Marc Murphy and Bryce Gibbs

[HARKER]

To be fair to the OP, I think is has an arguable point.
Gibbs and Murphy have hardly been ripping it up, yet.
Yet!

We know they can and know they will, so I'm not minding a slow start to the season knowing what is to ensue

 

[TigerTime88]

Kerr has been injured constantly over the last few years so using him as an example is nothing more than a crock of s.hit. Have a look at a player like Pavlich who has played in ordinary Freo sides ever since you can remember yet he has been able to win his position and play consistantly well throughout the lean years that Freo have had without no help what so ever.Thats your definition of a gun player and not Deledio and your excuses and running real thin. A great player will always be a great player regardless of who he plays for and to suggest i have to have played footy at a decent level just to have an opinion on the matter just goes to show how deluded you are

Mate you are an idiot he has won 2 B&F's and was also named in the All Australian squad.

Ok how about you try the following midfielders who all played poorly when there side had lean years just for starters:

Bernie Vince (this year)
Dal Santo (dropped to VFL)
James McDonald (having a good year because MFC are...weird)
Luke Power (half the player he was once your mob dropped off)

Just watch Daniel Rich drop off the pace when Black and some of your other mature players retire champ. Your argument is laughable...too much sun up in Brisbane I think!

 

[le dominateur]

I doubt Lewis & Birchall would get a game at a top 8 club.

 

[shiva25]

Mate you are an idiot he has won 2 B&F's and was also named in the All Australian squad.

Ok how about you try the following midfielders who all played poorly when there side had lean years just for starters:

Bernie Vince (this year)
Dal Santo (dropped to VFL)
James McDonald (having a good year because MFC are...weird)
Luke Power (half the player he was once your mob dropped off)

Just watch Daniel Rich drop off the pace when Black and some of your other mature players retire champ. Your argument is laughable...too much sun up in Brisbane I think!

You are an absolute tool. Those players you mentioned above arnt even great players so you would expect their form to taper off from time to time regardless of whether they are in winning teams or not. Luke Power is not the same player he once was because he is now into his 30s and is ageing but he was never a gun player anyway.Jonathon Brown and Simon Black are still playing great footy and Brisbanes fall down the ladder hasnt affected their form over the years as they have both been consistantly good which makes your arguement very laughable in itself

 

[btdg]

This whole thread is just a troll, right?

To explain how Murphy and Gibbs are different to Deledio and Tambling, consider one simple statistic - Brownlow votes. A measure of how often a player is in the best 3 on the ground, or in fact, best of ground, as assessed by a neutral party (and although biased towards midfielders, all the players listed are midfielders or running defenders)

Murphy: 87 games, 28 votes, 4 x BOG. Best year 2009 (15 votes)
Gibbs: 73 games, 22 votes, 3 x BOG. Best year 2009 (15 votes)
Deledio: 113 games, 20 votes, 0 x BOG. Best year 2008 (8 votes)
Tambling: 101 games, 8 votes, 1 x BOG. Best year 2009 (5 votes)
Birchall: 91 games, 2 votes, 0 x BOG. Best year 2007 (2 votes)
Lewis: 109 games, 21 votes, 3 x BOG. Best year 2008 (9 votes)

Murphy and Gibbs are younger than any of those pairs, yet have considerably more Brownlow votes, and their best season is considerably better than anything produced by the others. Only Jordan Lewis could make a claim to contest, based on his late 2008 form in which he had 2 BOG performances late in the year, and went on to be an important player in a premiership team.

 

[shiva25]

This whole thread is just a troll, right?

To explain how Murphy and Gibbs are different to Deledio and Tambling, consider one simple statistic - Brownlow votes. A measure of how often a player is in the best 3 on the ground, or in fact, best of ground, as assessed by a neutral party (and although biased towards midfielders, all the players listed are midfielders or running defenders)

Murphy: 87 games, 28 votes, 4 x BOG. Best year 2009 (15 votes)
Gibbs: 73 games, 22 votes, 3 x BOG. Best year 2009 (15 votes)
Deledio: 113 games, 20 votes, 0 x BOG. Best year 2008 (8 votes)
Tambling: 101 games, 8 votes, 1 x BOG. Best year 2009 (5 votes)
Birchall: 91 games, 2 votes, 0 x BOG. Best year 2007 (2 votes)
Lewis: 109 games, 21 votes, 3 x BOG. Best year 2008 (9 votes)

Murphy and Gibbs are younger than any of those pairs, yet have considerably more Brownlow votes, and their best season is considerably better than anything produced by the others. Only Jordan Lewis could make a claim to contest, based on his late 2008 form in which he had 2 BOG performances late in the year, and went on to be an important player in a premiership team.

