Team Mgmt. Makeup of our team II - Strengths & deficiencies, player development

[Lore]

good effort
forgot Perkins as a high half forward
really highlights our lack of depth for rebounding defenders

Hoowwwwww did I lose Perkins? Could've sworn he was on there... must've got overwritten.

 

[Old Campaigner]

Im not claiming to know exactly what the clubs expectations are, im basing my opinion of their expectations off their actions. The style of list build, recruiting, the type of team picked each week etc.

What is the ‘style of list build’ you keep referring to?

 

[ant555]

Its not about how full my glass is or you walking out on a ledge. The way we have recruited and the way you will see our 23 rolled out each week will show that the club believes its in a position to play and win a final. They couldn't give a * whether you or i think its possible.

Something lost in transition here .

"No injuries and we should winning a final next year with this lot imo."

This was the part of your post that I did not totally agree with. Yes the club will be looking to play finals and yes they have added some experience but I know the feeling inside the club is also it has a massive amount of work to do despite finals being the aim.
The amount of changes to everything in the last 12 months should be a giveaway that there has been another fork in the road after looking to go in a different direction under Truck. There have been some pretty big changes that will take time .

 

[jdstorm]

the clubs actions seem to be about not competing at such a significant financial disadvantage especially with the cap due to rise.

That and scaffolding adding 2x players who will likely play 100 games for Essendon, possibly 200 in a best case scenario.

That close to the average outcome for a pick in the 8-10 range and Essendon got 2 for free.

They sideswapped BZT for another best 22 player at a position of need and are now looking to add 3x top 40 picks to bolster VFL depth and play the odds that 1-2 of them should be good players.

This is really just baseline list building competence. You can’t afford to consolidate talent if you have no depth so this year is about building depth of talent. Particularly midsized (188-192cm) types who can kick

 

[Bjchan13]

Something lost in transition here .

"No injuries and we should winning a final next year with this lot imo."

This was the part of your post that I did not totally agree with. Yes the club will be looking to play finals and yes they have added some experience but I know the feeling inside the club is also it has a massive amount of work to do despite finals being the aim.
The amount of changes to everything in the last 12 months should be a giveaway that there has been another fork in the road after looking to go in a different direction under Truck. There have been some pretty big changes that will take time .

Which part are you disagreeing with?

That the 23 i named will not be picked if fit.

Or that the 23 i named is not capable of winning a final?

 

[Bjchan13]

What is the ‘style of list build’ you keep referring to?

Post 153

 

[ant555]

Which part are you disagreeing with?

That the 23 i named will not be picked if fit.

Or that the 23 i named is not capable of winning a final?

The part where you said we should be winning a final next year with this lot IMO .

 

[Bjchan13]

The part where you said we should be winning a final next year with this lot IMO .

You're paraphrasing though. Do you think the 23 i named is close to what Brad would pick?

 

[ant555]

You're paraphrasing though. Do you think the 23 i named is close to what Brad would pick?

Like I said this has been lost somewhere. Obviously what you have seen to be saying and what I read are two different things . I have no idea who Scott is going to pick right now although I will say I think a lot of the best 23 predictions going around will not work.
So are you actually saying "your" opinion is not we will not win a final next year then ?

 

[Old Campaigner]

Post 153

That? I’m not sure its actually a ‘style’ of list build and there’s probably more opportunism at play i.e. wtf do we do with all this cap space? Sling it at free agents.

Why do I think that? Simply put, the guys we’ve bought in are not match winners who are going to drag us into the 8 and into the second week of finals.

 

[Bjchan13]

Like I said this has been lost somewhere. Obviously what you have seen to be saying and what I read are two different things . I have no idea who Scott is going to pick right now although I will say I think a lot of the best 23 predictions going around will not work.
So are you actually saying "your" opinion is not we will not win a final next year then ?

You'll have to go back and read the post you've quoted me from Ant. I named a 23 and then said 'no injuries and we should be winning a final with this lot'.

 

[Old Campaigner]

Or that the 23 i named is not capable of winning a final?

Absolutely, all it’s going to take is some pretty significant cultural shifts take place and they can bed down a game plan that stands up to finals like pressure and they decide to defend through the midfield significantly better than 2023 and we somehow get better at contested marking and there’s limited games missed by key players through injury.

So, on second thoughts, probably not.

 

[ant555]

You'll have to go back and read the post you've quoted me from Ant. I named a 23 and then said 'no injuries and we should be winning a final with this lot'.

I think I have already said what you meant and how it read to me is the issue although I am still confused .

