Team Mgmt. Makeup of our team II - Strengths & deficiencies, player development

[bombreys]

Two of those guys got delisted without anyone picking them up. It's not like they were banging the door down. Voss is also a medium forward competing with Stringer / Langford not a KPF height or playstyle.

Could they have played? Sure. Is it some kind of grievous offence that they didn't such that it's a checkmark against Scott? No one but you seems to think so.

I don't see it as a 'grievous offence' - more that if they did play, then the 'we're so young' excuse would hold a little more weight.

And I don't think it's a mark against Scott - but I'd personally be annoyed if he played Weideman over Baldwin in 2024, for example.

 

[faible]

I don't see it as a 'grievous offence' - more that if they did play, then the 'we're so young' excuse would hold a little more weight.

And I don't think it's a mark against Scott - but I'd personally be annoyed if he played Weideman over Baldwin in 2024, for example.

But we were young, consistently fielding quite a young and inexperienced side.

Tsatas, Davey, Baldwin, Cox, Perkins, Hobbs, Durham, Bryan, Jones, Martin, Caldwell and Menzie were all 22 or under all H&A season and all played at AFL level for varying numbers of games.

That’s 12 players out of the 34 total players we used for the season.

 

[Old Campaigner]

Bryan, Baldwin, Voss & Montgomerie only played 12 games between them. Easier to say in hindsight, but they probably should have played more.

cmon champ, did you watch any VFL at all? Voss was... not great. Give guys games in the seniors without showing really good form in the 2s first and your selection integrity starts to break down.

Defense was the one area we had reasonable coverage so it's not totally surprising Montgomerie and Baldwin missed out. Bryan got games when appropriate.

Baldwin is probably the one who (from the outside at least) could've played a bit more based on the form he showed, but one player seemingly missing out is hardly indicative of a failure to 'play the kids'.

 

[fairbump_playon]

Scott had a chance to see Voss early season and a chance to call up Montgomerie about two thirds through and didn’t. Also let Baldwin languish a bit.

I would rate him at about 6 or 7 out of ten on the play the kids scale, if 1 is “no one ever gets a shot, full stop” and 10 is “screw it, let’s have a look”

Personally last year I would have preferred him to be an 8 ha ha. So he’s there or thereabouts. No big deal.

 

[bombreys]

But we were young, consistently fielding quite a young and inexperienced side.

Tsatas, Davey, Baldwin, Cox, Perkins, Hobbs, Durham, Bryan, Jones, Martin, Caldwell and Menzie were all 22 or under all H&A season and all played at AFL level for varying numbers of games.

That’s 12 players out of the 34 total players we used for the season.

We did mix in some younger guys - I'm feeling like maybe I didn't explain my original point well, being in 2024, we'll be about the same age as Carlton, Melbourne, etc. were this year (2023 season). Potentially a bit older if we're at full strength. We've added a 35, 26, 23 & 26 year old, all of whom I'd guess will be in the Round 1 side if healthy. The time for using youth as an excuse is now over.

 

[bombreys]

cmon champ, did you watch any VFL at all? Voss was... not great. Give guys games in the seniors without showing really good form in the 2s first and your selection integrity starts to break down.

Defense was the one area we had reasonable coverage so it's not totally surprising Montgomerie and Baldwin missed out. Bryan got games when appropriate.

Baldwin is probably the one who (from the outside at least) could've played a bit more based on the form he showed, but one player seemingly missing out is hardly indicative of a failure to 'play the kids'.

Take a breath bud. I'd say Voss was pretty good overall - he did enough to win the B&F. He had a really strong start to the year - then I think he may have cracked it he couldn't break into the senior side and had a really ordinary stretch in the middle of the year. I then thought he finished pretty well. Voss was also just an example.

After losing to the Giants by 20+ goals, why not give him a go? Instead of bringing in Weideman, who had proved to be terrible at AFL level - and who had been playing in defense in the VFL.

 

[Call Me Cake]

We did mix in some younger guys - I'm feeling like maybe I didn't explain my original point well, being in 2024, we'll be about the same age as Carlton, Melbourne, etc. were this year (2023 season). Potentially a bit older if we're at full strength. We've added a 35, 26, 23 & 26 year old, all of whom I'd guess will be in the Round 1 side if healthy. The time for using youth as an excuse is now over.

You're wrong though.

Heppell is not best 22.

Shiel is not best 22.

None of these guys should be here in 2025. These are not the guys we're relying on to take us beyond 2024, nor the guys we're expecting to improve us/take us to a next level this year. Goldy wouldn't be playing if Draper was fully fit and shouldn't be with us in a depth capacity in 2025.

Take these 3 out and we're currently 22.7 in average age even WITH the addition of McKay, Gresham and Duursma.

The average you're citing is grossly misrepresentative of the overall list demographic and highly misleading. Carlton and Melbourne did and do rely on their older players as certain best 22 players - contributors for 2024 that they're expecting to be there in 2025.

