Malthouse V Buckley

[loki04]

This is the biggest furfy with MM....

Fraser #1 pick
And the almighty trading stuff up to ensure the pies snaffled S.McKee......but missed PAV
Richards, another highly rated junior ruck
Wood, traded our first rnd pick for him
Jolly, traded first and third rnd pick for him

That is a fair investment in ruck stocks....they just aint come off.......it would be brilliant to pick a Cox or Sandilands off the rookie draft, aint happened tho

But the pies have invested plenty of resources into the ruck spot under MM.



You bemoan the ruck, then criticise for keeping a talented junior ruck on the list.......how can MM win?

Talented? you got to be kidding people were calling for this unco spud to be delisted in 05.

Wood and Jolly he got in year 9 and 10.

Fraser was the only 1 in year 1 of Malthouse taking over because we had NO rucks,nd was a clear stand out Jnr.

We didn't even try to get a option in the mid range of the draft between Richards and Woods recruitment instead tried to turn BBallers like fanning into one, many other teams picked up a useful 2nd option some even a 1st ruck with mid range picks 2nd rnd onwards.

Malthouse himself has tried to play 1 ruckmen for years still did last year, you need a decent competitive 2nd ruck, L.Brown is not a competent 2nd option.
We now have a great Ruck stock but it took a long time for him to get it right.


Malthouse has been quoted saying he didn't rate the ruckmans role a few season's back.

 

[Chaz Pendlebury]

I'm pretty happy where we are as a club right now.

10 years is a long time at as coach of a club without a flag but I reckon he's next two years are his best chance, in terms of quality of the list, and he's finishing up at the end of it anyway

Right now we have, IMO, the most talented and balanced list we've had in memory, there have just been a couple of teams of more a more matured talent in the last couple of years. I don't think they have fallen short through lake of intent and purpose

I don't think that foaming out the mouth with the lack of instant success and slaying coaches every few years is a recipe for a club having sustained success

And I'm not sure what the benefit of having this kind of debate on the main board is. Perhaps some people think they might get a bit more support here?

 

[mattys123]

As Leigh Matthews pointed out the list is 80% of premiership success, and you would imagine he knows a bit about the caper.

I forgot about that statement, and considering Matthews recruited very few of the Brisbane premiership players (or at least the "stars"), and also got very lucky at Collingwood (best under 19 team ever in 1986, year he joined the pies), I guess you could say Matthews was "lucky".

But then again, I don't believe Matthews when he says 80% of premiership success is the list, because to put it bluntly, who puts the list together, answer, the coach and recruiting staff, so shouldn't they have more then a 20% influence on a list.

You would think so.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I don't think that foaming out the mouth with the lack of instant success and slaying coaches every few years is a recipe for a club having sustained success

It makes some people feel a bit better, though.

There is no historical evidence to prove that coaches with short term appointments have any more success than coaches who are allowed a little more time.

In fact history will tell you that unsuccessful clubs are notorious at throwing out the baby with the bathwater at regular intervals (eg Richmond, StKilda, Bulldogs) and never able to break the cycle by trying something different like sticking by a plan and giving a coach a little more time than the populists would like.

 

[Chaz Pendlebury]

It makes some people feel a bit better, though.

There is no historical evidence to prove that coaches with short term appointments have any more success than coaches who are allowed a little more time.

In fact history will tell you that unsuccessful clubs are notorious at throwing out the baby with the bathwater at regular intervals (eg Richmond, StKilda, Bulldogs) and never able to break the cycle by trying something different like sticking by a plan and giving a coach a little more time than the populists would like.

Yep, didn't spell it out but that is what I was implying, and is true in other sports as well.

Malthouse has no doubt made mistakes and sniffed the breeze incorrectly on occasions but we are in a solid position on and off the field (failed pubs venture aside) and we know he has two years left, premiership or not.....and it's February not October...

 

[loki04]

I'm pretty happy where we are as a club right now.

10 years is a long time at as coach of a club without a flag but I reckon he's next two years are his best chance, in terms of quality of the list, and he's finishing up at the end of it anyway

Right now we have, IMO, the most talented and balanced list we've had in memory, there have just been a couple of teams of more a more matured talent in the last couple of years. I don't think they have fallen short through lake of intent and purpose

I don't think that foaming out the mouth with the lack of instant success and slaying coaches every few years is a recipe for a club having sustained success

And I'm not sure what the benefit of having this kind of debate on the main board is. Perhaps some people think they might get a bit more support here?

