Team Mgmt. Makeup of our team II - Strengths & deficiencies, player development

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MattyB3150 said:
Essendon need the "Luke Hodge Type"...The one i would be chasing would be Luke Parker. I know he is a midfielder but he can also play forward.
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I'd bring him in for one reason... every time one of our players squibs at the contest, Luke can follow them around mocking them with his shoulder shrugs.

I'm guessing after one season Luke will have the most impressive shoulders in the AFL.
 
Zach Package said:
Or you could look at it the other way, D’Ambrosio and Voss were shunted here and then found homes with teams who finished below us on the ladder, and have helped them go above us because we couldn’t utilise their talents.
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You could make that case for D’Ambrosio but suggesting Voss is dragging Freo up the ladder is a big overreach
 
Old Campaigner said:
You could make that case for D’Ambrosio but suggesting Voss is dragging Freo up the ladder is a big overreach
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He's played senior footy, so he's done something.

I guess the fundamental point is that you would think the natural order of things would be lower sides picking off depth from sides at the top of the ladder, basically the opposite happened with us, we got picked off while rebuilding and barely mid table. How often does that happen when there's no interstate go home factor involved?

As far as I'm concerned that should never happen, except maybe with a ruckman if you squint. We should have been in the mode of 'accumulate as much young talent as possible and figure it out later', not letting AFL standard 20 year olds go for nothing.
 

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Zach Package said:
He's played senior footy, so he's done something.

I guess the fundamental point is that you would think the natural order of things would be lower sides picking off depth from sides at the top of the ladder, basically the opposite happened with us, we got picked off while rebuilding and barely mid table. How often does that happen when there's no interstate go home factor involved?

As far as I'm concerned that should never happen, except maybe with a ruckman if you squint. We should have been in the mode of 'accumulate as much young talent as possible and figure it out later', not letting AFL standard 20 year olds go for nothing.
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TBH it probably happens plenty, we just don't notice because it's happening to fringe players at other clubs.
 
Interesting and positive quote from Tex Wanganeen:

Wanganeen credits the growing culture between the club’s programs as a key factor in the turn of on-field fortunes.

“Since the start of the year, the connection between each other (has improved),” Wanganeen said.

“There’s no real AFL or VFL program, it feels like we’re just one team and the last few weeks have shown (that) on the back of that, we’ve got a great bond with each other and we’re a connected team.”
 
If you use the draft predictor to see who everyone around the fringe of the 8 have to play, not only does Essendon have to beat Gold Coast and Sydney in Melbourne as a minimum, the results going our way is less than 1% chance. This means winning all three, including Brisbane at home .. LOL.

So, I personally hope that this makes the club focus on what they should have been focussing on for all of this year. Developing the next gen. Caddy and Roberts demonstrate we've picked up 2 x 200 gamers, and both important cogs to team. I think the Davey's and Wanganeen are a long way off as is Lual.

We didn't play Bryan enough and misused Goldstein as he should have been depth and allowed us to rotate Bryan in and out of the side through the year to develop him, but also reduce the physical impact on him.

Durham has gone to a whole new level and Caldwell has been excellent. I can see the long-term benefit of playing Martin down back, but he's a forward. He's one of the few players who can impact a game heavily as a high half-forward. Now, that he knows what his opponent will be trying to do offensively, he'll also be able to curb that (hopefully), but please play him forward.

McKay, Gresham and Duursma all add depth to our list, and McKay has proven he can anchor the backline. All are young enough to be seen as good long-term picks. I think this year we go to the draft again, and adjust contracts for next year so we have another war chest at the end of next year for a free agent. If we improve again, that alone could be an attractive proposition for a gun player to see that their addition could be the cherry on the cake to help a giant of a club become on-field powerhouse. The change in academy rules gives us Kako. So another solid 2nd round pick would make it a success. The club needs to make a call on Hayes, and consider their confidence in Reid's body. If Hayes is not going to get games with both Reid and Ridley missing next year, then we don't need him, we should move him on and pick a mature player to provide the depth required while Reid gets his body right.

I hope our round team next year looks like this:

Langford Draper Kako
Martin Caddy El-Hawli
Cox Durham Jones
Bryan Caldwell Merrett
Redman Reid Roberts
McGrath McKay Ridley
Stringer Perkins Parish Hobbs
Tsatas

2MP hopefully comes good and bashes the door down. Duursma and Gresham could easily be in that side too.

I am starting to come around to the very tall wingmen. If Cox can grow into that role we have two 200cm men floating up and down as interceptors, a wide get-out kick, and floating in front of the backup forward too.