I dont think you can measure it that accurately based on Brownlow votes because usually brownlow votes are mostly awarded to the players who are in the winning teams so if your a player who plays in a side that wins more often than not youll have a greater chance of polling more votes but it doesnt necessarily mean they are better players than the better players playing for bottom clubs.

 

[GordonBlue]

I dont think you can measure it that accurately based on Brownlow votes because usually brownlow votes are mostly awarded to the players who are in the winning teams so if your a player who plays in a side that wins more often than not youll have a greater chance of polling more votes but it doesnt necessarily mean they are better players than the better players playing for bottom clubs.

and you think Murphy and Gibbs have been in more winning teams over their career than what the other 4 have?

I think it is a perfect way to show their dominance.

People aren't seeing the Murphy/Gibbs combo this year cause it has been an emphasis to have a more even contributors across the whole midfield

Carrots, Simpson, Scotland and Houla are all having their best years.

Judd is also having his best year at Carlton

Murphy is copping the number 1 tag and still playing very good... better than any of the other 4 players

Gibbs is been used as a half back not only to pick up possession... but shut down his man... in one game (i think it was Geelong) he had game high 10 spoils. He is the best kick out of all those player and easily the best decision maker

Murphy is clearly the best goal kicking midfielder out of all those (maybe even in the league)...

Murphy and Gibbs were two of the biggest reasons we made finals last year...

 

[btdg]

I dont think you can measure it that accurately based on Brownlow votes because usually brownlow votes are mostly awarded to the players who are in the winning teams so if your a player who plays in a side that wins more often than not youll have a greater chance of polling more votes but it doesnt necessarily mean they are better players than the better players playing for bottom clubs.

The votes tend to go to players in winning teams because good players make their teams win. Its rare that someone would be in the best 3 on the ground and their team would lose by definition - if you have the best 3 players on the ground on the day, there's a pretty good chance you'll win.

But for what its worth:

Marc Murphy: Career record: 29-51. Votes in a losing team x 4 (7 total votes)
Bryce Gibbs: Career record: 26-40. Votes in a losing team x 2 (3 total votes)
Brett Deledio: Career record: 40-3-63. Votes in a losing team x 4 (7 total votes)
Richard Tambling: Career record: 27-3-45. Votes in a losing team x 1 (1 total vote, although interestingly Tambling has twice polled votes in a draw in 3 matches)
Jordan Lewis: Career record: 50-52. Votes in a losing team x 2 (2 total votes)
Grant Birchall: Career record: 47-37. Votes in a losing team x 0

Firstly, looking at those stats, Murphy has by far the worst career winning percentage, so that doesn't explain Brownlow votes. He's managed to be in the top 3 players on the ground more frequently in losses than any other player, too. So Brownlow votes can't be discounted because they only go to winning players.

Secondly, Carlton's record has improved as Murphy and Gibbs have improved. Their best year, 2009, coincides with the best years of both players. Amazingly, there were 5 times last year that both received Brownlow votes. Carlton went 5-0 in those games (against Richmond, Brisbane, Bulldogs, North and Port). The fact is, they are match-winners, capable of playing at the highest level, and when they do so, Carlton are close to unbeatable.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Murphy gets a lot of his own ball and requires a solid tag these days.

Gibbs is a bit of a worry. Doesn't get into the game unless he's playing off half-back or someone is feeding it to him.

Also struggles in high intensity games.

 

[btdg]

Murphy gets a lot of his own ball and requires a solid tag these days.

Gibbs is a bit of a worry. Doesn't get into the game unless he's playing off half-back or someone is feeding it to him.

Also struggles in high intensity games.

I don't know that Gibbs is a 'worry' at this point. He turned 21 a month ago, yet finished top 10 in last years Brownlow medal.

He's been pretty damn good as a midfielder this year, too, starting to have an impact. Against Collingwood, he turned the game when he went into the midfield along with Judd and Murphy (we just couldn't sustain it and ran out of steam). Was close to best afield against Geelong, too. In terms of him 'struggling to get into the game', he has had 20 possessions or more in 27 out of 30 games going back to the start of last season. Fairly remarkable consistency - as a comparison, Judd had 20 touches in 21/23 games, and Murphy in 27/30 over the same period)

Admittedly, he didn't have a great game against Brisbane in the finals last year, but he did poll Brownlow votes last season in matches against Collingwood, Brisbane and the Bulldogs. The highest intensity game I've ever seen in person was Carlton-St Kilda last year, and Gibbs was ok there.

