Expansion Media reaction: SL-NRL expansion vs. AFL two-team expansion plans

[Subprime]

So on the one hand ParraEelsNRL says:

"South Sydneys crowds have nearly doubled since moving to Home bush, it is working."

Whereas on the other hand littleduck says:

"South Sydney settled for second best (Homebush over SFS) due to financial incentives. $$$ over-rules all else."

and

"Clearly, RL football specific venues generates the perfect atmosphere for RL matches and therefore repeat patronage becomes an easier sell than asking patrons to return to a field with poor viewing angles."

It just doesn't tally that the supposed inferior viewing angles at Homebush have a negative effect on crowds at all. In fact Souths crowds have doubled since moving from the purpose-built RL facility to Homebush.

The Titans and the NRL were indeed 'lucky' that the Queensland government accepted their RL-specific stadium proposal.

Its really no use claiming that now we want to 'co-exist' when best efforts were made to exclude the competition.

Its hard to imagine how an RL-specific stadium with 1 and maybe 2 tenants can be a superior financial proposition to a multi-purpose stadium such as a mini-Homebush that also caters for the AFL and Twenty20 cricket.

And as Souths have shown there would have been no detrimental effect on the Titans crowds.

 

[littleduck]

So on the one hand ParraEelsNRL says:

"South Sydneys crowds have nearly doubled since moving to Home bush, it is working."

Whereas on the other hand littleduck says:

"South Sydney settled for second best (Homebush over SFS) due to financial incentives. $$$ over-rules all else."

and

"Clearly, RL football specific venues generates the perfect atmosphere for RL matches and therefore repeat patronage becomes an easier sell than asking patrons to return to a field with poor viewing angles."

It just doesn't tally that the supposed inferior viewing angles at Homebush have a negative effect on crowds at all.

As I said earlier, Homebush is a world class venue with first class facilities for both players and patrons. As a result, it is somewhat attractive for patrons.

However, this does not affect the proposition that RL-specific venues generate a far superior atmosphere to oval-shaped venues and therefore repeat patronage is far more likely.

In fact Souths crowds have doubled since moving from the purpose-built RL facility to Homebush.

South Sydney is can exception I agree, but an exception for reasons other than the venue. The other reasons relate to increased professionalism in everything they do, not to mention they were starting from the level of a basket case.

I maintain my position that:
"Clearly, RL football specific venues generates the perfect atmosphere for RL matches and therefore repeat patronage becomes an easier sell than asking patrons to return to a field with poor viewing angles."

The Titans and the NRL were indeed 'lucky' that the Queensland government accepted their RL-specific stadium proposal.

I don't know if "lucky" is the right term. Was AFL "lucky" that the Victorian Government upgraded the MCG? I don't think so. It was justified.

Its really no use claiming that now we want to 'co-exist' when best efforts were made to exclude the competition.

Accepting co-existence as the future and lobbying government for a rectangular-shaped stadium is not mutually exclusive.

Its hard to imagine how an RL-specific stadium with 1 and maybe 2 tenants can be a superior financial proposition to a multi-purpose stadium such as a mini-Homebush that also caters for the AFL and Twenty20 cricket.

If you think more broadly like this, you may be onto a winner. However, as far as the Titans were concerned, it would have been second best to a purpose-built rectangular stadium with a better atmosphere for RL football. The Titans were not about lobbying government for second-best. If they were to receive second-best from government, it would have been due to AFL lobbying government at the same time. However, during the 5 years leading up to the Titans admission and government-funding for a purpose-built stadium, the AFL was not serious about a Gold Coast team and were therefore not serious lobbyists of government.

And as Souths have shown there would have been no detrimental effect on the Titans crowds.

No, Souths don't show that at all. All the extensive research done by the Titans suggested otherwise.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Hey Subprime, don't use me to get one over LD, Souths crowds are rising because they have finally started to win on and off the pitch, nothing to do with where they play.

No finals in 18 years, all the best juniors going to other clubs, finishing in the bottom 4 more times than any other team over the same period, you work it out.

Now they have businessmen running the joint instead of ex footballers who think chook raffles are the go.

Plus they get paid money to play at Home Bush instead of paying money

 

[Subprime]

Hang on didn't Souths came back into the NRL based on their fans efforts. If they were prepared to march to the courthouse surely they're willing to turn up to home games through thick or thin.

Richmond supporters would laugh you guys (gallows humour of course).

No the equation is this:

Multi-purpose ~10 y.o. stadium beats ~25 y.o. RL-facility by a margin of 2 to 1. As voted by the feet and pockets of Rugby League supporters.

