Media alert

[Gadzorks]

Brisbane Lions in line for $1.4m helping hand from AFL to boost football department spending

BRISBANE will miss out on a priority pick this season but could receive a $1.4 million cash injection to help it top up itsl”

This headline really p*sses me off. Instead of actually doing something for the lions they rebadge a league wide policy as a benevolent act that we should be grateful for. Bloody political trick for getting a pat on the back for nothing. We are still getting no help to address our specific issues such as location, lack of facilities, loss of critical player etc.

They can get stuffed - I'm not going to be any more grateful than the other 9 clubs that are getting the same benefit.

And if i the afl come out and try to claim it as measure for the lions I'm going have steam coming out of my ears.

 

[briztoon]

$1.4 mil is equal to about two years interest repayments on the debt that we owe the AFL. It would be better if they forgave most or all of the debt or restructured it so that it wasn't such a burden.

Should not the Loan from the AFL be interest free?

Who owns the Brisbane Lions?

 

[Triple R]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...ows-the-importance-of-belief?CMP=share_btn_tw

Great article on "Belief" in an AFL club.

 

[briztoon]

I don't know if they're the same people on here but on one hand I've seen calls for "a total cleanout....trade em' all!!!" and on the other, wailing and gnashing of teeth about lack of on-field leadership.

Critics can't have it both ways.

But yes, I agree getting rid of a large chunk of your better, more experienced players to get draft picks makes little sense to me.

We have enough skinny, underdeveloped kids on our list already.

Not everyone is suggesting to trade senior players for draft picks (but I was one of those people). Some people have suggested trading out older, senior players for younger models coming in to their prime.

As for the lack of leadership on the field. If the older players are not doing any leading on the field, which has been a criticism of them most of the season, then what use are they to the playing squad? If the senior players actually played liked they gave a sh!t, then no one (or very, very few people) would be suggesting to trade them.

 

[M Malice]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...ows-the-importance-of-belief?CMP=share_btn_tw

Great article on "Belief" in an AFL club.

agree, really interesting read. thanks for the link. never heard of mick ellis although i'm not a huge reader of footy articles.

 

[Fatcat08]

Should not the Loan from the AFL be interest free?

Who owns the Brisbane Lions?

members own the Brisbane lions, but we're underwritten by the afl otherwise we'd be insolvent

 

[SizeMatters]

I'm an advocate for a proper rebuild. We have done two half arsed attempts and it has failed on both occasions. We need eager young players and to fill in our lists requirements. I just can't see how having a toxic culture led by senior players is going to positively affect any new draftees we will be bringing in in the next few years. Would be going hard for any senior FA from the stronger clubs to add much needed leadership and professionalism to this young cohort of players.

 

[a mayes ing]

I'm an advocate for a proper rebuild. We have done two half arsed attempts and it has failed on both occasions. We need eager young players and to fill in our lists requirements. I just can't see how having a toxic culture led by senior players is going to positively affect any new draftees we will be bringing in in the next few years. Would be going hard for any senior FA from the stronger clubs to add much needed leadership and professionalism to this young cohort of players.

The problem with anither rebuild is that we need high end draft picks. 2 in the top 10 and 4 in the top 20. I can't see how we would get another pick in the top 10, doubt we would get a pick for our players except for Zorko and he should be untradeable. Plus if we traded out all our best players, it would mean more beltings like this year except it would be happening for another 3/4+ years, which i don't think we could survive if that happened.

I agree with going for any FA signings if they want to come in to provide leadership and professionalism. Ideally someone from a very good team, not Carlton. Whitecross would be good.

 

[snooplions]

I'm an advocate for a proper rebuild. We have done two half arsed attempts and it has failed on both occasions. We need eager young players and to fill in our lists requirements. I just can't see how having a toxic culture led by senior players is going to positively affect any new draftees we will be bringing in in the next few years. Would be going hard for any senior FA from the stronger clubs to add much needed leadership and professionalism to this young cohort of players.

I was thinking the same thing, with a focus on the midfield in particular through high draft picks like Melbourne have with petracca, brayshaw, Oliver etc. and it makes sense to me to do that because they'd all come through with our young key position players instead of having to rely on a dodgy midfield of 30 year olds when the young kpp are finally developed.

 

[JasRulz63]

Can our club sustain a full rebuild without losing top draft picks back to their home states after two years? Melbourne did it but all their young midfielders are Victorian, same as the Bulldogs. Of the good young players Melbourne has, the only non-Victorian of note is Hogan and there's been constant rumours about going back home to WA.

I agree we need a full rebuild, but I'm not sure how we keep our players while we're doing it.

