List Mgmt. List Management Discussion for 2022

[TylerDurden]

Trust me, once we get a midfield, our back line will have the freedom to finally play one on one football.

At the moment, they are being bombarded with inside 50 entries. Our mids just allow this to happen. I am pointing the finger directly at our current stand in skipper & the brownlow medallist.

Our centre bounce work is last in the comp.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

At the moment, they are being bombarded with inside 50 entries. Our mids just allow this to happen. I am pointing the finger directly at our current stand in skipper & the brownlow medallist.

The ease at which teams just saunter through our midfield since 2016 has been the most frustrating thing to watch - even more frustrating than the last few years of Clarko when we couldn't find a better way inside 50 than just putting it up in the air and hoping. We are lucky that throughout that period our defensive unit has actually been either fairly good or very good and has stemmed as much of the damage as they could.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Trust me, once we get a midfield, our back line will have the freedom to finally play one on one football.

At the moment, they are being bombarded with inside 50 entries. Our mids just allow this to happen. I am pointing the finger directly at our current stand in skipper & the brownlow medallist.

No. One on one defence is the worst case scenario and is currently the only approach we have. Team defense is where we need to get to but that takes as Frost put it a few years.

 

[Billyc]

How would we feel if we kept all of Mitchell, O'Meara and Wingard on the list for next year?

Unsurprised, because I doubt other clubs will be interested unless we paid a huge chunk of their salary.

 

[Jazzfan]

Unsurprised, because I doubt other clubs will be interested unless we paid a huge chunk of their salary.

Wingard is out of contract. I think that's an interesting watch.

 

[MrPremiership]

Unsurprised, because I doubt other clubs will be interested unless we paid a huge chunk of their salary.

I'd think we'd be very open to that, if it increase the draft asset

 

[theiaofseed]

No. One on one defence is the worst case scenario and is currently the only approach we have. Team defense is where we need to get to but that takes as Frost put it a few years.

Sam mitchell doesn't want to drop numbers behind the ball, soon as you do this you start conceding ground before the bounce is even made, keeping the forwardline wide and open forces the opposition to move number behind the ball giving us the extra in defense and allows us to launch repeated attacks.

Midfield accountability is the key for this to work

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Bizarre how many posters continually put down a three-time Crimmins medal winner, Brownlow medalist and two time AA as a Hawk... But in the same post refer to this notion that Wingard is elite, or has been elite for us.

For all his faults, Tom has delivered in absolute spades for this club. He also cost pick 14.

If he leaves, hopefully with some pick swaps we get another top 25 pick, we should celebrate him for what he produced...

The constant need for fans to bring this guy down given what he's done is s**t... Let's not forget the horrific leg injury in his prime.

For Wingard we gave up, in essence, pick 15 and a guy that will have back-to-back top six B&F finishes for Port (one in a side that made a prelim too)...

He hasn't got close to delivering what he or the club hoped. It's not about to change now given his soft-tissue issues.

Oh look, Jazzfan account number 3 revisiting the Wingard trade again for the 80th time…

Who saw that coming?

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Oh look, Jazzfan account number 3 revisiting the Wingard trade again for the 80th time…

Who saw that coming?

I mean the Honda Jazz is a sweet ride though.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Sam mitchell doesn't want to drop numbers behind the ball, soon as you do this you start conceding ground before the bounce is even made, keeping the forwardline wide and open forces the opposition to move number behind the ball giving us the extra in defense and allows us to launch repeated attacks.

Midfield accountability is the key for this to work

I don't think you understand what team defence means mate. There are no numbers behind the ball. I have explained this in other threads. The short version is that when you transition from attack to defence and vice versa the closest player to you becomes the player you defend. It minimises the effort expended in defending and Enables you to turn defence to attack a lot faster. Its the reason why teams don't tag anymore because that dedicates a player to another player and opens a net that can be exploited

 

[PenAndPaper]

S Mitchell and Lynch both has concerns that we’re well documented. Where we were placed when recruiting them if you had the time again would you take the risk?

