List clean out is urgently needed

[The Passenger]

As disappointing has he has been he is our best mid and has won us a few games. Our problems are a dodgy list selected, thats not largely up to AFL footy, that was selectedprior to Kellys arrival and the poor development. Our gameplan is an absolute dud, and a very predictable broken record, not Kellys doing.

I don't think we overpaid for Kelly. Maybe a little bit.

But despite playing reasonably well, he hasn't lived up to what we paid for him. Those saying he has been playing shit since we got him need their eyes checked. But he's played no better than "reasonably well".

Overpaying and under performing are slightly different things but ultimately amount to the same scenario.

And yeah, agreed, there's larger issues at the club than Kelly under performing.

 

[Priddis Is Done]

Drafting this year will be a powder keg.

If the club accepts that we are at 100% rebuilding phase, and as talls take longer to come on.... and it realy pains me to say this... we need to draft talls. JK replacement, backup Gov and a quality young ruckman.

And this flies in the face of what I want. We haven't drafted a decent mid in a very long time. Every year for 10 years there's an excuse. And this year? If not now then when?

Regardless I'm melting hard again come draft day.

 

[Godfather32]

Drafting this year will be a powder keg.

If the club accepts that we are at 100% rebuilding phase, and as talls take longer to come on.... and it realy pains me to say this... we need to draft talls. JK replacement, backup Gov and a quality young ruckman.

And this flies in the face of what I want. We haven't drafted a decent mid in a very long time. Every year for 10 years there's an excuse. And this year? If not now then when?

Regardless I'm melting hard again come draft day.

Wash your mouth out!

 

[Priddis Is Done]

Wash your mouth out!

100%. I almost feel ashamed for writing it.

The list is in such a poor state.

 

[Godfather32]

100%. I almost feel ashamed for writing it.

The list is in such a poor state.

True, we basically need everything

 

[Deplorable trumpster]

If we finish last, can we throw the kitchen sink at getting Jackson from Melbourne through the PSD for free? We would probably have to offer more than his market value in order for him to entertain it. Because you would feel like a bit of a villain and a bandit for leaving via the PSD and your current club getting nothing for you. And where would we get the cap space to make such a move. We would have to push players out whether they want to go or not.

 

[RookiePick]

If we finish last, can we throw the kitchen sink at getting Jackson from Melbourne through the PSD for free? We would probably have to offer more than his market value in order for him to entertain it. Because you would feel like a bit of a villain and a bandit for leaving via the PSD and your current club getting nothing for you. And where would we get the cap space to make such a move. We would have to push players out whether they want to go or not.

Never, ever happening.

Why would Jackson destroy his reputation when he will make bank whatever he decides to do?

 

[The Passenger]

JK replacement, backup Gov and a quality young ruckman.

If I'm plotting out a rough strategy of desired picks over the next two drafts.

2022 First Rounder - Mid (Likely top five)
2022 Seconds Rounders - KPD and Mid
2023 First Rounder - KPF (Almost certainly top five)
2023 Second Rounder - Mid

Obviously that can change if a player you rate slides or the best player in those positions doesn't justify selection that high. Like I said, it's just a bit of a rough strategy.

As you say tall's do take longer so could quite justifiably use a KPF this year and a mid next year in the first round. Either way, those two roles MUST be our preferred premium targets this year and next.

Keep hunting for another ruck in the latter rounds of one of those two drafts and in a few years we'll have some combination of Bailey Williams, Strnadica, Jack Williams and Player X to see if they can became at least a break even ruck. None of those have to become stars, but if one can get to the level of someone like Nathan Vardy or Toby Nankervis that is enough to build a flag tilt around. If one of them does a Cox, Sandi, Gawn and come from lower in the draft to become stars than that is great but that would be very much a bonus.

 

[Bacchus]

Drafting this year will be a powder keg.

If the club accepts that we are at 100% rebuilding phase, and as talls take longer to come on.... and it realy pains me to say this... we need to draft talls. JK replacement, backup Gov and a quality young ruckman.