Co-existance is indeed possible but when the NRL and the Titans had the opportunity to do so, they rejected it. Instead demanding a RL-facility or no Gold Coast NRL franchise.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Hang on didn't Souths came back into the NRL based on their fans efforts. If they were prepared to march to the courthouse surely they're willing to turn up to home games through thick or thin.

Richmond supporters would laugh you guys (gallows humour of course).

No the equation is this:

Multi-purpose ~10 y.o. stadium beats ~25 y.o. RL-facility by a margin of 2 to 1. As voted by the feet and pockets of Rugby League supporters.

Co-existance is indeed possible but when the NRL and the Titans had the opportunity to do so, they rejected it. Instead demanding a RL-facility or no Gold Coast NRL franchise.

Whats stopping the GC getting an AR ground or fixing the one they already have?

It's got nothing to do with the titans at all.

The AFL doesn't have a team on the GC, why should they get a new stadium?

The code mightn't even put a bloody team up there, what a waste of money that would be.

As far as I can tell, everytime there is a new stadium to be built somewhere, the AFL and its fans jump up and down until it's built the way they like it, well stiff shit this time huh?

How are those stadiums in Perth and Adelaide coming along for the RL-RU and Soccer?

Not very bloody well huh?

Why not build cricket stadiums everywhere so the fans of other codes don't go, leave it all open to the only two sports in the world who use them?

I suppose you think the North QLD cowboys should build their stadium into a ground for AFL, how about Parramatta, Penrith, Newcastle, Raiders, St George, Roosters, Broncos huh?

Maybe AFL should stop using Cricket grounds and start using the type of ground every other bloody footy code does, solves the problem doesn't it.

Instead of fukcing up the atmosphere and close in action of other sports, maybe the AFL should get their own frigging grounds and stay the hell out of places they are not wanted?

Like the Gold Coast, if they were wanted, every AFL game up there would be a sellout regardless of who plays, yet they can't even sellout Carrara when the Lions play.

Yet the RL teams who played up there before the Titans always played infront of big crowds showing the NRL they really did want a team.

FFS the Warriors from NZ played in front of sellout crowds up there, yet the Lions don't.

AFL heartland

Look what happened to home bush, the AFL complained and bang, the stadium meant for the Rectangular codes after the Olympics is a joke.

Oh, but every other code has to bent over backwards for the almighty AFL don't they?

 

[littleduck]

Hang on didn't Souths came back into the NRL based on their fans efforts. If they were prepared to march to the courthouse surely they're willing to turn up to home games through thick or thin.

Richmond supporters would laugh you guys (gallows humour of course).

No the equation is this:

Multi-purpose ~10 y.o. stadium beats ~25 y.o. RL-facility by a margin of 2 to 1. As voted by the feet and pockets of Rugby League supporters.

Co-existance is indeed possible but when the NRL and the Titans had the opportunity to do so, they rejected it. Instead demanding a RL-facility or no Gold Coast NRL franchise.

Co-existene does not just mean being being co-tenants.

The Titans prepared a business plan for the succes of their football club based on industry best practice. It was arguably the most well-researched and professional business plan of any sporting club in Australian sporting history seeking admission into a competition. Best practice in the RL world is a purpose built rectangular shaped boutique facility. Providing the best for patrons leads to repeat patronage and thus higher overall crowds and gate receipts.

Accepting second-best was never their preferred option, but may have been forced on them if the AFL had beat the drum of Gold Coast expansion 3 or 4 years ago rather than in the past 3 or 4 months.

 

[littleduck]

Whats stopping the GC getting an AR ground or fixing the one they already have?

It's got nothing to do with the titans at all.

The AFL doesn't have a team on the GC, why should they get a new stadium?

The code mightn't even put a bloody team up there, what a waste of money that would be.

As far as I can tell, everytime there is a new stadium to be built somewhere, the AFL and its fans jump up and down until it's built the way they like it, well stiff shit this time huh?

How are those stadiums in Perth and Adelaide coming along for the RL-RU and Soccer?

Not very bloody well huh?

Why not build cricket stadiums everywhere so the fans of other codes don't go, leave it all open to the only two sports in the world who use them?

I suppose you think the North QLD cowboys should build their stadium into a ground for AFL, how about Parramatta, Penrith, Newcastle, Raiders, St George, Roosters, Broncos huh?

Maybe AFL should stop using Cricket grounds and start using the type of ground every other bloody footy code does, solves the problem doesn't it.

Instead of fukcing up the atmosphere and close in action of other sports, maybe the AFL should get their own frigging grounds and stay the hell out of places they are not wanted?