What I have said is I do not agree the 23 named "should" be winning a final next year or any 23 of ours you or anyone want to name . They "may' make finals and "may " win a final but it is certainly no sure thing . We have just tinkered with the edges of the issues and added a bit of depth. Only one of the major issues have been addressed IMO and that is FB. We are still a middle of the road side. 6th to 12th.

So no I do not agree with "no injuries and we should be winning a final with this lot.

I do think internally it will be what they are aiming for . That is a given as it should be.

I am still confused. Was the line your opinion of what should happen or not ?

Previously you also said we have a young list ready to win now which I also replied I did not agree with . So what is it ? I am obviously not getting what you are saying.

 

[Yoda_]

That? I’m not sure its actually a ‘style’ of list build and there’s probably more opportunism at play i.e. wtf do we do with all this cap space? Sling it at free agents.

Why do I think that? Simply put, the guys we’ve bought in are not match winners who are going to drag us into the 8 and into the second week of finals.

I tend to agree, the only one who changes us is McKay which is why I was happy enough (now) to overpay him. Gresham may be an AFL standard forward but he's not a match winner nor will he change the culture. Duursma may come good and end up at a Taylor Adams / George Hewitt level (just below the good guys (at best). Goldstein was insurance but will be referenced over Bryan can almost guarantee it.

I would have liked to have stuck to the draft or go for one BIG fish via free agency and saved the other cap space. even bought a salary dump.

 

[Call Me Cake]

Personally I hope they aren't pushing the finals thing too hard too soon because that's going to lead us down the garden path of shortcuts at the expense of sustained success.

View attachment InShot_20231020_145937423.mp4

Do you know where you're at?

"7000" ect ect ect and everyone here keeps buying into the "elephant in the room" meme. We are not a club that's just going to sit back and relax for a couple of years while we get pummelled in the back by 100 point losses. You saw how rabid the place got when we lost heavily to the premiers and 1-point-away-from-a-GF preliminaries in the last 2 rounds. It's the supporter base that's the cause of this, not them.

Therefore the club knows it must stay competitive whilst also striving for future development. Thankfully rather than shortcutting our future at the expense of finals as would the Essington of old, we've found a way to do both.

Bringing in players that plug the holes that need to be filled in order to be competitive without sacrificing our draft hand for this year and the next all the while instilling the prospect of finals as a motivator for their improvement. If we had traded away our picks, or recruited multiple retirement-bound players on one year contracts with the aim of them being our first choice, or not giving developing players opportunities when they deserve it, then I'd side with your point. That would be typical Essington. But it ain't. Therefore I disagree.

 

[Old Campaigner]

I would have liked to have stuck to the draft or go for one BIG fish via free agency and saved the other cap space. even bought a salary dump.

It's easy enough to say that, but you need a big name player to a) be available, and b) choose us. Same with the salary dump.

 

[Bjchan13]

I think I have already said what you meant and how it read to me is the issue although I am still confused .

What I have said is I do not agree the 23 named "should" be winning a final next year or any 23 of ours you or anyone want to name . They "may' make finals and "may " win a final but it is certainly no sure thing . We have just tinkered with the edges of the issues and added a bit of depth. Only one of the major issues have been addressed IMO and that is FB. We are still a middle of the road side. 6th to 12th.

So no I do not agree with "no injuries and we should be winning a final with this lot.

I do think internally it will be what they are aiming for . That is a given as it should be.

I am still confused. Was the line your opinion of what should happen or not ?

Previously you also said we have a young list ready to win now which I also replied I did not agree with . So what is it ? I am obviously not getting what you are saying.

Yes, that is correct, no injuries i believe that 23 i named should win a final. So we disagree on that which is fine.

Yes, to clarify, i believe our list is in a position to play and win a final, if things went right (injury, form, development), as of next year. This does not mean I believe a 'rebuild' has been completed. We are topping up through free agency, retaining players and keeping our draft picks. We are having an each way bet essentially. Completely different rebuild style to what North, West Coast and to a degree Hawthorn are doing/have done. You also disagree with this which is fine too.

Appreciate the reply and you taking time to clarify and get us on the same page.

 

[Bjchan13]

That? I’m not sure its actually a ‘style’ of list build and there’s probably more opportunism at play i.e. wtf do we do with all this cap space? Sling it at free agents.

Why do I think that? Simply put, the guys we’ve bought in are not match winners who are going to drag us into the 8 and into the second week of finals.

Im not going to get hung up on the word style. You shouldn't either. What we are doing is different to North, WC and Hawthorn. We could've cashed in on Redman and Parish. We kept them. We targeted 3 mature free agents. We traded another in. I think we may see the club throw draft picks at an OOC key forward next year as well.