I agree with the gist of your post but the bolded :

You make it sound like he has only been in the position for 5 years, most the anti MM sentiment started in 08. That's 8 years into a 12 year term, so it's not like has hasn't been given his fair crack at it.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

You make it sound like he has only been in the position for 5 years, most the anti MM sentiment started in 08. That's 8 years into a 12 year term, so it's not like has hasn't been given his fair crack at it.

Nobody is denying he hasnt been there a long time. But how relevant to 2010 are the mistakes made in 2002?

If he had been replaced three or four years ago with another coach (lets say Mark Williams who is an ex Collingwood Captain and one of the hottest coaching properties in 2006, being a recent premiership coach) we'd be no nearer a flag than we are now. In fact we'd probably be further away.

 

[Pie eyed]

Talented? you got to be kidding people were calling for this unco spud to be delisted in 05.

Wood and Jolly he got in year 9 and 10.

Fraser was the only 1 in year 1 of Malthouse taking over because we had NO rucks,nd was a clear stand out Jnr.

We didn't even try to get a option in the mid range of the draft between Richards and Woods recruitment instead tried to turn BBallers like fanning into one, many other teams picked up a useful 2nd option some even a 1st ruck with mid range picks 2nd rnd onwards.

Malthouse himself has tried to play 1 ruckmen for years still did last year, you need a decent competitive 2nd ruck, L.Brown is not a competent 2nd option.
We now have a great Ruck stock but it took a long time for him to get it right.


Malthouse has been quoted saying he didn't rate the ruckmans role a few season's back.

I can well understand your frustration with the ruck, but you can't say we did not try to pick up a ruckman. The fact is they did not come up to expectation.
Them's the breaks. It's not like we passed on any of the 1000's of quality ruckman that were available at our pick or on the trade table is it.

As to Malthouse comments, if you don't have a trio of good ruckman and you have work your game plan around that reality why would you advertise the fact. What would he have said? What would you have said?

 

[Chaz Pendlebury]

I agree with the gist of your post but the bolded :

You make it sound like he has only been in the position for 5 years, most the anti MM sentiment started in 08. That's 8 years into a 12 year term, so it's not like has hasn't been given his fair crack at it.

Dude, 8 years without a flag is a long coaching stint, granted. But in 07 and 08 we finished "ahead of the curve" given the the development stage of the list (and injuries suspensions in terms of 08). Last year we finished where we expected, which, again, was quite high given the relative experience of the team. This year there are no excuses as our list is a year older, not many key players on the wrong side of the prime, and two new experienced additions filling key gaps. And at the end of next year the list is handed over to Bucks

If we had bottomed out post 02/03 slowly, and 04/05 happened in 06/07 Malthouse would probably be gone. However I am quite confident with where we are at atm, and am looking forward to the season starting

 

[jimmy35]

This is what Malthouse is great at:

http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/newsfeatures/news/newsarticle/tabid/5586/newsid/89418/default.aspx

He is a master at developing young talent and getting the best out of players, a role I hope he continues after Bucks takes over.

We played 21 under 23 year olds last year, I don't think many realize how good this succession plan is. Buckley will be receiving a list perfectly honed and primed by a master developer of youth with the bulk of that list entering mature age.

Sounds good in theory. Let's hope Bucks is a good coach.

 

[FuManchu]

We are just getting over the short sighted recruiting malthouse undertook when he took over, recruiting the likes of Steinfort, McKee, Rintoul, etc etc, whilst good in the short term to the point that we nearly stole a flag on a wet day in 2002, it was shown up for what it was the following year and the subsequent two years. its only since we bottomed out that the remanats of that short term recruiting have slowly dissapeared. So which ever way you look at it, malthouse has made our club pay for his short term strategy to get the club near to the top in a very short time.

At the time we rejoiced, some great coaching indeed, but now because it fell short of the mark, it is a very hollow feeling that we came so close. Now in this second phase of his coaching stint, the list rebuilding whilst OK, is still well short of the mark. He has never got the stars to align, and a good coach with a good recruiting strategy/ recruiting team and a innovative game plan needs to get all the stars to align. He has failed in this. One on field area recovers, another goes into decline.