And this flies in the face of what I want. We haven't drafted a decent mid in a very long time. Every year for 10 years there's an excuse. And this year? If not now then when?

Regardless I'm melting hard again come draft day.

The first pick just has to be a top drawer mid or we will just be chasing our tail forever. No ifs, buts or maybe’s.
And not an u/16 champ who hasn’t played since.

 

[dinnaz]

Whats the timeline for a rebuild like?
2022 Bottom 4
2023 Bottom 4
2024 9-12
2025 Elimination final
2026 Top 4
2027 Top 4
2028 Top 4

 

[The Passenger]

Yeah if we get it right again. 2025 challenging for finals, hopefully get in. 2026 we'd want to be back in for sure.

Genuine flag tilt 2028 at the latest.

We're at the same stage as 2000. The equivalent would be flag push in 2027, but that one probably accelerated a year or two due to Judd. Not realistic to expect us to land a new Judd, but a player like Walsh, Cripps, Petracca, Brayshaw or McLuggage will be well within reach.

It goes without saying, whatever blue chip midfielder (or midfielders) we pick up over the next two to three seasons we really have to nail those picks. It doesn't look like we've pulled out any mid or late draft midfield gems from the current crop. XON is shaping up as the best and whilst I think he could be a handy midfield rotational option (equivalent to Redden in 2018) I can't envision any scenario where he is a top 6 player in a premiership team.

 

[Cornelius Roy]

Whats the timeline for a rebuild like?
2022 Bottom 4
2023 Bottom 4
2024 9-12
2025 Elimination final
2026 Top 4
2027 Top 4
2028 Top 4

With the state of our list I think this is pretty optimistic.

 

[Winky]

Thats wrong. Take the hit, clean the list out, you dont have to recruit speculative 18/19 year olds.. … have a look at Hayes, dixon, martin that have come straight in and improved their sides..

There’s only so much you can do and just because everyone on the list isn’t a star doesn’t mean they all have to go. People on here who think you can pretty well chop everyone and fill up with new players are delusional. We are likely to have a good hand this draft and we try and maximise it if we can. What does need to happen is that we give players on our list actual opportunity so we can assess their abilities. We then need to be on the ball in terms of negotiations with trade picks in a similar way to Peter Bell. Our recruitment team have lost the plot in recent years and missed several opportunities

 

[Goroyals22]

There’s only so much you can do and just because everyone on the list isn’t a star doesn’t mean they all have to go. People on here who think you can pretty well chop everyone and fill up with new players are delusional. We are likely to have a good hand this draft and we try and maximise it if we can. What does need to happen is that we give players on our list actual opportunity so we can assess their abilities. We then need to be on the ball in terms of negotiations with trade picks in a similar way to Peter Bell. Our recruitment team have lost the plot in recent years and missed several opportunities

No ones expecting every player on a list of 42-45 to be a star…
Just a good competent player… it shouldn’t take 8 years to see nelson is crap, years of delisting and re rooking Ah Chee to see he isnt upto it, 6 years of Waterman years being a Headless chook on ground …. We hold onto blokes for far to long when they actually do nothing for our list at all.

 

[Priddis Is Done]

With the state of our list I think this is pretty optimistic.

I think its 4 to 5 years of bottoming out

 

[Feeling Groovy]

There’s only so much you can do and just because everyone on the list isn’t a star doesn’t mean they all have to go. People on here who think you can pretty well chop everyone and fill up with new players are delusional. We are likely to have a good hand this draft and we try and maximise it if we can. What does need to happen is that we give players on our list actual opportunity so we can assess their abilities. We then need to be on the ball in terms of negotiations with trade picks in a similar way to Peter Bell. Our recruitment team have lost the plot in recent years and missed several opportunities

You are right. We can't get rid of everyone as we would generally be replacing them with worse players. But we do need to be willing to take a few swings at getting some AFL level talent. Not giving unnecessary years on contracts to players who haven't earned it and no one is chasing (XON), only to move them onto the rookie list a few years later (numerous examples of this). Not keeping players well past it being obvious they are not AFL quality (McInnes etc), allowing too many older champs to leave on their own terms (Hurn and Kennedy - although I concede there were arguments for retaining them, Kennedy particularly but I didn't agree with it). Actually recruiting the obvious midfielder who has runs on the board at that position rather than the better athlete who may translate to a mid down the track. Taking some established quality WAFL level talent with later and rookie picks occasionally (which we belatedly seem to have recognised as a good option to fill some holes).