It’s a big if, but if they don’t come good we have just burned those picks


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There's a difference between having injury concerns and then getting injured in other areas than just recurring injuries though. Seamus has had a range of injuries not just the same recurring one.

Lynch is also almost zero risk anyway so he is negligible in this discussion.

 

[Mercy Seat]

The ease at which teams just saunter through our midfield since 2016 has been the most frustrating thing to watch - even more frustrating than the last few years of Clarko when we couldn't find a better way inside 50 than just putting it up in the air and hoping. We are lucky that throughout that period our defensive unit has actually been either fairly good or very good and has stemmed as much of the damage as they could.

Our defensive unit was given a lot more assistance by our mids who would structurally always roll back and assist. That's one of the biggest changes this year, we're not rolling our mids back like we used to, so we're completely getting caught out. Essentially you're robbing Peter to pay Paul when you haven't got enough class around the ground - play all out attack and get exposed in defence, or roll your mids back and struggle to kick more than 60 points.

 

[Hawthorn2023]

Our defensive unit was given a lot more assistance by our mids who would structurally always roll back and assist. That's one of the biggest changes this year, we're not rolling our mids back like we used to, so we're completely getting caught out. Essentially you're robbing Peter to pay Paul when you haven't got enough class around the ground - play all out attack and get exposed in defence, or roll your mids back and struggle to kick more than 60 points.

Mids rolling back should be automatic. Where the mids breakdown is allowing their direct opponents continue to kick inside f50.

Here's a thought, man up!!

Opposition mids have a field day against us.

Our backs and fwds are ready to play finals. The gap between our midfield & backs/fwds is too much, the midfield needs to shorten the difference. They are a bottom 4 midfield, in comparison our backs/fwds I believe is around the 6th-10th mark.

 

[theiaofseed]

I don't think you understand what team defence means mate. There are no numbers behind the ball. I have explained this in other threads. The short version is that when you transition from attack to defence and vice versa the closest player to you becomes the player you defend. It minimises the effort expended in defending and Enables you to turn defence to attack a lot faster. Its the reason why teams don't tag anymore because that dedicates a player to another player and opens a net that can be exploited

I understand team defense but Mitchell wants to defend by having territory and step away from modern zoning, if you can avoid players rolling off to guard territory by fast ball movement you can stop compression around the ball and you can keep your forward line wide and open, this also allows you to setup a net behind the ball restricting teams ability to rebound the ball for any fialed forward 50 entries.

 

[TheFourPillars]

I understand team defense but Mitchell wants to defend by having territory and step away from modern zoning, if you can avoid players rolling off to guard territory by fast ball movement you can stop compression around the ball and you can keep your forward line wide and open, this also allows you to setup a net behind the ball restricting teams ability to rebound the ball for any fialed forward 50 entries.

I think we still want to defend as a team but there are more pressing matters. Its not my opinion Frost mentioned it also

 

[Jazzfan]

Oh look, Jazzfan account number 3 revisiting the Wingard trade again for the 80th time…

Who saw that coming?

Only in the context of a poster slamming the cost we paid for "plodder" Tom Mitchell, whilst referencing Wingard as elite.

You know, the post you liked.

 

[parsons nose]

Wouldn’t mind giving Harry a run in the midfield. I think he has improved enough to be given a go. We’ve got little to lose and he possesses some of the requisite attributes of a good on-baller.

 

[PenAndPaper]

Wouldn’t mind giving Harry a run in the midfield. I think he has improved enough to be given a go. We’ve got little to lose and he possesses some of the requisite attributes of a good on-baller.

I completely agree, I think he has all the attributes to be the type of mid we need.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

T Mitchell has not regressed. Clarko disguised his lack of accountability by allowing him to roam across the D50 and accumulate possessions. Coach Sam, not playing that game.

"Lack of accountability" you can sorta say tho most star mids don't have a high defensive workrate, Toms is mainly his lack of speed, not how hard he works, because his tank is very good and his workrate is high.

But to say "allow him to roam D50 and accumulate possessions" that's just wrong, it's never been just getting up the numbers.