A coach has to be excellent in all things that effect onfield performances, he just has never got it right at the club. A new way of looking at how to advance the club needs to be taken, his way hasnt worked for 10 years!

 

[evo]

Downgrading your pick to get Chad Morrisson (hehe) was a bit of short sighted error too. It cost you Lewis in favour of Egan.

 

[FuManchu]

It makes some people feel a bit better, though.

There is no historical evidence to prove that coaches with short term appointments have any more success than coaches who are allowed a little more time.

In fact history will tell you that unsuccessful clubs are notorious at throwing out the baby with the bathwater at regular intervals (eg Richmond, StKilda, Bulldogs) and never able to break the cycle by trying something different like sticking by a plan and giving a coach a little more time than the populists would like.

I'll tell you what else history is proving: If you dont change a losing formula, you keep losing. Some clubs are opting to lose at a higher level (ie:4th) than losing at a lower level. In the end, its still losing. History has shown of recent times tho, that if you bottom out (Hawthorn), you can hit the top very soon after, it also shows us that if you maintain the middle ranks for a sustained period, you are destined to stay in the same area for a sustained period due to a lack of elite drafting opportunities. You cant afford to trade away good players for elite picks because they are what are keeping you at that level. And you obviously dont have elite players because you are not at the very top.

 

[DNine]

After this year, it will be all put to bed. Collingwood WILL win the premiership this year. We have improved out of sight, with the signings of Jolly, Ball and Buckley, and with Beams, Sidebottom and other youngsters one year older, I can't see how we won't win it. Also look out for two tanks in Reid and Brown regularly killing it in defence for us this year. The list goes on and on.

Geelong have went backwards, with the retirement of Harley, and the cocaine sniffing Stokes, tainting the club, as bad as Didak and Shaw tainted us in previous years. As well as you need the fire definately in the belly in the best of times to win a flag, and history shows the fire doesn't burn so brightly the year after a flag. Conjecture that Ablett is sign sealed and delivered in Gold Coast, so they're out. Saints lost Ball, and a rapist Lovett which cost them their top pick, so both our major competitors are in trouble already. They ran on pure luck last year, when formally injury prone players, FOR ONCE didn't get injured.

They will need LUCK, and we having just lost two preliminaries, will step up in 2010, and we are due for Luck, Geelong and Saints luck have run out. No other team is good enough to beat the Pies when it counts...you'll see, then you'll just have to get used to it.

And then NO CHANCE, you can pretend to be a Collingwood supporter, so you don't get backlash, as you have done this time with Geelong. Too often people with strong viewpoints, hijack the form side, so then other posters can't say, "well you can talk, look at your own side". Geelong is a very safe side to say you barack for at the moment. Most probably a few years ago he was saying he was a Lions supporter, throwing comments around, on faults on other sides. Truth is, you most probably barack for Richmond, and are too afraid to say it. Fake name, fake team, why the hell would anyone take you seriously, let alone talk about it for 12 pages.
True Geelong supporters right now, are bathing in 2009 glory, they have no interest in what the Pies are doing. True Geelong supporters, couldn't give a rats about Malthouse/Buckley or any of the ageing players with diminishing value for our side. You however, don't fit this group.

 

[FuManchu]

After this year, it will be all put to bed. Collingwood WILL win the premiership this year. We have improved out of sight, with the signings of Jolly, Ball and Buckley, and with Beams, Sidebottom and other youngsters one year older, I can't see how we won't win it. Also look out for two tanks in Reid and Brown regularly killing it in defence for us this year. The list goes on and on.

Geelong have went backwards, with the retirement of Harley, and the cocaine sniffing Stokes, tainting the club, as bad as Didak and Shaw tainted us in previous years. As well as you need the fire definately in the belly in the best of times to win a flag, and history shows the fire doesn't burn so brightly the year after a flag. Conjecture that Ablett is sign sealed and delivered in Gold Coast, so they're out. Saints lost Ball, and a rapist Lovett which cost them their top pick, so both our major competitors are in trouble already. They ran on pure luck last year, when formally injury prone players, FOR ONCE didn't get injured.

They will need LUCK, and we having just lost two preliminaries, will step up in 2010, and we are due for Luck, Geelong and Saints luck have run out. No other team is good enough to beat the Pies when it counts...you'll see, then you'll just have to get used to it.

