unfortunately saved their worst game of the year for the grand final, and were soundly beaten by 63 points.

After being touted as almost unbeatable at times throughout 2015, and written off to a degree at others, Hawthorn cemented their place in football history with a comfortable 46-point victory over West Coast, to claim their third consecutive flag.

As was mentioned above, of the three sides Brisbane arguably had the easiest opposition. While both Essendon and Port were very good teams, the Collingwood sides of 2002 and 2003 was not of the same quality as the 2010-2011 Magpies.

Geelong’s first win against Port Adelaide was by a record margin, and although the side contained some great players, the majority of those were either in their final years or just starting out.

Although Hawthorn won the 2014 grand final easily, it was against a very good side that just happened to have a very poor day. However, their win this season was against a young and up-and-coming team in West Coast, who appeared overawed by the occasion, unable to compete equally with such a seasoned side.

Verdict
Despite being the only one of the sides not to win their three premierships in succession, at least on paper the Cats come out on top.

Although the three sides’ finals records cannot be split, Geelong’s overall win rate of 84 per cent over their five seasons is far better than that of either Hawthorn (78.5%), or Brisbane (70.4%).

The Cats had the best of both the Lions and Hawks in the key statistical areas, while also having the most All-Australian representatives with 28, compared to 17 for the Lions, and 13 for the Hawks.

Geelong also polled the most Brownlow votes, collecting 511 over their five seasons, 50 more than Brisbane who claimed 461, while Hawthorn had 460.

Arguments about the quality of each team’s respective opposition will always be made. However going by the conclusions drawn above, the teams the Cats faced from 2007 to 2011 were at least the equal of, if not better than that of the Lions or Hawks in their successful eras.

While it is impossible to truly compare the three given there are so many variables involved, speculation on which side is the best will continue for some time. Unless of course Hawthorn win the next one or two premierships to firmly settle the debate once and for all.

I think somebody needs to get out of the house a bit more... Seasons over for Christ sake...

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

I think somebody needs to get out of the house a bit more... Seasons over for Christ sake...

I am. I'm getting paid to sit at work on a computer and do nothing.

 

[smeltitdeltit]

Strictly speaking, in order for a team to have had a dynasty, premierships must be won consecutively.
While what Geelong did was a great achievement, they never actually had a 'dynasty' and there for should not be part of this debate.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnddddddddddddd
/Thread

 

[James Colorado]

Hawthorn’s 46-point demolition of West Coast in the 2015 grand final gave them their third premiership in as many years, joining Brisbane as the only two sides to have achieved the feat this century.

Between the Lion’s third premiership in 2003 and Hawthorn’s first in 2013, Geelong also won three premierships. Although theirs were not consecutive, taking five seasons to complete between their first in 2007, and most recent in 2011.

During those years the Cats also lost another grand final in 2008, while both Hawthorn and Brisbane were defeated in grand finals prior to and after their respective hat-tricks.

Given the similarities between the success of the three sides and how comparatively recent that success was, it is only natural that comparisons between them will be made, and the inevitable question of who is the best will be asked.

Comparing the three teams may be a fruitless exercise. One that will no doubt be the cause of many an argument over the coming years, as indisputable evidence is brought forth to back up or refute any given opinion. Particularly by supporters of the three teams involved.

Being a supporter of none of these teams and with equal admiration for them all, it is difficult to split the three as they all were, or in the case of Hawthorn are, magnificent sides.

Games records
Total points scored by the three over their most successful five consecutive seasons shows just how close they are. Between 2000 and 2004 Brisbane scored 14,058 points, while Geelong amassed 14,217 from 2007 to 2011, and Hawthorn 14,054 from 2011 to 2015.

Over each club’s respective five-year period they each played 110 home-and-away games. Brisbane won 76 of theirs, giving them a winning percentage of 69 per cent. Geelong won 93 at 84.5 per cent, and Hawthorn 87 at 79 per cent.

Both Brisbane and Geelong have a win rate of 80 per cent in finals, winning 12 of their 15 post-season appearances, while Hawthorn have played 16, for 12 wins at 75 per cent.

This gives Brisbane a total winning percentage of 70.4 per cent from 125 games, Geelong 84 per cent from the same amount of appearances, and Hawthorn 78.5 per cent from 126 matches.

Depending on how much emphasis one places on the home-and-away season, it could easily be argued the Geelong has by far the best overall record, so therefore is the superior side.

However there would be few neutral supporters who could recall who won the minor premiership in any given year. Team success in the AFL is ultimately gained by how far any team progresses in September.

Many consider the home-and-away season just a prelude to finals, and in terms of post-season success very little separates the three sides.