His role say 2018 was always as the option if you needed him, because an option is better than none, we'd often give it to him because he was pretty good at absorbing pressure and giving it off to runners or finding a short kick out of D50.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Spot on. I have said many times, even in his peak years, that TM is not a champion. I was shot down here each time. To me, he is a great player, ultra consistent over a few years, but no champion. He won't be in the HOF. I would take Jordan Lewis (never considered a champion) over him any day of the week.

This is wow..

He for sure is a champion, his 2018 season was one of the more underrated years by a brownlow medalist, Jordan Lewis never produced footy at this quality and to say he did, is just wrong.

He was also 3rd (2nd due to Danger suspension) the year before, he was one of the best and then became pretty clearly the best in the league which JL never was.

Idk if he gets into the HOF, it's not like the NBA where it's pretty common, but he's still building a case. Brownlow medalist and multiple B&Fs, AAs etc.

 

[PenAndPaper]

"Lack of accountability" you can sorta say tho most star mids don't have a high defensive workrate, Toms is mainly his lack of speed, not how hard he works, because his tank is very good and his workrate is high.

But to say "allow him to roam D50 and accumulate possessions" that's just wrong, it's never been just getting up the numbers.

His role say 2018 was always as the option if you needed him, because an option is better than none, we'd often give it to him because he was pretty good at absorbing pressure and giving it off to runners or finding a short kick out of D50.

Problem is those players make up for the lack of defensive work rate by being offensive beasts with fantastic ball use and regularly hit the scoreboard. Tom, while a gun, doesn't excel at either when he probably needs to add one of them to his clearance work.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Problem is those players make up for the lack of defensive work rate by being offensive beasts with fantastic ball use and regularly hit the scoreboard. Tom, while a gun, doesn't excel at either when he probably needs to add one of them to his clearance work.

You'd be correct somewhat if you're talking about this year, but then again he get's significantly better in a good side. In 2018 aswell, 2018 especially he was the best in the league.

But then again, he still works harder than most star mids defensively, the only blokes i can say who are stars who work defensively are blokes like Clayton Oliver, Jack Macrae or those types.

 

[PenAndPaper]

You'd be correct somewhat if you're talking about this year, but then again he get's significantly better in a good side. In 2018 aswell, 2018 especially he was the best in the league.

But then again, he still works harder than most star mids defensively, the only blokes i can say who are stars who work defensively are blokes like Clayton Oliver, Jack Macrae or those types.

He absolutely has a lack of accountability though, that's the point. he's better in a better side because his lack of accountability doesn't get exposed as much.

He can get back to defense due to his tank but he doesn't get there fast and doesn't actually apply any accountability, its purely to be a possession out for us. Which again isn't useful in the side we have now and his ball use.

I've had a former captain tell me explicitly that Tom doesn't listen and does his own thing, while that's good when it is working its not good in the scheme of things now.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

He absolutely has a lack of accountability though, that's the point. he's better in a better side because his lack of accountability doesn't get exposed as much.

He can get back to defense due to his tank but he doesn't get there fast and doesn't actually apply any accountability, its purely to be a possession out for us. Which again isn't useful in the side we have now and his ball use.

I've had a former captain tell me explicitly that Tom doesn't listen and does his own thing, while that's good when it is working its not good in the scheme of things now.

Yeah that's fair enough. He is obviously a good tackler aswell, and with a good tank but his lack of speed really hurts. I think his ball use is overhated, he can still hit those short kicks that are needed which he has done very well, on the weekend he hit about 3-4 nice inside kicks also.

And again i don't think many mids are exactly accountability unless they're taggers or defensive mids, Clayton Oliver and Jack Macrae both get to defense like Tom does, neither really find a man or defend, but both are also good tacklers.

 

[HedgeFund]

Trust me, once we get a midfield,

This is the bald presumption so many here are making. It’s as if magically a midfield will be acquired, and then the defenders will be able to play like a bunch of third man up/offensive/opponent ignorant millionaires that we think they wish to be.

How to we “get a midfield”? Is it like walking into a Bunnings and grabbing one off the shelf?

I don’t see a Melbourne/Carlton/Fremantle calibre midfield running out in brown and gold for at least another 4 seasons. Do you?