Expansion Media reaction: SL-NRL expansion vs. AFL two-team expansion plans

Remove this Banner Ad

Professor Knowall said:
Thanks, DOW, that's actually a well reasoned reply - Your points on the influence of cricketers and about the oval are well made, no arguments from me on that. In fact you’ve made far better points than Fagan did in his entire article! And yes, the game of gridiron certainly mostly derived from rugby union.

I also won’t say that rugby had no influence at all on Australian Football - but it was only to a minor extent. I’ll be as concise as I can here, and not include all the evidence -

1) There was no game of rugby union in 1858/1859 - the union was still a while off. There were Rugby School rules (played at Rugby School obviously and from there it spread), but it was only one of a number of unconsolidated school rules existing in England at that time (e.g. Cambridge Rules, Eton Rules, Sheffield Rules, etc. (some which later became the basis for rugby union, others for soccer). Thanks to the novel ‘Tom Browns Schooldays’ Rugby school rules were the most well known in England.

2) The point is that Australian Football is older than both association football (1863) and rugby union (1871), an it adopted its own rules which deliberately avoided being a the same as the rugby school rules, even though Tom Wills attended Rugby School and excelled at its football. A contemporary source - one of the pioneers of Australian Football, H.C.A. Harrison, in his autobiography, ‘The Story of an Athlete, recalled - (chapter 7) -

"Till the year 1858, no football had been played in the colony. But when T.W. Wills arrived back from England, fresh from Rugby School, full of enthusiasm for all kinds of sport, he suggested that we should make a start with it. He very sensible advised us not to take up Rugby although that had been his own game because he considered it unsuitable for grown men ... But to work out a game of our own.

3) Aside from there being no off-side rules at all (if they wanted, they could’ve copied up to 6 off-side rules from the rugby rules at the time), look at Rule 8 of the original 1859 codified rules -

The Ball shall be taken in hand only when caught from the foot, or on the hop. In no case shall it be lifted from the ground.
This was a bit similar to the earliest soccer rules, but not rugby.

And Rule 8 was then amended in 1860 to - "The Ball may not be lifted from the ground under any circumstances, or taken in hand except as provided in rule 6 (catch from the foot, or when on the first hop. In shall not be run in any case.

This is not one little bit like rugby - no off-side and no running with the ball. Running was allowed from 1862 - but only provided the ball was bounced "every 5 to 6 yards".

And finally (for this post at least, or I could go on all night) I refer to rule 10 of 1860 - The ball, while in play, may under no circumstances be thrown.

Again, a long way from rugby.

So, Australian Football owes little to rugby and right from the start, the game became distinct from the forms then being played in England. It also became the first code of football to have positional play (and thus the first to become a mass spectator code), and it seems this may have influenced both rugby and soccer in England in the 1880’s, and certainly the game of Gaelic Football, invented in 1884. However, research is only just getting under way on these intruiging points.
Click to expand...

I love you man ;):thumbsu:
 

Log in to remove this ad.

I'm a fan of Richard Hinds' work. He's balanced, has a great turn of phrase and has no bias for any particular code.
Today's piece in the SMH is among his best, adding some much-needed balance to the debate.

Forces gather for battle to win the west

Richard Hinds, March 1, 2008

IN CASE you spend more time with your nose in the sports section than The Monthly or Quadrant, the so-called culture wars are over. The Cultural Elite Soyaccinos came from behind to beat Balmain Riesling Right with Kevin Rudd's buzzer-beating apology.

But just because we have reached general consensus on things such as reconciliation (good), global warming (not good) and industrial policies that reduce workers' salaries and conditions (also not good), it is not peace in our time.

Stand by for an even bloodier battle in which entrenched prejudices, distorted versions of history and appeals to the best and worst instincts of Australians will again be common. And this time, instead of skirmishing over an asparagus ravioli with a drizzle of truffle oil, you'll be lucky to get a decent pie and chips.

Goodbye culture wars, hello footy wars. And we don't mean the innocuous shadow-boxing in which the four competing codes have engaged over the past two decades, where they would apologetically plonk a franchise in rival territory, hand out freebies to impressionable kiddies like missionaries distributing bibles to illiterate tribesmen, or compete in intellectually bankrupt Aerial Ping-Pongers versus No Necks versus Wogballers debates.