Like the Gold Coast, if they were wanted, every AFL game up there would be a sellout regardless of who plays, yet they can't even sellout Carrara when the Lions play.

Yet the RL teams who played up there before the Titans always played infront of big crowds showing the NRL they really did want a team.

FFS the Warriors from NZ played in front of sellout crowds up there, yet the Lions don't.

AFL heartland

Look what happened to home bush, the AFL complained and bang, the stadium meant for the Rectangular codes after the Olympics is a joke.

Oh, but every other code has to bent over backwards for the almighty AFL don't they?

The AFL give the perception that they are so full of themselves that every strategic decision made by other codes must be done in such a way that it fits within the AFL strategic plan of national domination and ultimately world domination.

The AFL has an intimate relationship with the Minister for Sport in Victoria because s/he will always effectively be the Minister for AFL. The AFL has no such clout with the Queensland Government and the Premier and Minister for Sport are not just a phone call away. Instead, AFL Commissioners have meetings with Qld Govt underlings and public service bosses.

 

[Subprime]

ParraEelsNRL - The NRL has a purpose built facility at the SFS that NRL clubs don't want to use in preference to a multi-sport facility at Homebush. Don't you get that?

The Queensland government is now saying it doesn't have any money left to build a multi-purpose stadium because they wasted it all on the Titans palace. I wonder how the Queensland government will get a return on that "investment".

As for the rest of your rant well there are facilties in Adelaide and Perth that would comfortably handle average NRL crowds.

 

[Subprime]

The AFL give the perception that they are so full of themselves that every strategic decision made by other codes must be done in such a way that it fits within the AFL strategic plan of national domination and ultimately world domination.

The AFL has an intimate relationship with the Minister for Sport in Victoria because s/he will always effectively be the Minister for AFL. The AFL has no such clout with the Queensland Government and the Premier and Minister for Sport are not just a phone call away. Instead, AFL Commissioners have meetings with Qld Govt underlings and public service bosses.

When the facts run against you littleduck you resort to the hyperbole of 'world domination'. Next you'll be telling me the AFL refuses to co-exist with the Titans again. Codswallop.

Is that the same Vic Ministry that just built a RL stadium for the Storm? Wouldn't the AFL have stepped in if they had the power your little fantasy details.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

ParraEelsNRL - The NRL has a purpose built facility at the SFS that NRL clubs don't want to use in preference to a multi-sport facility at Homebush. Don't you get that?

The SFS, you expect all the Sydney teams to use it huh?

Well the Dragons and Roosters do.

Why should Parra, Penrith, WT, Bulldogs, Manly, Cronulla all move miles away from their Heartlands to please you?

What about the Fans, shouldn't they be the ones who should give a stuff and not you because you don't follow the game?

As I said, the dragons and Roosters use the SFS and other teams use it for Semi Finals along with the Tahs in the S14 and the A Leagues Sydney FC.

It gets used plenty over the season, maybe if they dropped their prices, more teams would use it, as it is, the Home Bush mob have jumped in and stolen a few teams, good on them, if they are willing to lower costs to get teams in, stiff to the SFS.

Aren't you guys always complaining how the SCG Trust treats the Swans?

Well the same mob run the SFS.

The Queensland government is now saying it doesn't have any money left to build a multi-purpose stadium because they wasted it all on the Titans palace. I wonder how the Queensland government will get a return on that "investment".

Sold out in under an hour, looking good huh?

How about those sellouts in QLD for the AFL?

How long since thats happened at any QLD ground?

Very good investment for QLD in regards to RL, should make even more money in 2009-10 when the A League gets a GC team.

Plus they have a few RLWC games this year, all looking rather good I would say.

As for the rest of your rant well there are facilties in Adelaide and Perth that would comfortably handle average NRL crowds.

And Carrara is big enough for the AFL if they ever get a team, they can't sell it out now with a team 60 kms away playing there.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

When the facts run against you littleduck you resort to the hyperbole of 'world domination'. Next you'll be telling me the AFL refuses to co-exist with the Titans again. Codswallop.

Is that the same Vic Ministry that just built a RL stadium for the Storm? Wouldn't the AFL have stepped in if they had the power your little fantasy details.

Doesn't Collingwood have something to do with the new stadium?

Hahahaha.

 

[Subprime]

Doesn't Collingwood have something to do with the new stadium?

Hahahaha.

Do they? Got a link or is this a joke?

 

[Subprime]

The SFS, you expect all the Sydney teams to use it huh?

...(rant deleted)...

Sold out in under an hour, looking good huh?