 

[lioninthesand]

I would like to see a new coach, who is not cut from the 'premiership era / Leigh Matthews' cloth, be given a crack for 3 years before we go re-building our list AGAIN. We have quality players playing well below their best, a decent young spine (Andrews, Dizzy, Paps, Hipwood, Schache, Freeman) - we don't need to go taking all their senior support away. Who are these Guys who are so toxic anyway? Rich? he is the new whipping Boy, I don't want to get rid of Daniel Rich. Hanley? he is injured. Christiansen, Robbo, Basti, Bell, Walker, Beams have just been bought in, re-re-re building is not the answer, not without trying a new coaching panel and totally fresh approach to our footy department. People then point to this team doing the same thing to Voss, but 80% of the list has been turned over under Leppa. Anyway..this is Leppas re-build, so any further player cleanout would be done by a new coach.

Back to the media stuff: Does the $1.4m count over 5 years, or is it for one year only?

 

[jackess]

Can our club sustain a full rebuild without losing top draft picks back to their home states after two years? Melbourne did it but all their young midfielders are Victorian, same as the Bulldogs. Of the good young players Melbourne has, the only non-Victorian of note is Hogan and there's been constant rumours about going back home to WA.

I agree we need a full rebuild, but I'm not sure how we keep our players while we're doing it.

I was saying this a couple of years ago. Can our club actually execute a bottom out rebuild? It was always gonna rely on the players sharing Leppas faith that success is coming. A very difficult sell.

 

[SizeMatters]

I was saying this a couple of years ago. Can our club actually execute a bottom out rebuild? It was always gonna rely on the players sharing Leppas faith that success is coming. A very difficult sell.

what else can get worse? We are the the most rubbish team now and players are re-signing... I just think we will forever be pushing the 8 with our current list without really challenging for the flag. A lot of the Tigers is what I see with how we are going while accumulating mid first round picks over a number of years without getting the cream that is required to win flags. Honestly while we are this crap we may as well make the most of it and push for a full re-build. IMO we will be pushing for a flag a hell of a lot sooner if we completely bottom out, bring in the elite young talent and then push for finals.

 

[briztoon]

The problem with anither rebuild is that we need high end draft picks. 2 in the top 10 and 4 in the top 20. I can't see how we would get another pick in the top 10, doubt we would get a pick for our players except for Zorko and he should be untradeable. Plus if we traded out all our best players, it would mean more beltings like this year except it would be happening for another 3/4+ years, which i don't think we could survive if that happened.

I agree with going for any FA signings if they want to come in to provide leadership and professionalism. Ideally someone from a very good team, not Carlton. Whitecross would be good.

This really is where our academy needs to play a key role, and I have been talking about the advantage our academy can give us while we bottom out. A lot will obviously depend on how high our own academy kids are rated, but if we can add a top end talent through the draft each year and add two or three top 20/30 rated academy kids, and the occasional very highly rated academy kid, we should be able to rebuild through the draft.

We added Harris Andrews in 2014, Ben Keays and Eric Hipwood in 2015, we should be adding Jack Rolls, Jacob Allison and Declan Watson this year, and have Jack Clayton and Connor Ballenden in the AFL Level One academy this year who hopefully both excel next year in their draft year. These are our local foundation. Add to them Schache, Mathieson and Sam Skinner from last years draft, and add hopefully a top two pick this year and if we're lucky an early second round pick (I'd really like a shot at Alex Withered from the Geelong Falcons who is out with a broken leg this year), and next year we realistically should be looking at another top two or three draft pick.

Hopefully that's enough young kids/talent to build a roster around through free agency and trade.

I did ask Nightmare what he would do with our top pick and then asked him a follow up question.

I'd be saying the same to all those teams with top picks. My recommendation is to move that pick early draft selection for a high level established player or two if possible.

In the free agency era players will tend to go to winning teams. So there needs to be the appealing pieces in place to give them a reason to come join your team. Gold Coast and GWS would no doubt offer a lot in an attempt to move into early selections and get any discount possible on their early draft academy talents.

I'd probably in Brisbane's situation knock on GWS' door and offer that first pick for Patton + some outside best 22 type who at Brisbane probably can be best 22 and fill a need.

I generally favour players who can/are contributing now over long term prospects through the draft. There is time and development that goes into young recruiters, and they're not always as good as expected through the draft, with a bit of luck involved, as well as you may be convinced you've picked.

Having strong faith still in Patton I'd be inclined to back him in over the recruits of this draft. I can't name one name I'd definitely take in this years draft ahead of Patton. The academy talents are the more appealing players right now in this years draft early on, but Patton for me is really ripe for the picking and if given the opportunity to play inside 50m as a go-to target on another team I feel he'd really come into his own as the likes of Hawkins as one example has after some time later on in the AFL system, with Patton someone for me who can become an equivalent level player.