They have all won 12 finals – albeit the Hawks from one more appearance. Geelong and Hawthorn also both made it through to preliminary finals in the one season they did not play in a grand final, while Brisbane lost a semi-final in the only year they did not make it to last Saturday in September.

Key statistics
From a statistical perspective Geelong are the best performed side, ranking in the top three in each of the key statistical areas over their five seasons. The Cats were ranked first in handballs, disposals, contested possessions and disposal efficiency. Second in kicks and clearances, and third in tackles and marks.

Brisbane were ranked in the top three of all but one category over their five-year period. The Lions were ranked first in handballs, disposals, contested possession and clearances, second in kicks and third in marks and tackles.

Over the last five years Hawthorn has only been ranked first in two categories – total disposals and disposal efficiency. The Hawks have been ranked first in efficiency in four campaigns of their five-season period, and second in the other, however they ranked poorly compared to the other two sides in contested possession, clearances and tackles.

While any comparison cannot be made on statistics alone, they do provide somewhat of a guide to each side’s strengths and weaknesses. A cursory glance suggests both Brisbane and Geelong relied heavily on contested possession and winning clearances, while Hawthorn’s greatest strength is their efficiency with the ball.

Individual player honours
Given the three sides’ dominance in each of their respective periods of success, it is to be expected that a number of players within each side would earn individual honours.

Between them the Lions, Cats and Hawks have had 58 players selected in All-Australian sides during their respective five-year periods. Geelong is the most represented with 28, followed by Brisbane 17 and Hawthorn 13.

Gary Ablett Jr, Corey Enright and Matthew Scarlett from Geelong, and Brisbane’s Nigel Lappin were each selected four times, while another five players made the All-Australian side three times. Three of those came from Brisbane, and one each from Geelong and Hawthorn.

Both Brisbane and Geelong had two Brownlow Medallists each. For the Lions, Jason Akermanis won in 2001, with Simon Black emulating him the following year. Geelong’s Jimmy Bartel and Gary Ablett Jr took the award home in 2007 and 2009 respectively.

Overall Geelong polled 511 Brownlow votes over their five seasons. Brisbane were next with 461, just ahead of Hawthorn with 460.

Gary Ablett Jr was also named the AFL Players’ Association MVP three times in 2007, 2008 and 2009. Brisbane Captain Michael Voss won the award in 2002 and 2003.

Although not producing either a Brownlow Medallist or AFLPA MVP over the last five years, Hawthorn are the only side of the three to have a Coleman Medallist – and have done so twice. Lance Franklin in 2011 and Jarryd Roughead in 2013.

The Hawks have also had three Norm Smith Medallists. Brian Lake in 2013, Luke Hodge 2014, and Cyril Rioli this year. As do Geelong with Steve Johnson winning in 2007, Jimmy Bartel in 2009, and Paul Chapman in 2011. Brisbane only had two medallists – Shaun Hart in 2001 and Simon Black in 2003.

Opposition
Ranking the opposition of each team is as conjectural as comparing the three to each other, and would probably cause just as much debate. However looking at each side’s grand final opponents on paper, it could be argued the Lions won theirs against slightly lesser quality sides than Hawthorn and Geelong.

Brisbane defeated defending premiers Essendon in 2001, before consecutive wins against Collingwood in the 2002 and 2003 deciders. The following season they lost to Port Adelaide, and have only played in one finals series since – finishing sixth in 2009.

Geelong’s first premiership in 2007 was also against Port Adelaide. This was followed by a loss to Hawthorn in the 2008 grand final, and another premiership against St Kilda in 2009. In 2011 the Cats collected their third against Collingwood, who had beaten the Saints in 2010.

After narrowly losing to Collingwood in a preliminary final in 2011, Hawthorn were defeated by Sydney in the 2012 decider, before defeating Fremantle in 2013 to claim the first of their three premierships.

In 2013 they reversed the result of two years previously by easily defeating the Swans, followed by this season’s comfortable win over West Coast.

Brisbane’s first grand final win over Essendon was against quality opposition. The Bombers were defending premiers, and had easily been the best performed team over the three previous seasons. The loss to the Lions in the decider was only their fourth during that time.

Their next two premierships in 2002 and 2003 were against Collingwood sides that could legitimately be called solid at best. Although the side included some very good players such as Chris Tarrant, Alan Didak and Scott Burns, the only bonafide A-grader in the team was skipper Nathan Buckley.

The Lions’ fourth grand final appearance was a 40-point loss to Port Adelaide. After finishing in third place in 2001, the Power had finished the home-and-away season on top of the ladder in 2002, 2003 and 2004. This was to be Port Adelaide’s first, and so far only premiership.