With the Australian Football League stating its intention to accelerate its move into western Sydney and the Gold Coast, and Football Federation Australia enlisting government support for a World Cup bid while expanding the A-League, the Cold War-style division of territory is about to be replaced by hand-to-hand combat.

As the strategic moves in the war rooms of the AFL and FFA escalate tensions, revealing has been the slightly panicked reaction of rugby league diehards at the prospect of the AFL - and, inevitably, the A-League - marshalling forces on the western front.

The Herald's Roy Masters, one of the few experts intimately acquainted with the machinations of both the NRL and AFL, described the AFL push into western Sydney as "misplaced imperialism" - a sentiment that seemed somewhat unusual given he was, at the time, on assignment with the Melbourne Storm.

Meanwhile, a throwaway line by that sabre-rattling AFL nationalist Ron Barassi that Sydney could one day host four teams prompted predictable Churchillian cant from league dial-a-quotes about how the west would never buckle under the AFL's blitzkrieg. "We'll fight them in the bleachers." That sort of thing.

But, despite those stirring words, you detect some frayed nerves among league supporters. Not because of the strength of the AFL's multimillion-dollar push, but because they fear their own forces are not yet up for the fight.

The NRL's hesitancy in expanding its borders and the feudal nature of some traditional heartland clubs - highlighted by the Bulldogs' recent in-fighting - could make the game more vulnerable than some of its sword carriers would like to believe.

The response of NRL supporters and media propagandists - if not the NRL executive - to a potential invasion of the west is a heavy reliance on stubborn, Soviet-style resistance from a large, fanatical band of hard-core westies.

But while they prepare for the Siege of Parramatta, the invaders are already jumping the trenches and infiltrating the population.

Meanwhile, the AFL has moved on to war footing because the game that grandiosely appropriates the title "football" has made a pact with the Federal Government to bid for the 2018 World Cup.

Until recently Hans Blix would have found only a bunch of unpaid invoices for the relative firecracker that is the A-League in the FFA bunker. But, in Rudd's patronage, the FFA now possesses a potential weapon of mass persuasion. A chance to sidle up to the Government and, while they are at it, slip a hand in the pocket and grab the funds needed to compete in an escalating arms race.

At the same time, the FFA maintains the handy facade of neutrality.

With the summer A-League not competing head to head with other codes and the World Cup impervious to criticism as a matter of "national interest", it can pretend to be Switzerland as it secretly masses its forces.

The first casualty of war seems to be the Australian Rugby Union which, after recent cuts in government funding, has been left looking as impotent as the Japanese post-disarmament. It does not help that, in a nuclear age, its former generals were still fighting the Boer War. (Or, judging by some Super 14 games, the Bore War.)

Even for a death-or-glory general such as Stormin' John O'Neill, it could already be a matter of damage limitation as everyone goes over the top.
-------------------------------------
 
HitEmHardFreo said:
I'm a fan of Richard Hinds' work. He's balanced, has a great turn of phrase and has no bias for any particular code.
Today's piece in the SMH is among his best, adding some much-needed balance to the debate.

Forces gather for battle to win the west

Richard Hinds, March 1, 2008

IN CASE you spend more time with your nose in the sports section than The Monthly or Quadrant, the so-called culture wars are over. The Cultural Elite Soyaccinos came from behind to beat Balmain Riesling Right with Kevin Rudd's buzzer-beating apology.

But just because we have reached general consensus on things such as reconciliation (good), global warming (not good) and industrial policies that reduce workers' salaries and conditions (also not good), it is not peace in our time.

Stand by for an even bloodier battle in which entrenched prejudices, distorted versions of history and appeals to the best and worst instincts of Australians will again be common. And this time, instead of skirmishing over an asparagus ravioli with a drizzle of truffle oil, you'll be lucky to get a decent pie and chips.

Goodbye culture wars, hello footy wars. And we don't mean the innocuous shadow-boxing in which the four competing codes have engaged over the past two decades, where they would apologetically plonk a franchise in rival territory, hand out freebies to impressionable kiddies like missionaries distributing bibles to illiterate tribesmen, or compete in intellectually bankrupt Aerial Ping-Pongers versus No Necks versus Wogballers debates.

With the Australian Football League stating its intention to accelerate its move into western Sydney and the Gold Coast, and Football Federation Australia enlisting government support for a World Cup bid while expanding the A-League, the Cold War-style division of territory is about to be replaced by hand-to-hand combat.