 

[briztoon]

The problem with anither rebuild is that we need high end draft picks. 2 in the top 10 and 4 in the top 20. I can't see how we would get another pick in the top 10, doubt we would get a pick for our players except for Zorko and he should be untradeable. Plus if we traded out all our best players, it would mean more beltings like this year except it would be happening for another 3/4+ years, which i don't think we could survive if that happened.

I agree with going for any FA signings if they want to come in to provide leadership and professionalism. Ideally someone from a very good team, not Carlton. Whitecross would be good.

Again from Knightmare.

I don't see a best on list standard player in this draft, though there is still another few months for some guys to develop and improve their games further. Overall the top end is very even and you could pick players in any order.

Williem Drew is one player I'll use as an example. He could be pick 30 on one recruiters draft board, but he could be top five on mine at seasons end. And there will be those variations for others with other talents.

So you could call it an even best 20-25 with good talent, but a lot of that better talent going to the clubs with academies.

It would be a pretty easy year for a club to complete a two for one trade, Fremantle as a hypothetical could pretty easily if they have pick 2/3 trade it to a club with two picks later in the top 10 and be pretty happy with the outcome.

I also don't mind the depth down the bottom of the draft. The depth in ruck prospects this year particularly is about as good as I've ever seen. There are 4-8 draftable rucks playing in the junior competitions this season.

Probably unless you're a team with an academy, it's not the ideal year to have a top three or top five selection. It shouldn't be too hard for clubs to move those picks though, so Essendon as one example, could pretty easily flip that pick for a couple of high level players or a player and pick that appeals if no options appeal with that first choice, perhaps in a deal along the lines of what we saw in that 2001 Hawthorn and Fremantle trade where Hawthorn scored Hodge and a pick mid draft that got Sam Mitchell, and Fremantle gaining Luke McPharlin and Trent Croad.

 

[briztoon]

what else can get worse? We are the the most rubbish team now and players are re-signing... I just think we will forever be pushing the 8 with our current list without really challenging for the flag. A lot of the Tigers is what I see with how we are going while accumulating mid first round picks over a number of years without getting the cream that is required to win flags. Honestly while we are this crap we may as well make the most of it and push for a full re-build. IMO we will be pushing for a flag a hell of a lot sooner if we completely bottom out, bring in the elite young talent and then push for finals.

That's pretty much standard thinking in any sport that adds new talent through a draft.

You can either bottom out and rebuild with youth through the draft or trading high draft picks for young, emerging or established talent. Of course in a team sport that has a large list, this takes time as you can't add enough talent in one or two drafts, and you need to then develop this talent over 3 or 4 seasons.

If you are a big name team you may be viewed as destination team for free agents and rebuild through free agency or trade with out bottoming out. Obviously salary cap management is the key for these clubs.

Or if you are a top team, you can reload via trade for established talent. This is where list management is the key, and an understanding that you have to give up a player/s of value to receive player/s of value.


You can sell a total rebuild if it's done right. Right now, on-field behaviour, not results on the score board, indicate something is very wrong, and it's not being done right.

I believe the Lions current problem revolves more around the lack of effort on the field from the senior players, the obvious lack or loss of or non development of skills being displayed from some players, and the large amount of basic tactical or game sense errors seen every game. All this excludes the game plan put in place by the coach.

If we take a proper look at recent off seasons, people should realise that the 2015 trade and draft period was the beginning of rebuilding through the draft. 2014's trade period and draft really was just recovering from, and adding established talent back in to the club after Go Home Five. So in effect this season is the first year of rebuilding through the draft on the field.

 

[MacMum]

I heard Browny's outburst last night re-played on SEN this arvo on Daniel Harford/Mark Allen show. He really let them (AFL) have it......and when he said "for Christ sake....." and "hung out to dry" I laughed. He was really fired up.

He didn't hold back!

I posted you haven't said enough previously Browny, you made up for it last night. Brilliant stuff

...and Harf and Allen agreed and commented that they said when the fixture came out that we had the hardest draw, which they did, I heard them. They read out our draw and commented that it didn't seem fair at all or make sense.

 

[lions27]

I heard Browny's outburst last night re-played on SEN this arvo on Daniel Harford/Mark Allen show. He really let them (AFL) have it......and when he said "for Christ sake....." and "hung out to dry" I laughed. He was really fired up.

He didn't hold back!

I posted you haven't said enough previously Browny, you made up for it last night. Brilliant stuff

...and Harf and Allen agreed and commented that they said when the fixture came out that we had the hardest draw, which they did, I heard them. They read out our draw and commented that it didn't seem fair at all or make sense.