Old men stay or go? Heppell, Kelly, Laverde, Goldstein, Hind, Weiderman and Stringer. Stringer is still a burst player capable of things that normal humans can't do, he needs to be more consistent. Hind has a spunk to him and seems to love the club as much as a supporter. Kelly and Heppell are now both limited players but remain professional and great leaders. Laverde puts his body on the line week in and week out. As genuine depth, Goldstein is worthwhile for one more year with Bryan so young and Draper's body still letting him down.

The only dead certainty to go there is Weiderman, but we'll need one or two more to go.

Kids yet to make an impression: Wanganneen, Daveys, Lual, Hunter, Visentini, and Hayes. There is no way we can keep them all. I get the feeling Wanganeed, J Davey and Hunter will be delisted with the opportunity to stay on with VFL to win their way back to senior footy. Hayes is a strange one. I reckon he'd be getting games at some clubs and am surprised he hasn't been tried in times that both Ridley and Reid were out. I think that Lual and Visentini would have had to be complete disasters to not be given one more chance.
 
fishardansin said:
If you use the draft predictor to see who everyone around the fringe of the 8 have to play, not only does Essendon have to beat Gold Coast and Sydney in Melbourne as a minimum, the results going our way is less than 1% chance. This means winning all three, including Brisbane at home .. LOL.

So, I personally hope that this makes the club focus on what they should have been focussing on for all of this year. Developing the next gen. Caddy and Roberts demonstrate we've picked up 2 x 200 gamers, and both important cogs to team. I think the Davey's and Wanganeen are a long way off as is Lual.

We didn't play Bryan enough and misused Goldstein as he should have been depth and allowed us to rotate Bryan in and out of the side through the year to develop him, but also reduce the physical impact on him.

Durham has gone to a whole new level and Caldwell has been excellent. I can see the long-term benefit of playing Martin down back, but he's a forward. He's one of the few players who can impact a game heavily as a high half-forward. Now, that he knows what his opponent will be trying to do offensively, he'll also be able to curb that (hopefully), but please play him forward.

McKay, Gresham and Duursma all add depth to our list, and McKay has proven he can anchor the backline. All are young enough to be seen as good long-term picks. I think this year we go to the draft again, and adjust contracts for next year so we have another war chest at the end of next year for a free agent. If we improve again, that alone could be an attractive proposition for a gun player to see that their addition could be the cherry on the cake to help a giant of a club become on-field powerhouse. The change in academy rules gives us Kako. So another solid 2nd round pick would make it a success. The club needs to make a call on Hayes, and consider their confidence in Reid's body. If Hayes is not going to get games with both Reid and Ridley missing next year, then we don't need him, we should move him on and pick a mature player to provide the depth required while Reid gets his body right.

I hope our round team next year looks like this:

Langford Draper Kako
Martin Caddy El-Hawli
Cox Durham Jones
Bryan Caldwell Merrett
Redman Reid Roberts
McGrath McKay Ridley
Stringer Perkins Parish Hobbs
Tsatas

2MP hopefully comes good and bashes the door down. Duursma and Gresham could easily be in that side too.

I am starting to come around to the very tall wingmen. If Cox can grow into that role we have two 200cm men floating up and down as interceptors, a wide get-out kick, and floating in front of the backup forward too.

Old men stay or go? Heppell, Kelly, Laverde, Goldstein, Hind, Weiderman and Stringer. Stringer is still a burst player capable of things that normal humans can't do, he needs to be more consistent. Hind has a spunk to him and seems to love the club as much as a supporter. Kelly and Heppell are now both limited players but remain professional and great leaders. Laverde puts his body on the line week in and week out. As genuine depth, Goldstein is worthwhile for one more year with Bryan so young and Draper's body still letting him down.

The only dead certainty to go there is Weiderman, but we'll need one or two more to go.

Kids yet to make an impression: Wanganneen, Daveys, Lual, Hunter, Visentini, and Hayes. There is no way we can keep them all. I get the feeling Wanganeed, J Davey and Hunter will be delisted with the opportunity to stay on with VFL to win their way back to senior footy. Hayes is a strange one. I reckon he'd be getting games at some clubs and am surprised he hasn't been tried in times that both Ridley and Reid were out. I think that Lual and Visentini would have had to be complete disasters to not be given one more chance.
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I thought it deserved its own thread especially with the points I'm raising for what we need to achieve next year but I guess others disagree.

For 2025 I'm really hoping we can work on our commitment to play the whole year and actually play 4-quarters and not just one or two each week.