It isn't the same and you know it. If you actually gave up a more convincing argument than "hurr Hepp" (who we were all expecting to resign last year) then I'd agree with you, so it's not a matter of bias. Just think you're being delusional for the sake of being delusional. Give it a rest.

 

[faible]

Voss was also just an example.

He's basically the only example you've got.

He simply wasn't that good. Winning a VFL B&F in a weak side after playing every game doesn't mean he's suddenly an AFL quality KPF.

He's undersized for a KPF without any of the tricks needed to make it work at AFL level. He could have played but it wouldn't have changed what he was, and he would still have been delisted.

This is a really strange hill to die on.

 

[Old Campaigner]

Take a breath bud. I'd say Voss was pretty good overall - he did enough to win the B&F. He had a really strong start to the year - then I think he may have cracked it he couldn't break into the senior side and had a really ordinary stretch in the middle of the year. I then thought he finished pretty well. Voss was also just an example.

After losing to the Giants by 20+ goals, why not give him a go? Instead of bringing in Weideman, who had proved to be terrible at AFL level - and who had been playing in defense in the VFL.

Dig up turbo

Talk to some actual VFL watchers and listen to their thoughts on Voss’s AFL chances. He was never really in contention based on his VFL performance.

 

[Bombers36]

As it stands heading into 2024 we will have;-

small defenders: McGrath Hind ADavey Laul Roberts
medium defenders: Redman Heppell Kelly
key defenders: McKay Ridley Laverde Reid Baldwin Hayes
rucks: Draper Bryan Goldstein Visneti
mids: Merrett Parish Hobbs Setterfield Shiel Caldwell Tsatas
wings: Martin Durham Duursma
small forwards: Gresham Menzie Guelfi Wanga JDavey
medium forwards: Langford Stringer Perkins Caddy
key forwards: 2MP Jones Hunter

utilities: Cox Weideman


It is interesting we have 1 or 2 top line players across each line - BUT - after that it falls away pretty quickly.
That said we have lots of largely untried/unproven talent there - i.e. Reid, Caddy, Cox, Tsatas, Hunter - if a couple of these guys can cement themselves in the team in 2024 we will be in really solid shape and may even be able to push to win a final.
We certainly aren't the best list in the AFL, but far from the worst..Right now we are somewhere in the middle which is reflected by our mid range ladder position

 

[Yoda_]

All the kids who didn’t get an opportunity were perennially injured, not good enough or returning from injury

See Tex, Reid, Davey etc.. even Tsatas it took weeks at VFL level before earning a senior debut


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[Vindicater]

Arguable.

I'd have probably rather see Voss than Weideman at one stage during the year - and I think we'd have been a better team playing Montgomerie over Heppell at some stages.

Voss had one section of good play in the VFL and it coincided with us being 5-2 in the AFL and Weideman being decent. Other than that he was average and had no real AFL attribute.

Montgomerie struggled to kick accurately or dangerously at VFL level. What makes you think he would have been any better at AFL?

There was a reason both were cut.

 

[bombreys]

You're wrong though.

Heppell is not best 22.

Shiel is not best 22.

None of these guys should be here in 2025. These are not the guys we're relying on to take us beyond 2024, nor the guys we're expecting to improve us/take us to a next level this year. Goldy wouldn't be playing if Draper was fully fit and shouldn't be with us in a depth capacity in 2025.

Take these 3 out and we're currently 22.7 in average age even WITH the addition of McKay, Gresham and Duursma.

The average you're citing is grossly misrepresentative of the overall list demographic and highly misleading. Carlton and Melbourne did and do rely on their older players as certain best 22 players - contributors for 2024 that they're expecting to be there in 2025.

It isn't the same and you know it. If you actually gave up a more convincing argument than "hurr Hepp" (who we were all expecting to resign last year) then I'd agree with you, so it's not a matter of bias. Just think you're being delusional for the sake of being delusional. Give it a rest.

Can you honestly explain to me how you think Heppell isn't best 22? If he didn't get dropped after his first quarter of the season this year, he's never, ever going to be be out of the 22 as long as he's on the list.

Heppell is best 22. As is Sheil. Whether you think they're gifted games/deserve to be in the 22 or not is irrelevant - if they're playing every week, they're best 22. That doesn't come down to opinion, if they play every week, they're factually best 22 players.

Let's say this is our team in 2024:

FB: McGrath (25) - McKay (26) - Redman (26)
HB: Heppell (31) - Laverde (28) - Ridley (25)
C: Martin (23) - Setterfield (26) - Durham (22)
HF: Langford (27) - Weideman (26) - Stringer (30)
FF: Menzie (21) - Wright (27) - Gresham (26)
R: Goldstein (35) - Merrett (28) - Parish (26)
Int: Perkins (22) - Caldwell (23) - Kelly (29) - Duursma (23) / Hobbs (20)
(Inj: Draper, Shiel)

That gives us an average age of 26.

The list is young. The 22 is not.

 

[bombreys]

Voss had one section of good play in the VFL and it coincided with us being 5-2 in the AFL and Weideman being decent. Other than that he was average and had no real AFL attribute.