It really does seem our recruitment team has not been on top of things over the last few years and, as you said, missed several opportunities (many of which were quite obvious). Of course there will be hits and misses with recruiting and development but if people think WC is headed in the right direction, then I am not sure what they are seeing that I am not. Of course the nature of AFL is cyclical, that is fine and I don't expect to win all the time but I do want to see where we are heading and a will to compete and for the last few years, I see us as directionless, with an outdated game-plan that the powers that be refuse to change and players that don't compete, with no consequences for the lack of competitiveness and obvious deficiencies not being addressed at the recruitment table (although last draft may be a step in the right direction - albeit obvious midfield talent was overlooked again).

 

[Chump Change]

Saying Club Y won't win a flag with Coach X is like shooting fish in a barrel.

One of the main reasons the club has been good for so long is because we are very measured in our decision. We don't follow the whim's of supporters who act like hormone charged teenagers.

I agree that that would be a simplistic view, however this is not how I think about football.

We won a flag with "coach X". But then coach X kept playing the same way and it was clear for whatever reason our players didn't want to contest the ball (I suspect that the slippery slope of teaching them to play in a way that loses the contested ball count regularly came back to bite us and Simmo refused to change).

I don't know how you can argue with me? What I just said is what happened. There's no guarantees that either Simmo changing the gameplan mid 2020 or pre-season 2021, or changing coach would have brought another flag but we just weren't a realistic chance.

We kept Woosha for too long and we kept Simmo for too long. The simplistic thought is people who think "coach X won flag, therefore can always coach well". Boards sack new coaches too early and hang onto successful coaches for too long.

 

[Chump Change]

I think its 4 to 5 years of bottoming out

You'd have to think so. It's pretty much a full list rebuild we need and that's not a bad thing.

 

[ziad]

I don't agree with posters who think Simpson is not coming under pressure from the club. I bet he is. Even though it appears from the outside to be not having much effect. But when you consider the uniqueness of our situation where ticket and membership prices are way higher than in the rest of the country and our overheads are higher than the Melbourne clubs because we have to carry the entire WA football system on our back financially, plus the whole dire economic aftermath of the Covid insanity that is upon us and will make it hard to make ends meet for average people, it is easily conceivable that weekly crowd numbers could dip to 10k. Nobody wants to pay $120 plus food and drink to go watch their team get belted by 10 goals on our home ground. The difference between crowds of 10k and crowds of 50k at $100 a pop or whatever is massive.

So i think the pressure will be right on him already behind closed doors to at least make the losses competitive and respectable. I also think the sacking of the assistants last year was a shot across Simpson's bow and was an indicator of unrest with club management with the direction things are going. Sacking all the assistants is what clubs do when they are extremely unhappy with the direction of the club and performance of the coaching panel but don't yet have the balls to sack the senior coach. So they sack the assistants instead so they can feel like and be seen to be doing something and sending a message to Simpson.

Simpson would be under pressure but many of the failings are systemic over a long period of time and lie with the club as a whole not just the head coach. This has been written about adnausium on here.

 

[Cornelius Roy]

I think its 4 to 5 years of bottoming out

Agreed, the competing teams now all have midfields built around multiple top 5 picks which we're not going to build a whole team based on two bottom 4 years.

To say we're going to be bottom 4 two years then work ourselves back up to contenders would be assuming, we have essentially all the pieces which would mean we're relying on Bazzo, Winder, Hough, Chesser, Jack Williams, Bailey Williams, Harry Edwards, Luke Foley to all the become high performing players leaving us to only really need to rebuild our engine room.