 

[faible]

Im not going to get hung up on the word style. You shouldn't either. What we are doing is different to North, WC and Hawthorn. We could've cashed in on Redman and Parish. We kept them. We targeted 3 mature free agents. We traded another in. I think we may see the club throw draft picks at an OOC key forward next year as well.

Those three created a situation where they didn’t really have an alternative option, they fielded older and older sides and topped up at the cost of draft capital until such a time as they had no option but to blow it all up

 

[fairbump_playon]

Im not going to get hung up on the word style. You shouldn't either. What we are doing is different to North, WC and Hawthorn. We could've cashed in on Redman and Parish. We kept them. We targeted 3 mature free agents. We traded another in. I think we may see the club throw draft picks at an OOC key forward next year as well.

You're right that it's not a nuclear rebuild.

But gee I hated those days about 10-15 years ago when it felt like most teams were openly saying "we're not in the window and won't be for 5 years".

Try to win FFS.. relatively soon. Every team should be able to win within 4 years if they do everything right. The one possible exception is WCE who have only themselves to blame for the multi-layered mess their club is in.

Pushing out the likes of Redman & Parish for draft capital t is 1) a bad idea in a weak draft, and 2) likely to have us just as crap in 5 years as we are now, as the new replacement edition Redman and Parish get to 23 years old and turn out to be only good players and not superstars.

Also - cheapish FA when we have massive salary cap space... what do people think was the alternative? Take ten picks to the draft and instead of getting Goldstein plus 3 good players between 22 & 26, we add in picks 70, 71, 72 & 73?

Agree with you that we are having an each way bet - but probably going further to say that's exactly what we should be doing.

 

[faible]

You're right that it's not a nuclear rebuild.

But gee I hated those days about 10-15 years ago when it felt like most teams were openly saying "we're not in the window and won't be for 5 years".

Try to win FFS.. relatively soon. Every team should be able to win within 4 years if they do everything right. The one possible exception is WCE who have only themselves to blame for the multi-layered mess their club is in.

Pushing out the likes of Redman & Parish for draft capital t is 1) a bad idea in a weak draft, and 2) likely to have us just as crap in 5 years as we are now, as the new replacement edition Redman and Parish get to 23 years old and turn out to be only good players and not superstars.

Also - cheapish FA when we have massive salary cap space... what do people think was the alternative? Take ten picks to the draft and instead of getting Goldstein plus 3 good players between 22 & 26, we add in picks 70, 71, 72 & 73?

Agree with you that we are having an each way bet - but probably going further to say that's exactly what we should be doing.

WCE actually have a strong history of getting back to being competitive, I'd back them to do it before North does.

 

[fairbump_playon]

WCE actually have a strong history of getting back to being competitive, I'd back them to do it before North does.

Yeah it will be interesting - a great A/B test of draft opportunity vs winning culture

Aligns with my point though.. we need to learn how to win more than we need to do a nuclear rebuild

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Do we have a style of football we're trying to play under Scott? Is that visible yet?

I don't think we've had a consistent one in 15 years, which will happen when you chance coaches every 2 years.

 

[jdstorm]

You're right that it's not a nuclear rebuild.

But gee I hated those days about 10-15 years ago when it felt like most teams were openly saying "we're not in the window and won't be for 5 years".

Try to win FFS.. relatively soon. Every team should be able to win within 4 years if they do everything right. The one possible exception is WCE who have only themselves to blame for the multi-layered mess their club is in.

Pushing out the likes of Redman & Parish for draft capital t is 1) a bad idea in a weak draft, and 2) likely to have us just as crap in 5 years as we are now, as the new replacement edition Redman and Parish get to 23 years old and turn out to be only good players and not superstars.

Also - cheapish FA when we have massive salary cap space... what do people think was the alternative? Take ten picks to the draft and instead of getting Goldstein plus 3 good players between 22 & 26, we add in picks 70, 71, 72 & 73?

Agree with you that we are having an each way bet - but probably going further to say that's exactly what we should be doing.

To be fair I think calling it an each way bet is wrong.

We are aquiring under 25 yr old talent. It’s the same thing every rebuilding team is doing.

Talent acquisition leads to depth leads to being able to consolidate talent into high picks or stars depending on what’s available.

It’s just based on essendons list and cap position this is/has been the best way to add talent.

 

[Milanista28]

A couple of our biggest deficiencies, lack of resilience and resistance.

We'll lose a game because it's too hot or it's raining, we need to get our mentality right, I think we're slowly improving this part of our game.

Another thing that will help is having a clean bill of health, if we can have a 24-36 month period of our full squad available for both AFL and VFL football our performance will rise dramatically.