As the strategic moves in the war rooms of the AFL and FFA escalate tensions, revealing has been the slightly panicked reaction of rugby league diehards at the prospect of the AFL - and, inevitably, the A-League - marshalling forces on the western front.

The Herald's Roy Masters, one of the few experts intimately acquainted with the machinations of both the NRL and AFL, described the AFL push into western Sydney as "misplaced imperialism" - a sentiment that seemed somewhat unusual given he was, at the time, on assignment with the Melbourne Storm.

Meanwhile, a throwaway line by that sabre-rattling AFL nationalist Ron Barassi that Sydney could one day host four teams prompted predictable Churchillian cant from league dial-a-quotes about how the west would never buckle under the AFL's blitzkrieg. "We'll fight them in the bleachers." That sort of thing.

But, despite those stirring words, you detect some frayed nerves among league supporters. Not because of the strength of the AFL's multimillion-dollar push, but because they fear their own forces are not yet up for the fight.

The NRL's hesitancy in expanding its borders and the feudal nature of some traditional heartland clubs - highlighted by the Bulldogs' recent in-fighting - could make the game more vulnerable than some of its sword carriers would like to believe.

The response of NRL supporters and media propagandists - if not the NRL executive - to a potential invasion of the west is a heavy reliance on stubborn, Soviet-style resistance from a large, fanatical band of hard-core westies.

But while they prepare for the Siege of Parramatta, the invaders are already jumping the trenches and infiltrating the population.

Meanwhile, the AFL has moved on to war footing because the game that grandiosely appropriates the title "football" has made a pact with the Federal Government to bid for the 2018 World Cup.

Until recently Hans Blix would have found only a bunch of unpaid invoices for the relative firecracker that is the A-League in the FFA bunker. But, in Rudd's patronage, the FFA now possesses a potential weapon of mass persuasion. A chance to sidle up to the Government and, while they are at it, slip a hand in the pocket and grab the funds needed to compete in an escalating arms race.

At the same time, the FFA maintains the handy facade of neutrality.

With the summer A-League not competing head to head with other codes and the World Cup impervious to criticism as a matter of "national interest", it can pretend to be Switzerland as it secretly masses its forces.

The first casualty of war seems to be the Australian Rugby Union which, after recent cuts in government funding, has been left looking as impotent as the Japanese post-disarmament. It does not help that, in a nuclear age, its former generals were still fighting the Boer War. (Or, judging by some Super 14 games, the Bore War.)

Even for a death-or-glory general such as Stormin' John O'Neill, it could already be a matter of damage limitation as everyone goes over the top.
-------------------------------------
Click to expand...
A good unbiased article.
 
The AFL Fear Factor* in Sydney sees no sign of abating in the bunker at The Daily Terror, by the looks of this piece yesterday...

* Copyright News Ltd, Sydney-Brisbane Chapter

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23297271-5006065,00.html

Emperor Demetriou dominates

By Iain Payten
March 01, 2008 12:00am

IN overseas news, the AFL has revealed it will endorse Hillary Clinton for the Democrat presidential nomination, saying the Senator's experience as a mother, and as a wife whose husband plays home and away, make her ideal for aiding the proliferation of AFL around the globe.

"We wont rest until 'soccer moms' are known as 'Sherrin moms' in every small town in America and Hillary is the female decision-maker in the household we think can help us," said AFL chief emperor-in-chief Andrew Demetriou.

A spokesman for the Clinton campaign responded: "Who said what now?"Peace talks in the Middle East hit a roadblock yesterday with the kidnapping of a senior government official. An AFL spokesman said the development in the troubled region was "an unnecessary disturbance to the expansion of AFL in the Gaza Strip".

In China, the Red Army has agreed to sign a peace pact with the US, Iran, North Korea and Russia in which the countries will shake hands, forget rivalries and divert their military budgets to eliminating global starvation. The AFL said it supported the idea in principle but remained cautious about "the danger of losing sight of the bigger goals of our time, chiefly spreading AFL up the east coast of Australia".

In science news, researchers at Melbourne University (Telstra Dome campus) shocked the global astronomy community with the release of a radical paper titled: "The sun revolves around the AFL: hip-and-shouldering the theories of Copernicus."

Finally, in weather news, it should be mostly sunny this week.The AFL said last night it already knew that.

