List Mgmt. List Management Discussion for 2022

[Strapping Young Lad]

Of we were to retire BB (which is insane given he’s now having a full year off for his body to recover) and have Reeves, Lynch and Ramsden as our only rucks, our TOTAL AFL GAMES played by our ruck division would be 30.

Lynch - 9 - unless he plays again this year
Reeves - 21 if he plays the last y games
Ramsden - 0

Do you honestly think we should only have 3 ruckmen with a grand total of 30 AFL games experience going into 2023?

The funny thing is, we were set to go into 2016 with 1 fit ruckman on the list who’d played any meaningful football so we added a ruck via free agency as a free hit, and people still carry on that it was one of the worst decisions made in the last 10 years, so responses to your post will be interesting.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Agree, but funny he's probably the best player of the lot.

I wouldn't be surprised if all three were around next year, but I'm not sure that's what the supporter base wants

I personally think Tom is gone, and I think the media all know it too, which is why it gets the occasional query about his future, despite being contracted.

 

[Yardie]

I do get that and not trying to be harsh (also noting that again, these are large generalisations given you can't classify performance and potential into only 3 tiers) - however, Gunston has now played only 12 of the last 37 matches, his back issues worry me, and he will be 31 come the start of next year.

Put that all together and I think there's enough there to say there's a bit of risk there, and I would put it 'in the realms' of Wingard (again - not saying it's equal, but don't think they are worlds apart).

Don't think you are classifying correctly. An an example, Wingard has high potential but it doesn't translate so should be low performance.

 

[derp de derp]

How would we feel if we kept all of Mitchell, O'Meara and Wingard on the list for next year?

Wouldn’t be surprised, what is concerning is the number of players in the recruited by Clarko camp that have regressed.

All at their best are great players but we haven’t seen the best of Impey, Mitchell, Phillips, Hartigan this year under Sam.

You throw in the older guys like Shiels, McEvoy and Gunston and that’s 20% of our list not performing to it’s capacity without the other injuries.

Lynch, Downie and Mitchell if they can’t get their bodies right also appears to be poor recruiting.


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[PenAndPaper]

Wouldn’t be surprised, what is concerning is the number of players in the recruited by Clarko camp that have regressed.

All at their best are great players but we haven’t seen the best of Impey, Mitchell, Phillips, Hartigan this year under Sam.

You throw in the older guys like Shiels, McEvoy and Gunston and that’s 20% of our list not performing to it’s capacity without the other injuries.

Lynch, Downie and Mitchell if they can’t get their bodies right also appears to be poor recruiting.


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Don't think you can say the last 3 are examples of poor recruiting, they have had injuries that have stalled their development which has nothing to do with their recruitment considering they haven't been recurrences of injuries before they were drafted.

 

[HappyHawk_1]

Don't think you are classifying correctly. An an example, Wingard has high potential but it doesn't translate so should be low performance.

I'm factoring in age and injuries as a major factor - he's 29 in a couple of weeks and is barely getting on the park.

I wouldn't be putting him in same the low performance/high potential category as MacDonald, Ward etc. who have way more potential upside for an extended period than Wingard.

And I would say again that you can't really classify players this way, but it provides a general overview.

 

[KermitJagger]

Wouldn’t be surprised, what is concerning is the number of players in the recruited by Clarko camp that have regressed.

All at their best are great players but we haven’t seen the best of Impey, Mitchell, Phillips, Hartigan this year under Sam.

You throw in the older guys like Shiels, McEvoy and Gunston and that’s 20% of our list not performing to it’s capacity without the other injuries.

Lynch, Downie and Mitchell if they can’t get their bodies right also appears to be poor recruiting.


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Ah yes, Conor Downie is poor recruiting - 2 years into his career he falls well short of the average of 25 games played by his contemporaries at Pick 35 over the past 11 years.

 

[derp de derp]

Don't think you can say the last 3 are examples of poor recruiting, they have had injuries that have stalled their development which has nothing to do with their recruitment considering they haven't been recurrences of injuries before they were drafted.