The one thing I want Scott to drill into the players over the off-season is how important percentage is. It's an extra win or loss. We haven't finished a single season with a percentage above 110% since 2002. That goes to show how awful our standards have been.

Finals would've still been in our control right now despite our bad second half if it weren't for our terrible percentage.

2025 needs to have no losses above 30-35 and at least 4 wins above 50 points.
 
JayJ20 said:
I thought it deserved its own thread especially with the points I'm raising for what we need to achieve next year but I guess others disagree.

For 2025 I'm really hoping we can work on our commitment to play the whole year and actually play 4-quarters and not just one or two each week.

The one thing I want Scott to drill into the players over the off-season is how important percentage is. It's an extra win or loss. We haven't finished a single season with a percentage above 110% since 2002. That goes to show how awful our standards have been.

Finals would've still been in our control right now despite our bad second half if it weren't for our terrible percentage.

2025 needs to have no losses above 30-35 and at least 4 wins above 50 points.
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I don't think we need a thread declaring 2024 dead an hour before the bounce when our season actually isn't quite dead yet (I don't think?). It might have survived otherwise but it is essentially another make up of the team/draft type thread.
 
my simple feedback. on the glaring obvious could be a rant, probably is. There's plenty more but can't be arsed.

1) nothing is changing if we don't overhaul our fwdline. It is a complete shit show down there both personal and structure. We are getting the ball in the FWD50, but completely inept at scoring. has been a theme the entire year. Go and ****in offer max king whatever he wants.

2) Langford or stringer. Pick 1 and play 1 only. If I had a dollar every time one of these eggs dropped a park mark my boat would be bigger than Steve jobs.

3) Zach Reid has 1 more year to get body right. If he doesn't. **** him off - If Laverde is starting in this team. We may as well pack it in. He is a depth guy at best, not someone we want playing 15+ games a year. Proper Gumbleton 2.0 this bloke.

4) Nick Cox & Archie Perkins, have some serious questions to ask themselves if they want to do what it takes to play AFL level footy. Talent absolutely being pissed up a wall.

5) Menzie needs to be delisted. Tries his guts out but he does not have the talent for it. Too slow, can't kick.

6) Serious questions need to be said to 2MP. Stop being a ****in cat and crash the pack. if you get suspended you get suspended. Stop being a pussy. Also, can someone measure this blokes hands. He is 2 metres tall but has the hands of a 5"8 bloke
 
HirdsTheWord said:
my simple feedback. on the glaring obvious could be a rant, probably is. There's plenty more but can't be arsed.

1) nothing is changing if we don't overhaul our fwdline. It is a complete shit show down there both personal and structure. We are getting the ball in the FWD50, but completely inept at scoring. has been a theme the entire year. Go and ****in offer max king whatever he wants.

2) Langford or stringer. Pick 1 and play 1 only. If I had a dollar every time one of these eggs dropped a park mark my boat would be bigger than Steve jobs.

3) Zach Reid has 1 more year to get body right. If he doesn't. **** him off - If Laverde is starting in this team. We may as well pack it in. He is a depth guy at best, not someone we want playing 15+ games a year. Proper Gumbleton 2.0 this bloke.

4) Nick Cox & Archie Perkins, have some serious questions to ask themselves if they want to do what it takes to play AFL level footy. Talent absolutely being pissed up a wall.

5) Menzie needs to be delisted. Tries his guts out but he does not have the talent for it. Too slow, can't kick.

6) Serious questions need to be said to 2MP. Stop being a ****in cat and crash the pack. if you get suspended you get suspended. Stop being a pussy. Also, can someone measure this blokes hands. He is 2 metres tall but has the hands of a 5"8 bloke
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C'mon man, we don't have the balls to make tough decisions. We re signed the talented Jye Menzie for another year who so many clubs would have been falling over themselves to sign
 

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I’ve consistently said that our list is absolutely average, just look at it,terrible. ( hi Adrian, how’s the holiday? )The one thing is that this league is extremely even/competitive. Gives almost every team hope. We do not pump teams, not in us, look at the percentage, pathetic. But we do get pumped, and we can not put teams away.
 
windyhill said:
I’ve consistently said that our list is absolutely average, just look at it,terrible. ( hi Adrian, how’s the holiday? )The one thing is that this league is extremely even/competitive. Gives almost every team hope. We do not pump teams, not in us, look at the percentage, pathetic. But we do get pumped, and we can not put teams away.
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its funny you say that, have a look at the last 10 final positions and accompanying % next to each