The first of Geelong’s four premierships in 2007 was also against Port Adelaide, although the side was not of the same calibre as the 2004 premiers. After narrowly defeating Collingwood by five points in their preliminary final, the Cats went on to defeat Port by a record 119 points.

In 2008 Geelong went into the grand final as firm favourites against Hawthorn after winning all but one game during the season, only to go down by 26 points in front of the first 100,000-plus crowd since 1986.

On an aside (and because it involves two of the teams in discussion), this was the match that instigated the infamous ‘Kennett’s Curse’, named after former Victorian Premier and Hawthorn president at the time Jeff Kennett.

In the lead-up to the 2009 season Kennett publicly questioned Geelong’s ability to match it mentally with the Hawks.

“What they don’t have, I think, is the quality of some of our players; they don’t have the psychological drive we have,” he said.

“We’ve beaten Geelong when it matters.”

It is history now that the Geelong players made a pact to never be beaten by Hawthorn again, and lived up to it at least for a while, winning the next 11 meetings between the two sides. It was not until the 2013 preliminary final that the curse was finally lifted.

In 2009 Geelong appeared in their third consecutive grand final against St Kilda in what many consider to be one of the great grand finals of recent times. In a hard fought and skilful contest, Geelong won by 12 points.

The following year Geelong lost a preliminary final to Collingwood, who went on to defeat St Kilda in a replay after the first grand final ended in a draw.

In 2011, Geelong went into their fourth decider in five years against a Collingwood side that had finished on top of the home-and-away ladder after dropping only two games throughout the season – both to the Cats. After a tight first three quarters, Geelong kicked away in the last to win by 38 points.

After narrowly losing a preliminary final to Collingwood the previous year, Hawthorn went into the 2012 grand final as favourites against Sydney. However, just as the Hawks did to Geelong in 2008, the Swans won in a 10-point upset.

The following year Hawthorn finished the season on top of the ladder, and met third placed Fremantle in the grand final. It was the Dockers’ first appearance at the MCG in the final game of the season, and although they acquitted themselves well, they didn’t make the most of their opportunities, with the Hawks taking out the first of three consecutive premierships by 15 points.

The Hawks finished the 2014 season second behind Sydney on percentage, and the two went on to meet in the decider for the second time in three seasons. This time the Swans went into the game as favourites, but had unfortunately saved their worst game of the year for the grand final, and were soundly beaten by 63 points.

After being touted as almost unbeatable at times throughout 2015, and written off to a degree at others, Hawthorn cemented their place in football history with a comfortable 46-point victory over West Coast, to claim their third consecutive flag.

As was mentioned above, of the three sides Brisbane arguably had the easiest opposition. While both Essendon and Port were very good teams, the Collingwood sides of 2002 and 2003 was not of the same quality as the 2010-2011 Magpies.

Geelong’s first win against Port Adelaide was by a record margin, and although the side contained some great players, the majority of those were either in their final years or just starting out.

Although Hawthorn won the 2014 grand final easily, it was against a very good side that just happened to have a very poor day. However, their win this season was against a young and up-and-coming team in West Coast, who appeared overawed by the occasion, unable to compete equally with such a seasoned side.

Verdict
Despite being the only one of the sides not to win their three premierships in succession, at least on paper the Cats come out on top.

Although the three sides’ finals records cannot be split, Geelong’s overall win rate of 84 per cent over their five seasons is far better than that of either Hawthorn (78.5%), or Brisbane (70.4%).

The Cats had the best of both the Lions and Hawks in the key statistical areas, while also having the most All-Australian representatives with 28, compared to 17 for the Lions, and 13 for the Hawks.

Geelong also polled the most Brownlow votes, collecting 511 over their five seasons, 50 more than Brisbane who claimed 461, while Hawthorn had 460.

Arguments about the quality of each team’s respective opposition will always be made. However going by the conclusions drawn above, the teams the Cats faced from 2007 to 2011 were at least the equal of, if not better than that of the Lions or Hawks in their successful eras.

While it is impossible to truly compare the three given there are so many variables involved, speculation on which side is the best will continue for some time. Unless of course Hawthorn win the next one or two premierships to firmly settle the debate once and for all.

Posting another's work without attribution is claiming it as your own. That is plagiarism.

 

[Sttew]

Posting another's work without attribution is claiming it as your own. That is plagiarism.

Not if you are anonymous.

 

[Footy_Fan2007]

Hawthorn have had horrible opponnents in each of their grand finals.

 

[toomanysquibs]

Hawthorn have had horrible opponnents in each of their grand finals.

True. One of them was that Geelong team. We beat them with a team half full of spuds - the three peat GF sides have been far, far better.