S Mitchell and Lynch both has concerns that we’re well documented. Where we were placed when recruiting them if you had the time again would you take the risk?

It’s a big if, but if they don’t come good we have just burned those picks


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[Yardie]

I'm factoring in age and injuries as a major factor - he's 29 in a couple of weeks and is barely getting on the park.

I wouldn't be putting him in same the low performance/high potential category as MacDonald, Ward etc. who have way more potential upside for an extended period than Wingard.

And I would say again that you can't really classify players this way, but it provides a general overview.

This is the problem with these sorts of tables. They end up being a way in which management can justify who they like versus who they don't like within an organisation (I've seen it happen with this exact table). You're confusing potential with performance

You can't factor in Wingard's age and being injured on his potential. Both of those are issues are with his performance. The question the Hawks have to ask is why can we not translate Wingard's potential into performance.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

The general supporter base with no understanding of list management would want to keep them.

The hardcore fans and those with a deeper knowledge of the game itself would suggest losing any of the 3 is mutually beneficial to player and club.

Oh god I could only imagine the Facebook/Instagram replies if we traded Mitchell this off season.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Wouldn’t be surprised, what is concerning is the number of players in the recruited by Clarko camp that have regressed.

All at their best are great players but we haven’t seen the best of Impey, Mitchell, Phillips, Hartigan this year under Sam.

You throw in the older guys like Shiels, McEvoy and Gunston and that’s 20% of our list not performing to it’s capacity without the other injuries.

Lynch, Downie and Mitchell if they can’t get their bodies right also appears to be poor recruiting.


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Mitchell for one first round pick wasn't at all poor recruiting and even with him not being what we need now in the midfield it doesn't really change that.

 

[derp de derp]

Mitchell for one first round pick wasn't at all poor recruiting and even with him not being what we need now in the midfield it doesn't really change that.

I didn’t say T Mitchell was poor recruiting. I said he had regressed under Sam.

There are factors for Tom and all the others mentioned but it doesn’t change the point I was making that we have 20% of the list either under performing or not on the park.

Given the focus on rebuilding and how often the term fast track has been used it’s valid to question some of our selections when they aren’t in the frame for senior selection.


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[Hawthorn2023]

I didn’t say T Mitchell was poor recruiting. I said he had regressed under Sam.

There are factors for Tom and all the others mentioned but it doesn’t change the point I was making that we have 20% of the list either under performing or not on the park.

Given the focus on rebuilding and how often the term fast track has been used it’s valid to question some of our selections when they aren’t in the frame for senior selection.


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T Mitchell has not regressed. Clarko disguised his lack of accountability by allowing him to roam across the D50 and accumulate possessions. Coach Sam, not playing that game.

 

[theiaofseed]

I didn’t say T Mitchell was poor recruiting. I said he had regressed under Sam.

There are factors for Tom and all the others mentioned but it doesn’t change the point I was making that we have 20% of the list either under performing or not on the park.

Given the focus on rebuilding and how often the term fast track has been used it’s valid to question some of our selections when they aren’t in the frame for senior selection.


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Which players are under performing?

 

[Walshawk]

T Mitchell has not regressed. Clarko disguised his lack of accountability by allowing him to roam across the D50 and accumulate possessions. Coach Sam, not playing that game.

Spot on. I have said many times, even in his peak years, that TM is not a champion. I was shot down here each time. To me, he is a great player, ultra consistent over a few years, but no champion. He won't be in the HOF. I would take Jordan Lewis (never considered a champion) over him any day of the week.

 

[Brant]

Worpel has no interest in leaving Hawthorn

Geelong have no interest in Worpel, spoke to someone at Geelong last night, only one they are going for is Bruhn but they arn't confident

Bank

Dammit...
At least you've got 3x months to convince them!