(year, ladder position, percentage, percentage ranking)

2023 - 11th, 89% (4th bottom)
2022 - 15th, 83% (3rd bottom)
2021 - 8th, 109% (7th overall)
2020 - 13th, 79% (3rd bottom)
2019 - 8th, 95% (6th bottom)
2018 - 11th, 105% (11th overall)
2017 - 7th, 106%, (7th overall)
2016 - 18th, 60%, (last) [perspective, Brisbane finished second last just 0.64% ahead of us with our top ups that year]
2015 - 15th, 74%, (4th bottom)
2014 - 7th, 106%, (10th overall)


Even when we are "winning", we generally do not annihilate teams and it shows with that percentage over the last decade.
 
May as well trawl through the list, ive had a cannon at everything else tonight (by name);

Kaine Baldwin - Perenailly injured, won't be apart of a side pushing for glory. When he does get fit, hits another hurdle.

Nick Bryan - I really want to like him, think he could be a competent part of what we do.

Nate Caddy - exciting signs and still to young but can see him apart of what we want to do.

Jye Caldwell - Should be moved into the leadership group next year. Bloke looks like he should be our next captain

Nic Cox - I think we have tainted him through his own unicorn abilities by not settling him in one position. Whenever he shows promise, we move him. Settle him and we could have a reasonable role player.

Alwyn Davey - I don't think he is physical enough and is probably too small to play higher up the ground and actually influence matches.

Jayden Davey - Soft, doesn't do enough consistently enough long enough.

Sam Draper - Big dopey and will go one of two ways on a cold wet preliminary final night. Shit the bed or BOG. Im not a fan (anymore) but can see the seduction he gives

Sam Durham - Very good player, think he is overhyped because of how poor the group is but a very, very good B grade player who could continue to grow and become an A grader in the Mitch Duncan ranking.

Xavier Duursma - Probably undersold how well he has gone this year and done it extremely well. I like him and just goes about his job.

Saad El-Hawli - If we don't play him in either of the last two games then he's likely gone. Looks to be a guy who could handle himself on the big stage but at the moment a real unknown.

Todd Goldstein - Retire and let Draper/Bryan go at the #1 mantle. Bring in someone else to be 3rd choice but hes done

Jade Gresham - I didn't like it at the time and continue to do so. Shows glimpses but for the price we are rumoured to be paying him, we are just not getting enough.

Matt Guelfi - Love him and what he could do but just doesn't have enough runs on the board. A position we desperately need to improve on.

Lewis Hayes - Looks very solid and with another pre season under his belt should be pushing for best 22. Looks a much more educated player than Laverde when playing KPD.

Dyson Heppel - Retire graciously and let the club move on

Nick Hind - Another whom I really want to like but geez he does some dumb shit.

Ben Hobbs - If we aren't going to utilise him then move him on and get some draft collateral back into the first round.

Jaiden Hunter - Delisted

Harrison Jones - This really is a curiosity im unsure I can answer. I really like what he is doing but is he a premiership wingman? Im not so sure.

Jake Kelly - Please move on. Slow in hand and in motion. Just not up to it yet stays in our best 22 somehow.

Kyle Langford - If someone came with a top 15 pick you would need to seriously entertain it. Is he as good as we think he is or just because the rest of the club is shit around him? If hip injuries are true then show us in 2025 what an injury free season looks like as he was or close to AA in 2023.

Jayden Laverde - Doesn't even need to be said. Not good enough to be a KPD let alone one capable of pushing for a flag

Luamon Lual - Seen enough to say that his ball watching and skills aren't up to it. Hope he proves me wrong but coming from a long way back.

Nic Martin - I really like him and what he does offensively. Jus think we are using him in the wrong way.

Andrew McGrath - We are asking him to do to much but that is down to both coaching and list management by not having the right players next to him.

Ben McKay - Almost like for like with McGrah's write up.

Jye Menzie - One of the great myths how Jye got another year. Wont be here at end of 2025 imho.

Zac Merrett - best player since Hird. Enough said

Darcy Parish - If someone came with a top 10 pick I would do it. Rebalance the midfield group. A very, very good player on his day but wanting to rebalance the midfield group means someone moves out.

Archie Perkins - Have no * idea what has happened but needs confidence or egg shells are coming in 2025.

Mason Redman - Was shaping up to be one of the premier HBFers in the league but has completely lost his way in 2024. He is one who would be apart of a cold wet preliminary final night

Zac Reid - If someone came with a top 20 pick then you would need to entertain it. Cut your losses and move on from the what if to the actually is.