Could happen, yes. Likely to happen, no. I'm starting to lean towards a draft of Lemmey (If possible) & Broadbent using the following 3-4 years to find those elite midfielders and flankers with dash and dare.

I think Busslinger projects higher than Bazzo but the pick will be too awkward to secure, I'm interested to see how Bazzo goes in the WAFL this weekend. Not thrilled about the prospect of passing on Hewitt but is he projecting to be the next Sam Walsh type player or doesn't quite have those credentials we could secure with top 1-3 picks in future years?

Bottoming out next year will also put us in a very nice position to look to secure Koltyn Tholstrup.

 

[The_Gambler]

Just a good competent player… it shouldn’t take 8 years to see nelson is crap, years of delisting and re rooking Ah Chee to see he isnt upto it, 6 years of Waterman years being a Headless chook on ground …. We hold onto blokes for far to long when they actually do nothing for our list at all.

Plus the playing Nelson thing - he’s taking games out of Hough now. Clearly Hough has a higher ceiling and will likely be around when we play finals next. Complete rebuild is ridiculous - look at north at their dropping 18 players. Transition is where it’s at. We need to see hough, winder, XON, B.Williams if they are going to be marginally less a player than an older player going nowhere at this point. Otherwise we will be north Melbourne very soon

 

[ziad]

Plus the playing Nelson thing - he’s taking games out of Hough now. Clearly Hough has a higher ceiling and will likely be around when we play finals next. Complete rebuild is ridiculous - look at north at their dropping 18 players. Transition is where it’s at. We need to see hough, winder, XON, B.Williams if they are going to be marginally less a player than an older player going nowhere at this point. Otherwise we will be north Melbourne very soon

Agreed but Hough should not play all games as he is young, I am happy to see him rested (occasionally). Mind you I know bugger all.

 

[random260]

The harder we bottom out the better. None of the 9-12 pace crap. Bottom 4 for 3 seasons and we are all set for a dynasty

 

[The_Gambler]

Agreed but Hough should not play all games as he is young, I am happy to see him rested (occasionally). Mind you I know bugger all.

Anyone who couldn’t complete the 2km time trial in under 7 mins should be rested.

So you rest Hough from AFL to play WAFL, not much of a rest is it. Similar injury chance. Rest him from WAFL and there’s no development. Better off mixing it up at AFL with some time forward and wing than putting games into Nelson and dead wood

 

[Rowan18]

You'd have to think so. It's pretty much a full list rebuild we need and that's not a bad thing.

No it's not. We actually started rebuilding in 2017 and have already re-done most of the forward line (Allen, Ryan, Rioli and various HFF like Petch, Jones etc). Darling should be around for a couple of years but we do need a second tall forward (Waterman doesn't look like he gets there).

Backline is pretty stocked too with players that have years left (Barrass, Edwards, Duggan, Cole, Witho) but we could do with an attacking HBF. We have maybe drafted them already (Hough, Chesser?) but they need experience or it is the type of position we can trade for.

Midfield is the one that needs the work. Yeo, Sheed and Kelly are young enough to be in our next finals tilt, but we need a couple of young players to become future A Graders. We all hope a couple of bottom 4 finishes will allow that. Hopefully guys like Edwards and XON fill in the solid B grade roles (like Redden). Those are also positions that are easy to trade for.

All we need for the ruck is some solid citizens like Lycett and Vardy were. I suspect we already have them in Dixon and Strnadica.

In short, we actually have a lot of pieces already but need a couple of A grade mids and another KPF (unless one of the Williams comes on which is possible). It feel very similar to 2008-2010 in that we bottom for two years and pump games into a young midfield. Could easily see us bounce back for a year or two as our senior players have one last crack (Yeo, Kelly, Darling, Gov etc) supported by the young guys. Will probably then miss finals for a year or two when they retire.

Sydney looks to be walking this path well. They did two years in the bottom 4 and were regenerating their list with guys like Heemy and Mills before that (bloody academy cheats).