 

[theiaofseed]

T Mitchell has not regressed. Clarko disguised his lack of accountability by allowing him to roam across the D50 and accumulate possessions. Coach Sam, not playing that game.

Averaging more score involvements, contested possessions, scoring shots and clearances this year.

 

[Jazzfan]

Wingard is elite, game changer.

the other 2 are not current top 20 mids, plodders, no accountability, cost a fortune.

At least one of them has to go, Wingard stays.

Bizarre how many posters continually put down a three-time Crimmins medal winner, Brownlow medalist and two time AA as a Hawk... But in the same post refer to this notion that Wingard is elite, or has been elite for us.

For all his faults, Tom has delivered in absolute spades for this club. He also cost pick 14.

If he leaves, hopefully with some pick swaps we get another top 25 pick, we should celebrate him for what he produced...

The constant need for fans to bring this guy down given what he's done is shit... Let's not forget the horrific leg injury in his prime.

For Wingard we gave up, in essence, pick 15 and a guy that will have back-to-back top six B&F finishes for Port (one in a side that made a prelim too)...

He hasn't got close to delivering what he or the club hoped. It's not about to change now given his soft-tissue issues.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Spot on. I have said many times, even in his peak years, that TM is not a champion. I was shot down here each time. To me, he is a great player, ultra consistent over a few years, but no champion. He won't be in the HOF. I would take Jordan Lewis (never considered a champion) over him any day of the week.

I would take Brad Sewell over him every day of the week.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Averaging more score involvements, contested possessions, scoring shots and clearances this year.

So you are proving his point that Sam is making him play more accountable footy.

 

[Blackhawk42]

S Mitchell and Lynch both has concerns that we’re well documented. Where we were placed when recruiting them if you had the time again would you take the risk?

It’s a big if, but if they don’t come good we have just burned those picks


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Lynch has copped some of the unluckiest injuries any footballer has had to deal with this season. Head injuries aren't like soft tissue or dodgy ACL's.

He was recruited to support Reeves and McEvoy primarily. Those two suffered a dislocated shoulder and broken neck(!!!) respectively. Nothing but bad luck on all those fronts.

As for Seamus, well there isn't a heap of talent selected after him that looks to be making us look foolish. Aside from Jack Ginnivan who is making everybody except Collingwood look like idiots.

 

[theiaofseed]

So you are proving his point that Sam is making him play more accountable footy.

.........

I'm agree with him by pointing out critical stats Mitchell had improved on this year that make him a far more damaghing player than seagulling cheap possessions off the pack.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

.........

I'm agree with him by pointing out critical stats Mitchell had improved on this year that make him a far more damaghing player than seagulling cheap possessions off the pack.

My bad - thought you were offering it as a rebuttal.

 

[Jazzfan]

So you are proving his point that Sam is making him play more accountable footy.

Clarko played Tom just as he did Sam really. Neither were asked to have accountability.

Sam's change in style from Clarko isn't just a big change for Tom, look at our half-backs this year... under Clarko it was the easiest position to play, we were ultra defensive and pushed a 7th back.

Under Sam, he want's one-on-on all over the ground... I don't think any of Impey, CJ, Day, Bramble or Scrimshaw are having better years this year to last tbh...

It will be great for them and us long term but.

 

[Hawthorn2023]

Averaging more score involvements, contested possessions, scoring shots and clearances this year.

Clarko played Tom just as he did Sam really. Neither were asked to have accountability.

Sam's change in style from Clarko isn't just a big change for Tom, look at our half-backs this year... under Clarko it was the easiest position to play, we were ultra defensive and pushed a 7th back.

Under Sam, he want's one-on-on all over the ground... I don't think any of Impey, CJ, Day, Bramble or Scrimshaw are having better years this year to last tbh...

It will be great for them and us long term but.

Trust me, once we get a midfield, our back line will have the freedom to finally play one on one football.

At the moment, they are being bombarded with inside 50 entries. Our mids just allow this to happen. I am pointing the finger directly at our current stand in skipper & the brownlow medallist.