The AFL has thrust itself into the headlines (the kosher ones, that is) this week with the news it wants to spread the code into western Sydney and Queensland and it's hard to figure what the motivation is aside from bravado.

The AFL runs a very successful, profitable code that already features strong teams in all capital cities of the nation, but given the fervour of the AFL's expansion push this week, it seems like the Aussie rules war council won't rest until they've rolled out eight-posted ovals all over the country.

Throw in the recent games in Dubai, South Africa and London and it's not hard to imagine Emperor Demetriou pushing pieces around a map inside his hollow-volcano lair, stroking a white cat and cackling about world domination and fricken lasers.

OK, so maybe that's a bit rich. There are not that many volcano lairs on the market, and when one does come up there are usually 40 megalomaniacs already queuing to inspect it when you get there.

David Gallop got it spot-on - there seems a bigger-than-Jesus hubris about the AFL these days.

If you didn't get that impression with the whole expansion nonsense, or the West Coast Eagles bikie gang, the midweek comments from AFL on the 2018 Soccer World Cup bid was a killer blow. After K.Rudd announced we may go for the tournament, an AFL talking head declared it would support the bid but had yet to be consulted.

"We haven't heard too much yet. I'd expect we'll be briefed at some stage," the guy said at a press conference.

Aah, why exactly fella? It turns out the WORLD'S BIGGEST SPORTING EVENT would probably need to use the MCG for eight weeks. The AFL might have to shift ovals for a few weeks. In a decade's time.

Obviously, some delicate negotiations there: "Excuse me, Mr McGuire, can we please move Collingwood-Fremantle elsewhere to fit in Brazil-Germany?
"Yeah. Audience of six billion, probably biggest game of all time. Oh, good, I'm glad you see the magnitude. Big all right, mate.

"What's that? Aah, eerh (cough), I'm not sure they'd appreciate being a curtain raiser, Eddie."
 
littleduck said:
A good unbiased article.
Click to expand...

A couple of days late, but this effort reeks of fear and self-interest, from the big fella Searle, and of course, the NRL's mouth-piece, New Ltd:

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23280254-5006065,00.html

Titans boss slams the AFL

0,,5909171,00.jpg


By Karl deKroo
February 27, 2008 12:00am

TITANS boss Michael Searle last night launched an astonishing attack against Australian Football League expansion plans on the Gold Coast, labelling the AFL "cannibals" and vowing to fight to protect his team's turf.

On the eve of the launch of the Titans' second season at the club's new multi-million dollar stadium at Robina, Searle said he had been left seething by AFL suggestions the Titans had got lucky on the Coast.

He said the AFL's aggressive attempt to make its presence felt in the region was the greatest challenge facing his club and he intended to be pro-active in repelling its advances. "I think we have to be,'' Searle said.

"The AFL has shown itself as a sport that wants to cannibalise. It doesn't want to co-exist, it wants to cannibalise. This battle has just begun, but I completely support (NRL chief) David Gallop's comments from last week. We must have a plan that will counteract what the AFL is trying to achieve.''

Gallop last week labelled the AFL arrogant in response to claims from AFL commission chairman Mike Fitzpatrick that the Titans had been "lucky in the way the stars - the government, the region and various other crucial aspects - suddenly aligned''.

Gallop vowed to fight fire with fire as the AFL ramps up efforts to establish a team on the Coast by 2011, and Searle was just as forthright.

"I take great umbrage to the comments from the AFL chairman last week suggesting that the success of the Titans and the NRL on the Gold Coast was some sort of fluke,'' Searle said. "It was a seven-year campaign.

"It was an incredibly arrogant and insulting suggestion. It is always said that the greatest mistake you can make is to underestimate your opponent and clearly the AFL is underestimating our determination to protect our turf.''

Searle admitted the Titans lacked the resources to match the AFL's push in a pure monetary sense, but he felt with the backing of the NRL they would continue to build their brand in Australia's fastest growing city.

"The massive amounts of money that the AFL is looking to pump into this region will be a huge challenge for us,'' Searle said. "We are just one club trying to take on the might of the AFL.

"But I think we have already seen a pretty clear message from the people of the Gold Coast that their loyalty and support can't be bought. It is not for sale.''

The Titans will play their first game at Skilled Park on Saturday night when they contest the inaugural Larry Corowa Shield against Wests Tigers.
 