Jordan Ridley - Is approaching the levels of intrigue reserved for players who hardly play but knowing his best I want him to stay. Can we trust him to play 22 games? Im not sure but he is close to one of our most important players when fit and firing.

Archie Roberts - Kid just has "it" what that is im unsure but just looks and acts like a very good AFL player. Should play 200 AFL games for us.

Will Setterfield - Could play a preliminary final night but won't make it. Slow and to many in front. I would move on from him

Dylan Shiel - I was in the trade camp but his last fortnight has shown he still has a place. I am almost inclined to keep him.

Jake Stringer - A little bit like Harry Kane at Tottenham, when Stringer is going he is at the centre of most good things but are we too Jake centric? do we rip the bandaid off and move on from him? I am so torn on this one.

Elijah Tsatas - Just want him to have a consistent run of it as an AFL midfielder because the ball hunting is so obvious to all and sundry.

Vigo - To early to tell but shows a bit at VFL level

Tex Wanganeen - On record saying injuries have cost him and is coming from a long way back. Has all the tools and if we were serious as a football club would cut him. We won't though

Sam Weidemann / Peter Wright - Both won't be here when we next push for a flag
 
ant555 said:
Have decided that I will do a bit of a deep dive into some recent rebuilds . Have started a new thread because there will be a cross over of discussion between Essendon and other clubs .
I am currently getting some stats and time lines in order but I will look at Melbourne / Richmond / Hawthorn / Brisbane to start with.
Some facts I already have but will research further are

Melbourne took 9 years from when Roos / Goodwin / Taylor / Mahoney took over and only two players from that first year played in the GF winning side. Gawn and T McDonald .

The Hawks rebuild had its origins at the end of the 2019 season when they went 11-11 after making the top 4 the previous season but losing both finals. Mitchell was seen as the next coach even when he was midfield coach in 19/20 . A few of the players leading the charge now came in under the end of Clarkson's top up days and early days of rebuild.
Although Clarkson was pushed out early and Wright went to the Pies the promotions came from within and where all part of the new build from day one in their previous roles at the club.
Even though there was a fight at board level there both sides where backing Mitchell as coach. McCartney as GM of footy and McKenzie as list manager.
They had a very good CEO in Justin Reeves from 2017 who only stepped down in 2023 due to the pressure of the Racism scandal and mental health issues.

Hardwicke started at the Tigers in 2010 and it took 7 years . First 3 years where 15t-12th-12th before 3 years of finals then 13th and then their 17 / 19 / 20 GF wins. Richmond already had Riewoldt / Edwards / Cotchin / Rance / Martin / Astbury / Grimes on the list before Hardwicke took over.
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Comes down to drafting elite level talent for mine - and building/rounding out the team from there. Every team is going to miss from time to time, but getting in as many top 5, 10, 20 picks as possible.

Dees with Petracca (2) and Oliver (3).

Tigers with Cotch (2) and Dusty (3).

Harris Andrews as the heart and soul. And in 2017 they traded in Charlie Cameron and Hodge - and drafted Rayner, Bailey, Starcevich and Payne (what an offseason).

And the Hawks have just gone berserk at the draft and taken a whole heap - though not a huge amount of top 10 picks surprisingly - they seem to have spread their picks out.
 
Richmond boosted its roving division with Lambert Short & Castagna. In the rookie draft. Followed by Rioli, Bolton, Baker etc and just went to another level.
But the Prestia trade was the big one. Before that Martin had to go in and win the ball. Prestia took Martin off the leash.
 
If this is a deep dive into successful rebuilds - maybe this threads needs the 'non-Essendon' tag.
 
Saints fan but I have family that support the Bombers so like to read what’s going on here.
Caddy and Durham look like a good start for a rebuild but nothing about the recent signings and general age demographic of your most prominent players suggest you’re in a rebuild.
Are you suggesting start a rebuild now? Who would you trade?
 
Gavinmitchell11 said:
Saints fan but I have family that support the Bombers so like to read what’s going on here.
Caddy and Durham look like a good start for a rebuild but nothing about the recent signings and general age demographic of your most prominent players suggest you’re in a rebuild.
Are you suggesting start a rebuild now? Who would you trade?
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Our senior core need to be traded out, theyve shown many times they cant handle the pressure at the pointy end of the season yet we have signed them up to long term deals. Mcgrath, Redman, Draper etc.

If we're relying on these blokes to take us to the next level, we are ****ed
 

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Team Mgmt. Makeup of our team II - Strengths & deficiencies, player development

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