And then NO CHANCE, you can pretend to be a Collingwood supporter, so you don't get backlash, as you have done this time with Geelong. Too often people with strong viewpoints, hijack the form side, so then other posters can't say, "well you can talk, look at your own side". Geelong is a very safe side to say you barack for at the moment. Most probably a few years ago he was saying he was a Lions supporter, throwing comments around, on faults on other sides. Truth is, you most probably barack for Richmond, and are too afraid to say it. Fake name, fake team, why the hell would anyone take you seriously, let alone talk about it for 12 pages.
True Geelong supporters right now, are bathing in 2009 glory, they have no interest in what the Pies are doing. True Geelong supporters, couldn't give a rats about Malthouse/Buckley or any of the ageing players with diminishing value for our side. You however, don't fit this group.

Aha, Dnine, you have come back to the fold, but this time you are supporting Malthouse!!!!

 

[FuManchu]

You need to have a good look at the differing stages the club has transitioned thorugh under MM.

Look at it!!!! I have had to live it!!!

Initially a rabble, with a couple of gems. Solid recruiting campaign, where he bought in plenty of senior talent in addition to the sprinkling of gun draft picks, ie Josh and Dids. Then he took a fragile list, heavy in top end talent, but with no depth to back to back GFs......fell at last hurdle to a great side.

Not doubting he did well in those first 3 or so years. But some of the recruiting he did, was very short term and in the end, we didnt get the flag and the short term recruiting actually hamstrung us. malthouse did well to get us almost up in 2002, but the 2003 GF was indicative of where his short term and flawed recruiting strategies had taken us.

2004 and 05 we paid dearly for his shocking recruiting priorites

Next stage, realisation of the lack of quality depth and cleanout....result being couple of years in the wilderness in 04&05.

see above

Then inflates resurgance in 06&07......the stars of 02-03 were back in good form, one last hurrah from them.......but alas they were no longer the same as 02&03.

We were on the rise, but the roccas and co of this world had limited usefulness and our real shot was 2007, after that it was rebuild again.

The last two years the club has moved away from all the old stars: Bucks, Burns, Clement, Wakelin, Rocca, Licca, Taz are all gone.........new breed taken over and the club is making ground.....

There was only one star in that group, another extremely good player, one very good player and a few good players. Dont overestimate the rating of that group. The group was well drilled in its game plan, but the game plan has been in existance since at least 2002, they should have been well drilled.

Things have changed under MM,

no they havent, same game plan as 8 years ago

now we are positioned to have a solid 3-4 yr assault at a flag

Isnt that what most supporters were saying after 2007, 08 and eddie definitely said it at the start of last year. I keep hearing about being at the doorstep of this flag. I saw us 13 goals away from it last September. Where are we going to make up 13 goals? Because that is a pretty good indication of what the real gap is.

......is MM the best game day coach to get us there.......

H eis without doubt one of the worst game day coaches out there! A game plan dating most of the last decade, one that has pfailed to deliver the goods, one that is torn to bits by certain type sides. Where is his plan B against sides that start tearing us to shreds. He stubbornly refuses to shift players who are getting soundly beaten. Riewoldt 2008 semi, mcleod rd 1 2009 and god knows how many other examples.

most think he almost pinched one back in 02 with a very inferior list!

He nearly did, but guess what .............HE DIDNT PINCH IT. You can only carry those browny points for so long. 8 years after the event, its a little irrelevant that he nearly won a GF. Its been 16 years since he has. He is not an innovative coach, he has no plan B, he is defnesive in nature and constantly opts for workmanlike players as opposed to flair. He has killed off Daisy thomas' flair as an example of drowning players in his ethos on the game. He is and will always be a back pocket player by nature, safety first. And teams that have a dynamic player or two will kill us because we have no counter to them, and we have no dynamic player to take games by the scruff of the neck. He wouldnt know what to do with a dynamic type player, that would go against all his prinicples in how the game should be played We plod, they drive fast!

 

[Pie eyed]

Aha, Dnine, you have come back to the fold, but this time you are supporting Malthouse!!!!

Chelmsford? or someone's hijacked his body.

 

[Gavin Excell]

I'm to lazy to quote all of the previous comments but surely proof will be in the pudding.