How about those sellouts in QLD for the AFL?

How long since thats happened at any QLD ground?

Very good investment for QLD in regards to RL, should make even more money in 2009-10 when the A League gets a GC team.

Plus they have a few RLWC games this year, all looking rather good I would say.



And Carrara is big enough for the AFL if they ever get a team, they can't sell it out now with a team 60 kms away playing there.

Re the SFS, it was about Souths moving, remember?

The Titans sold out opening night, good for them, can't wait to see the financial results on the Qld gov't investment? How much do the Titans pay in rent?

The Lions draw about the same as the Broncos and neither sell-out their stadiums, what's your point?

Carrara doesn't sell-out for two non-Gold Coast sides, how about that?

 

[littleduck]

ParraEelsNRL - The NRL has a purpose built facility at the SFS that NRL clubs don't want to use in preference to a multi-sport facility at Homebush. Don't you get that?

You have to ask yourself why?

Melbourne has a larger inner-city colloseum easily accesible by public transport from all points of Melbourne. All roads lead to the MCG so to speak.

Moore Park in Sydney is not easily accesible to most clubs, except perhaps South Sydney and Eastern Suburbs Roosters.

The Queensland government is now saying it doesn't have any money left to build a multi-purpose stadium because they wasted it all on the Titans palace.

Wasted? Surely it is a bit too early to draw such conclusions.

I wonder how the Queensland government will get a return on that "investment".

Good question, but it will be used by the Titans and soon the Galaxy A-League team, not to mention RL tests, RL World Cup matches later this year, and perhaps Rugby rep games other than the big blockbusters. There is always the possibility of a Gold Coast Super Rugby team, and Wallabies fixtures.

I dare say a better return that building a stadium solely for use by the AFL and nobody else except a hypothetical Gold Coast Twenty20 team.

While we are talking about return on investment, what justification was given for the MCG upgrade? Hundreds of millions spent for what purpose?

As for the rest of your rant well there are facilties in Adelaide and Perth that would comfortably handle average NRL crowds.

True.

 

[Subprime]

You have to ask yourself why?

Melbourne has a larger inner-city colloseum easily accesible by public transport from all points of Melbourne. All roads lead to the MCG so to speak.

Moore Park in Sydney is not easily accesible to most clubs, except perhaps South Sydney and Eastern Suburbs Roosters.

Wasted? Surely it is a bit too early to draw such conclusions.

Good question, but it will be used by the Titans and soon the Galaxy A-League team, not to mention RL tests, RL World Cup matches later this year, and perhaps Rugby rep games other than the big blockbusters. There is always the possibility of a Gold Coast Super Rugby team, and Wallabies fixtures.

I dare say a better return that building a stadium solely for use by the AFL and nobody else except a hypothetical Gold Coast Twenty20 team.

While we are talking about return on investment, what justification was given for the MCG upgrade? Hundreds of millions spent for what purpose?

True.

SCG sold out last year for Swans games but the 15 minute walk deters the average RL fan despite the superior vantage points.

GC stadium - I'll believe it when I see the order book. The A-league franchise and the ARC/Super14 team don't exist at the moment and are hypothetical like the Twenty20 team.

MCG has Collingwood Avge crowd ~55k; Richmond - ~40k; Hawthorn ~40k; Melbourne ~30k plus Carlton & Essendon blockbusters; some finals & GF, RU tests, Soccer Int'ls, Cricket & C'wealth games.

Its also a national icon and seems profitable and viable but if you have some figures...feel free to put them up.

 

[littleduck]

SCG sold out last year for Swans games but the 15 minute walk deters the average RL fan despite the superior vantage points.

Not only do the Swans represent all of NSW but the common belief is the majority of fans are based around the eastern suburbs and North Shore, which is near Moore Park.

GC stadium - I'll believe it when I see the order book. The A-league franchise and the ARC/Super14 team don't exist at the moment and are hypothetical like the Twenty20 team.

The Gold Coast Galaxy hold a provision A-League licence. They well and truly exist I would say.

RL and RU rep games are not fanciful but reality.

MCG has Collingwood Avge crowd ~55k; Richmond - ~40k; Hawthorn ~40k; Melbourne ~30k plus Carlton & Essendon blockbusters; some finals & GF, RU tests, Soccer Int'ls, Cricket & C'wealth games.

No more than a handful regularly and reliably push capacity.

Its also a national icon and seems profitable and viable but if you have some figures...feel free to put them up.

I'm not suggesting it was unwarranted, but simply applying the same logic to the MCG.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Re the SFS, it was about Souths moving, remember?