Montgomerie struggled to kick accurately or dangerously at VFL level. What makes you think he would have been any better at AFL?

There was a reason both were cut.

Agree with everything you said (though I thought Voss finished okay after a big lull mid season) - not arguing against that at all

 

[bombreys]

He's basically the only example you've got.

He simply wasn't that good. Winning a VFL B&F in a weak side after playing every game doesn't mean he's suddenly an AFL quality KPF.

He's undersized for a KPF without any of the tricks needed to make it work at AFL level. He could have played but it wouldn't have changed what he was, and he would still have been delisted.

This is a really strange hill to die on.

No, he wasn't that good - but Weideman also went goalless 7 weeks in a row and wasn't that good either.

Trying Voss quite literally couldn't have hurt us any more than Weideman.

I'm just saying we can't use the 'we're just so young' thing forever - especially when a lot of them don't play at AFL level. The age of the list means very little compared to the age of the 22 that go out and play every week. In 2024, said 22 isn't going to be all that young - and will be at the very least comparable with multiple teams that end up finishing in the top 8.

 

[Duster]

Can you honestly explain to me how you think Heppell isn't best 22? If he didn't get dropped after his first quarter of the season this year, he's never, ever going to be be out of the 22 as long as he's on the list.

Is your argument here that Heppell will be best 22 this year because he played games last year? My argument is that he played as many games as he did last year because the team lacks on-field leadership. A flaw that comes from being such a young side. Which we were, and will continue to be this year.

 

[bombreys]

Is your argument here that Heppell will be best 22 this year because he played games last year? My argument is that he played as many games as he did last year because the team lacks on-field leadership. A flaw that comes from being such a young side. Which we were, and will continue to be this year.

Yes, pretty much - he played every game available in 2023 and has done his whole career, irrelevant of form.

If your argument is that 'we will continue to be' a young side in 2024, then we'll need his on-field leadership again, won't we?

 

[jannissary]

All the kids who didn’t get an opportunity were perennially injured, not good enough or returning from injury

See Tex, Reid, Davey etc.. even Tsatas it took weeks at VFL level before earning a senior debut


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i think wrt to tsatas he just didn't have a preseason because of his injury right? we've made some bad decisions with selection but i think he actually needed that time in the VFL to get his body right for proper football

 

[Old Campaigner]

i think wrt to tsatas he just didn't have a preseason because of his injury right? we've made some bad decisions with selection but i think he actually needed that time in the VFL to get his body right for proper football

Also dropping an 18yo into the seniors without demonstrating any form in the VFL probably isn't great for club culture

 

[Duster]

Yes, pretty much - he played every game available in 2023 and has done his whole career, irrelevant of form.

If your argument is that 'we will continue to be' a young side in 2024, then we'll need his on-field leadership again, won't we?

Maybe. Maybe not. Would really depend on the natural improvement that the younger players have and also the leadership qualities of McKay, Goldstein and Gresham. Three mature players in three different sectors of the ground.

 

[TheUnicorn]

 

[Petrify]

Shiel is not best 22.

Fit Shiel was absolutely best 22 last year. Was easily one of our best players early on in the year

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Take a breath bud. I'd say Voss was pretty good overall - he did enough to win the B&F. He had a really strong start to the year - then I think he may have cracked it he couldn't break into the senior side and had a really ordinary stretch in the middle of the year. I then thought he finished pretty well. Voss was also just an example.

After losing to the Giants by 20+ goals, why not give him a go? Instead of bringing in Weideman, who had proved to be terrible at AFL level - and who had been playing in defense in the VFL.

Voss's year wasn't anywhere near as bad as it's made out to be. Over the first 4 weeks of the season he had a bunch of AFL listed help and was shining. Injuries started to hit the AFL side and he was left without much support right as we proceeded to play 7 of the top 10 teams in a row. His form started to improve by the end of the year when we got more support back but got overshadowed by a few more mature players in Hunter and Stewart late in the year.

Is it the worst delisting ever, no, but it's kinda unfair to point to his form dropping. Prime Carey would have struggled with only Snelling, Narkle, Conforti, Cootee and Rasninac kicking the ball to you.

 

[MiguelM]

Next need we have is some pure speed, Hill like.

Maybe the Davey's can step up but we need one at least to eventually replace Hind. A genuine line breaker.

 

[Vindicater]

Voss's year wasn't anywhere near as bad as it's made out to be. Over the first 4 weeks of the season he had a bunch of AFL listed help and was shining. Injuries started to hit the AFL side and he was left without much support right as we proceeded to play 7 of the top 10 teams in a row. His form started to improve by the end of the year when we got more support back but got overshadowed by a few more mature players in Hunter and Stewart late in the year.

Is it the worst delisting ever, no, but it's kinda unfair to point to his form dropping. Prime Carey would have struggled with only Snelling, Narkle, Conforti, Cootee and Rasninac kicking the ball to you.

Prime Carey would kick 10 goals a game in the VFL no matter his midfield.