Collingwood have a history of failiing to deliver whien it matters. Have no reason to think this will be any different in 2010

 

[DNine]

Aha, Dnine, you have come back to the fold, but this time you are supporting Malthouse!!!!

My opinion on Malthouse remains the same. Just shouldn't be a pretend Cat supporter to try and tell us where our downfalls are. I am not sticking up for MM. If Malthouse doesn't win the flag this year, it confirms what sort of a coach he was. I reckon Tony Shaw could steer this group to a flag.

We look bloody strong all around, with alot of backup everywhere. It was a BIG help that Jolly and Ball requested to come to us, and Simon Buckley may well turn out to be a suprise packet, from the inpatient Dees. I have not seen such players with such potential on top of an already Preliminary final side, be gifted such luck ever. And the way Brown and Reid are coming up, along with another tank in Dawes, surely we have the most impressive looking side. And look for Medhurst and Cloke to have turnaround years too. Leon may not be too injured next finals either, and I would hate to be up against him, trying to redeem his finals record. People think it is form, but he was injured. Maybe not so this year. We'll see anyway, but my prediction is top four for the next five years, with one-three flags in this period.

Hawthorn are the only side so far in the Nab cup, that could give us a challenge, and even them, are not as depthy as us. Just that Franklin and Roughead are the worry, without them, we would kill them in a final.

I have never, in any other season, talked the Pies up as much as I am this year. Now we just have to hope that injuries don't cruel us.

 

[NOCHANCE]

Shows how desperate Collingwood and Mick are for some sort of sucess with Maxwells quote in todays Herald Sun. Maxwell says they have recruited well and are in fine shape to have a real tilt at the wait for it
PRE SEASON CUP !!!!

Ross Lyon better re think resting 8 of his best next Friday night. Riewoldt on the same page speaks only of the tilt at real finals. Guess its more of how far away the Pies are that they have to play at full strength and full tilt in Feb. While the real contenders are just changing into second gear.

 

[FuManchu]

Its got nothing to do with the past its all for future improvement. The point is Collingwood are going all out to win a pre season comp. While a team like StKilda who many beleive now have the best fitness man in the AFL are still weeks from being ready. They are top loading now so there right for the firsty AFL game while Collingwood are ready almost 6 weeks out. Makes you wonder what there priorities are and if Micks doing it for himself.

Will it be hot next sunday?

 

[Lockyer24]

Its got nothing to do with the past its all for future improvement. The point is Collingwood are going all out to win a pre season comp. While a team like StKilda who many beleive now have the best fitness man in the AFL are still weeks from being ready. They are top loading now so there right for the first AFL game while Collingwood are ready almost 6 weeks out. Makes you wonder what there priorities are and if Micks doing it for himself.

It worked well for you last year, so why not us?

You didn't flog us in the Grand Final because you were going in 2nd gear either.

Geelong has a win at all costs attitude which we are trying to emulate. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Pie eyed]

Actually, what they know is a lot more about success than we can claim to know. And if staying in 2nd gear in the pre season means they are beating teams by 13 goals come the prelim finals, then I'd say he has a point!

I have to agree with that, but I hasten to add that you can't read too much into pre-NAB Cup chatter or even NAB Cup form if you're looking at the AFL season proper.

Every Club is in a different position and mindset regarding NAB Cup and in the context of the real stuff it is simply a tool for tinkering, discovery and fine tuning.
That's no reason for us supporters to not enjoy success, but it really matters little in the big picture unless injuries occur. That said I'd love to see the boys smash the Saints simply from a Luke Ball issue point of view.

 

[NOCHANCE]

It worked well for you last year, so why not us?

You didn't flog us in the Grand Final because you were going in 2nd gear either.

Geelong has a win at all costs attitude which we are trying to emulate. Nothing wrong with that.

Geelong went in with under strength sides all the way through and luck went our way and we progressed. During this time Thompson still rested players through out. Yes in the final which by the way is two weeks before the first game the chain was released but still had players rested.

Dont you find it interesting and strange your captain says your ready to have a tilt at the NAB CUP? While St Kilda couldnt care any less if they tried.

 

[FuManchu]

next please!! Clearly someone left your cage open this morning.

dont worry about him, he threatens people over the internet, but has no agates when confronted, runs like a screaming sheila. A well known pest that goes by the name of Dalai Lama