Who gives a shit about Souths?

They do what's best for them, good luck to them.

The Titans sold out opening night, good for them, can't wait to see the financial results on the Qld gov't investment? How much do the Titans pay in rent?

Yep, good for them, why don't you email the GC Titans and ask how much they pay rent, I have no idea and quite frankly, I don't care.

The Lions draw about the same as the Broncos and neither sell-out their stadiums, what's your point?

About the same?

Hmmm, never seen a 52,000 crowd up there for the Lions, seen a few for the Broncos.

The Broncos sellout their stadium more often than the Lions, thats if the Lions have even soldout the joint since its been done up.

Carrara doesn't sell-out for two non-Gold Coast sides, how about that?

Yeah, but the same place with more seats put in sells out for Non Gold Coast Rugby League teams.

Say it's a practice match all you like, even though the nab cup is a proper game, the Gold Coast turns up for trial matches for Rugby League not involving QLD teams and still gets a full house, the AFL has a hard time getting 10,000 any time.

 

[Subprime]

Not only do the Swans represent all of NSW but the common belief is the majority of fans are based around the eastern suburbs and North Shore, which is near Moore Park.

...

And Easts and Souths supporters travel from Blacktown I presume

 

[Subprime]

...

Hmmm, never seen a 52,000 crowd up there for the Lions, seen a few for the Broncos.

The Broncos sellout their stadium more often than the Lions, thats if the Lions have even soldout the joint since its been done up.



....

So they have sellouts but their average is a few thou above the Lions and in the 30's?

Some games pull 52k but others 15k is that how it goes?

 

[erpel9999]

ParraEelsNRL - The NRL has a purpose built facility at the SFS that NRL clubs don't want to use in preference to a multi-sport facility at Homebush. Don't you get that?

The Queensland government is now saying it doesn't have any money left to build a multi-purpose stadium because they wasted it all on the Titans palace. I wonder how the Queensland government will get a return on that "investment".

As for the rest of your rant well there are facilties in Adelaide and Perth that would comfortably handle average NRL crowds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VFL_Park

pot... kettle.. etc

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

So they have sellouts but their average is a few thou above the Lions and in the 30's?

Some games pull 52k but others 15k is that how it goes?

Some teams get good support, some don't.

Parra use to play in front of near 60,000 up there, now they get around 25,000 for some reason, it'll turn around again.

 

[Dogs Of War]

So do the Broncos get bigger crowds now than in the ANZ stadium days?

I find it hard to believe your claim that a Rugby League specific field is the only model that works when the Sydney experience provides evidence directly to the contrary. And Souths aren't the only club moving games from Rugby League specific fields to Homebush.

If your not going to put up some evidence to support your theory you are just blowing hot air.

http://www.leaguehq.com.au/news/new...in-shortchanged/2008/03/11/1205125911684.html

And, unlike the SFS, where the crowd sits close enough to get sprayed with sweat, and occasionally other bodily fluids, ANZ Stadium always feels as though a running track remains between spectator and player.

Annesley defends it. "It does come in at the side so it can be turned into a rectangular playing field and, although it's a multi-purpose venue, it's the largest capacity venue in this state and Queensland."

But a big ground is not a great ground for league. The SCG was the code's spiritual home but it's a shocking place to watch any football, except of the southern variety. Could it be that one reason why league has never dominated the psyche of the city in the way Australian Rules rules does in Melbourne is that Sydney didn't get its first decent stadium to watch it until 1986? Parramatta Stadium brought the crowd and action together, a trend continued by the SFS in 1988. Whereas the old stadia were shared by two codes (league and cricket) that didn't fit well together, the new ones work perfectly for league, rugby and soccer.

The quoted section I suppose is the most important, but overall this article sums up my feelings best. It's good for the club, not so good for the fans, but at the end of the day, when NRL is not getting the money that AFL is, we have to accept these things as good for the game.

 

[Subprime]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VFL_Park

pot... kettle.. etc

Not sure what your point is. VFL Park was built with footy money IIRC. Not government money.

 

[Subprime]

http://www.leaguehq.com.au/news/new...in-shortchanged/2008/03/11/1205125911684.html

I suppose this article sums up my feelings best. It's good for the club, not so good for the fans, but at the end of the day, when NRL is not getting the money that AFL is, we have to accept these things as good for the game.

Another government funded rectangular stadium and SFS is 20 years old and Souths move out?

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Broncos crowds usually fall around SOO time because 3 quarters of the team is missing and they play against teams who are not as popular as others.

If the Broncos have a really good year home and away, they will probably get close to 40,000 ave this year.