Most midfielder make 'The Leap' in the year they turn 23. Gibbs has 2 seasons to get there yet - and is already a pretty good player.

 

[Hodgepodge]

I don't know that Gibbs is a 'worry' at this point. He turned 21 a month ago, yet finished top 10 in last years Brownlow medal.
.

Who cares how he went in the chook raffle last year?

He's gone a step backwards this year. The biggest weakness in his game is that he tends to go missing when the intensity of the match lifts. This may be due to the way he plays the game more than anything else.

May not be the player everyone thought he was going to be.

 

[Kreuzerlenko]

May not be the player everyone thought he was going to be.

Sadly have to agree here. The term 'potential' gets thrown around alot when it concerns players like Murph and Gibbs, but at this stage Gibbs should be beginning to notice some of his massive potential, I'm not saying he should be the best player in the game, but he SHOULD be improving constantly and from what I've seen so far this year he hasn't. I don't think he's taken a step back, but not a step forward either. Time will tell I guess.

Murphy on the other hand I'm pretty happy with where he's at, just has to keep doing what he's doing IMO

 

[SA Blue]

Who cares how he went in the chook raffle last year?

He's gone a step backwards this year. The biggest weakness in his game is that he tends to go missing when the intensity of the match lifts. This may be due to the way he plays the game more than anything else.

May not be the player everyone thought he was going to be.

Best on ground by both coaches in the Geelong game.

Fail again flog

 

[kenhunter]

Who cares how he went in the chook raffle last year?

He's gone a step backwards this year. The biggest weakness in his game is that he tends to go missing when the intensity of the match lifts. This may be due to the way he plays the game more than anything else.

May not be the player everyone thought he was going to be.

have to agree, we had probably 15 players who went past him on Monday night, although thats got something to do with our amazing depth. That said, Xavier who???

ps nice to see you back hp maybe due to some confidence about beating richmond this w/end?

 

[blues4flag]

Ridiculous thread. Murphy was in our top 2 over the course of 2009 while Gibbs was our best in the last third of the season. Our supporters gave him 3 2nd BOGs and 4 BOGs between rounds 13 and 21. Was phenomenal.

Unfortunately, he's developing a trend of playing his best footy in the second half of seasons, ala Goodes. Did so in his 2nd and 3rd years and starting slowly again this season. In comparison, he only polled 9 in the first 11 last year, while he's on 6 from 7 games this season.

Not too worried at the moment but he needs to become more consistent with his intensity.

 

[chump]

Kerr has been injured constantly over the last few years so using him as an example is nothing more than a crock of s.hit. Have a look at a player like Pavlich who has played in ordinary Freo sides ever since you can remember yet he has been able to win his position and play consistantly well throughout the lean years that Freo have had without no help what so ever.Thats your definition of a gun player and not Deledio and your excuses and running real thin. A great player will always be a great player regardless of who he plays for and to suggest i have to have played footy at a decent level just to have an opinion on the matter just goes to show how deluded you are

I will also add Nathan Buckley to that list. For much of his earlier career at Collingwood, he was at a very poor team, yet he still performed at an elite level and was a cut above his teammates.

 

[btdg]

Best on ground by both coaches in the Geelong game.

Fail again flog

Yeah, I don't know where that comes from. Gibbs has routinely been amongst Carlton's best in our best performances. Last year, polled Brownlow votes in wins over Bulldogs, Collingwood, Brisbane and Geelong, and again this year. Still, if you have to bag a 21-yo, I guess you might as well make something up that is difficult to check.

For further reference to the 'bit worried' comment in relation to Gibbs, here are the total career Brownlow votes of some similarly rated young players at the same age (20) as him at the end of last season, with their best season to that point added.

Bryce Gibbs: 28 votes, best season age 20 (15)
Gary Ablett Jr: 6 votes, best season age 20 (3); made 'the leap' age 23
Chris Judd: 12 votes, best season age 20 (12); made 'the leap' age 21
Adam Cooney: 15 votes, best season age 19 (12); made 'the leap' age 23
Nathan Buckley: Had not played in AFL. Made 'the leap' age 26
Brendan Goddard: 3 votes, best season age 19 (3); made 'the leap' age 23
Luke Hodge: 9 votes, best season age 20 (4); made 'the leap' age 21? Lept again age 23
Nick Dal Santo: 17 votes, best season age 20 (12); made 'the leap' age 21,
James Bartel: 16 votes, best season age 20 (13); made 'the leap' age 23
Joel Selwood: 21 votes, best season age 20 (19); made the leap already? Maybe another one to come?