His jaw was fully clenched he was pretty emotional, Dunstable is lucky he didn't stir the pot I reckon.
Big Browny still bleeds for this club

 

[brizrider]

Is the latest Caroline Wilson article an indication that it is over for Leppa?

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/afl...lethal-to-leigh-matthews-20160614-gpj2aq.html

 

[3KZ is Football]

Is the latest Caroline Wilson article an indication that it is over for Leppa?

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/afl...lethal-to-leigh-matthews-20160614-gpj2aq.html

Doesn't sound good does it.

 

[Athlonxp]

For a change of pace of the discussions about the Lions of late, Nigel Lappin was inducted into the AFL Hall of Fame tonight!
Great Work Nigel!

I can still remember a Lions supporter at the Gabba some years ago now (back when Lappin was playing of course) always saying "He's Lappin it up" when he got a possession or a good piece of play.

 

[lionbear]

Well done Nigel, great effort to get into the hall of fame, only one of the fab 4 remain not in and I am sure as soon as Black meets the criteria he will be in.

Remember you in the early Bears days, one of the best draft choices from Wallsy, and was a vital key in Establishing the Lions.

Well done Nigel.

 

[braddsey]

Is the latest Caroline Wilson article an indication that it is over for Leppa?

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/afl...lethal-to-leigh-matthews-20160614-gpj2aq.html

She pretty much said the same thing on Footy Classified, but went further to suggest that Matthews is struggling (or not enjoying) the conflict of having the be the Lions spokesman (as a result of being the boss) in combination with his media duties. The implication is that he likely needs to go with one or the other, and being the boss at the Lions doesn't pay like being a media commentator... So if he gives away his Lions role then it frees whoever is in charge next to boot Leppa.

 

[Mr Ripper]

For a change of pace of the discussions about the Lions of late, Nigel Lappin was inducted into the AFL Hall of Fame tonight!
Great Work Nigel!

I can still remember a Lions supporter at the Gabba some years ago now (back when Lappin was playing of course) always saying "He's Lappin it up" when he got a possession or a good piece of play.

Australian Football Hall of Fame.

 

[chopperduck]

If we take a proper look at recent off seasons, people should realise that the 2015 trade and draft period was the beginning of rebuilding through the draft. 2014's trade period and draft really was just recovering from, and adding established talent back in to the club after Go Home Five. So in effect this season is the first year of rebuilding through the draft on the field.

You are correct in many of your observations with the draft system and what we should do, although i do feel your lack of history following the club/sport blinds you to how difficult some of the solutions actually are for us. But what you said here is correct. It is the 3rd season under Leppa, yet the rebuild has only just begun.

The first season was on the back of the GH5, he didnt have the coaching personnel he wanted, and that draft (whilst still might pan out ok) wasnt high quality for us. It was replacing top picks with lesser quality players. Leppa has mentioned needing to wait 4 years with draftees, not only did we get lesser quality players, but that 4 year period was reset. So that first season is a bit of a write off, it was just stabilising.

During this time we've also had the opportunity to bring in some senior players from other clubs, and whilst you can argue that we havent got a lot out of most of them so far, i still feel they were worth what we paid. Some players like Bundy and Bell we will get more out of when the team improves, they are those types of players. These players did cost us picks, especially Beams.

So really, outside of academy picks in Harro and Freeman, our rebuild via the draft has only just started in the last draft, with Schache, Keays, Hipwood, Matho and Skinner, if you are talking about top end draft talent.

Where many of us feel like we should be seeing improvement, really we are probably 18-24 months too early, especially because the young talent we do have, isnt top 15 pick quality. Elite young players tend to develop quicker as well. Combine this with under performing senior players, and it is easy to see why we are struggling so much.

We do have a good opportunity in this draft to inject another good group of better quality kids. Likely top 3 pick, plus 2-3 academy kids who seem rated decently. But again, this isnt going to make a massive difference next year. We are still looking at 2018-2019 til we start to see the 15&16 draft classes start to make an impact.

Our facilities is the other side of this. We need the facilities for player retention, but also development. Players need access to good equipment, that they dont have to share in shifts. They also need access to better/more development in terms of coaching. Now players review games via an ipad, with comments and stuff recorded on it that they can watch any time. That is cute and all, but how about having the resources for the young players to sit down EVERY week to run through the game one on one. You need the staff/man hours to not only do this with the player, but to do the initial review as well. All comes back to footy department spending.

Senior coaching mentor would be good for Leppa as a side note. Not because he needs to be walked through it, but because he is still an unproven coach with the toughest coaching job in the AFL. Some experience to help shoulder that load would simply be smart. You have to set up your guys to succeed, not fail.