Of that crew, only Selwood has achieved more than Gibbs at the same age. In fact, I can't really think of a player who has done better than Gibbs to the same point in their career, at least in terms of match-winning performances.

Interestingly, when you look at the career of a lot of those guys, they make a big jump around age 20-21, then plateau for a bit, before making another leap. Observable with Bartel, Hodge, Judd and Dal Santo. But almost all had a significant improvement around age 23 - which is still 2 seasons away for Gibbs. 2 years time will be awesome to watch what happens from both Gibbs and Selwood

 

[mediumsizered]

Yeah, I don't know where that comes from. Gibbs has routinely been amongst Carlton's best in our best performances. Last year, polled Brownlow votes in wins over Bulldogs, Collingwood, Brisbane and Geelong, and again this year. Still, if you have to bag a 21-yo, I guess you might as well make something up that is difficult to check.

This type of fact is wasted on HP. He will go into a thread, make a ridiculous statement (i.e. troll), disappear for a few days until the thread dies off & then reappear again to add more untruths to the thread.

HP knows very little about the game & relies on what he reads from others to develop his opinions. You will get a more intelligent football discussion from the Auskick kids that Mark Howard interviews on Channel 10.

 

[Snoozer]

Seriously, you blokes have gotta stop using Brownlow votes as a reference. Woewodin, Hardie, Liberatore all won Brownlows... an award that is voted on by people who have as little credibility and feel for Aussie Rules football as possible; umpires. Club B&F's are a much better guide.

 

[btdg]

Seriously, you blokes have gotta stop using Brownlow votes as a reference. Woewodin, Hardie, Liberatore all won Brownlows... an award that is voted on by people who have as little credibility and feel for Aussie Rules football as possible; umpires. Club B&F's are a much better guide.

I'm using Brownlow votes because despite being voted by umpires, it is:
- neutral
- an indicator of a players influence on a match
- readily available via the AFL tables website in an accessible summary form for every game over the last few years.

If you want to find another source of evidence that is easy to use, easy to understand, and relevant to this debate, then go right ahead. But don't criticise the one available reference point we it isn't perfect. No indicator will be perfect. At least its better than nothing, better than just making bold statements with no evidence to support at all.

As for the the cheap Brownlows - Woewoedin was fantastic in his Brownlow year, and his latter performances didn't do him justice. Brad Hardie was unbelievable when he won his. Liberatore was perhaps a bit dubious, but that is how the cards fell at the time. Overall, the award has been pretty damn good. H

 

[Sezzac1]

I'm using Brownlow votes because despite being voted by umpires, it is:
- neutral
- an indicator of a players influence on a match
- readily available via the AFL tables website in an accessible summary form for every game over the last few years.

If you want to find another source of evidence that is easy to use, easy to understand, and relevant to this debate, then go right ahead. But don't criticise the one available reference point we it isn't perfect. No indicator will be perfect. At least its better than nothing, better than just making bold statements with no evidence to support at all.

As for the the cheap Brownlows - Woewoedin was fantastic in his Brownlow year, and his latter performances didn't do him justice. Brad Hardie was unbelievable when he won his. Liberatore was perhaps a bit dubious, but that is how the cards fell at the time. Overall, the award has been pretty damn good. H

btdg you know the old rule...............'Never argue with a fool because they only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience'

Couple of great posts.

All these anti Gibb flogs would love him in their teams.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Best on ground by both coaches in the Geelong game.

Fail again flog

How does that show his performances with higher intensity? Didn't the Geelong game end up as a blowout?

 

[Hodgepodge]

have to agree, we had probably 15 players who went past him on Monday night, although thats got something to do with our amazing depth. That said, Xavier who???

I honestly can't comment on who went past him on Friday night. It was a very even performance by the side.

ps nice to see you back hp maybe due to some confidence about beating richmond this w/end?

Unfortunately not. Much as you'd like to think otherwise, my posting volume is unaffected by the performance of my team. I've done most of my posting this season directly after losses.

 

[stevedarui]

Who cares how Rioli went last year?

He's gone a step backwards this year. The biggest weakness in his game is that he tends to go missing when the intensity of the match lifts. This may be due to the way he plays the game more than anything else.

May not be the player everyone thought he was going to be.

You are right as always Fudgepacker he has been disappointing this year.

 

[Hodgepodge]

You are right as always Fudgepacker he has been disappointing this year.

Oh, you edited a quoted post so that . . . yeah. Wow.