Sebastian Balboa said:
"Public insult" that no-one really initially heard about but now it's all over the press. So yeah, luck can have its way, I guess.
Click to expand...

No one initially heard?????

It was all over the press, go and look it up.

The AFL is the one that has come in with all guns blazing, do you expect no return fire?

The only fear that I can smell is the realisation from AFL HQ that they have made a monumental stuff up by flagging their plans early and aggressively (giving their rivals years to get ready), trying to kill off a club by trying to force them on an unwilling public, and having this club reject their plans primarily because going in half-cocked, there was no stadium.

This has been followed by a hastily cobbled together Plan B, which with much fanfare and bluster, a new team is said to be setup in only a few short years. Then, after stating that a stadium deal is nearly sewn up with the Qld Government, they announce that there will be no funding.

Whether or not an AFL team will one day be located there, it has been a balls up.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

When did they announce there will be no funding?

I havn't heard anything yet. Demetriou was only stating 2 day's ago they were still in negotiations with QLD Goverment. It would have been all over the papers in Melbourne.
 
Besides, what Searle said was correct, the AFL is incapable of co-existing with other codes, it comes from 100 years of having no competition. They have to kill the opposition in order to grow, unable to share, school yard bully comes to mind, similar to the way the game is played.:)
 
1908 said:
Besides, what Searle said was correct, the AFL is incapable of co-existing with other codes, it comes from 100 years of having no competition. They have to kill the opposition in order to grow, unable to share, school yard bully comes to mind, similar to the way the game is played.:)
Click to expand...


Kill the opposition to grow......?

There is no opposition...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1908
Besides, what Searle said was correct, the AFL is incapable of co-existing with other codes, it comes from 100 years of having no competition. They have to kill the opposition in order to grow, unable to share, ...

True.

Errrm...No. Completely false as a matter of fact.

It's been a while since I was at school but even then we had teams for Aussie Rules, Rugby, soccer, basketball, cricket, hell I was even taught how to play Korfball in PE, a game invented by overall-wearing, Scandinavian basketweavers.

Pretty much any sport was encouraged and this was a school steeped in Aussie Rules tradition.

Compare that to Sydney where I believe for many years the principals of certain private schools wouldn't allow Australian rules to be played. I understand a student petition to have a footy team was even rejected by one principal.

No it's the Union/League types who don't like competition and Searle is just another in a long line of reactionaries.
 
Subprime said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1908
Besides, what Searle said was correct, the AFL is incapable of co-existing with other codes, it comes from 100 years of having no competition. They have to kill the opposition in order to grow, unable to share, ...

True.

Errrm...No. Completely false as a matter of fact.

It's been a while since I was at school but even then we had teams for Aussie Rules, Rugby, soccer, basketball, cricket, hell I was even taught how to play Korfball in PE, a game invented by overall-wearing, Scandinavian basketweavers.

Pretty much any sport was encouraged and this was a school steeped in Aussie Rules tradition.

Compare that to Sydney where I believe for many years the principals of certain private schools wouldn't allow Australian rules to be played. I understand a student petition to have a footy team was even rejected by one principal.

No it's the Union/League types who don't like competition and Searle is just another in a long line of reactionaries.
Click to expand...


Shows you much you know about Sydney.

The same private schools that don't want AFL, also don't play League. They have not allowed it to be part of their curriculum for 100 years.
 
Ronin said:
Shows you much you know about Sydney.

The same private schools that don't want AFL, also don't play League. They have not allowed it to be part of their curriculum for 100 years.
Click to expand...

League and Union have squabbled over talent for decades and given the similarities between the 2 codes any veto is hardly going to damage League in the same way as it has hobbled Aussie Rules' growth.

To try and paint it as some sort of 'class war' between League and Union where Aussie Rules is the unintended victim is a lame attempt to muddy the waters.

Plenty of Rugby types from Sydney 'bat and bowl' and by that I mean follow League and Union. It seems to me that most would believe the real 'enemy' is Aussie Rules.

The ranting and hyperbole being dished up almost daily since the AFL announced its plans for a 2nd NSW club brings into plain view the bigotry that has been evident for eons.

So much for the Union/League fantasy of co-existance with other codes.

It's utter tosh.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Expansion Media reaction: SL-NRL expansion vs. AFL two-team expansion plans

Similar threads

Makeshift Park
A Fed Gov funded NRL team in PNG vs an AFL team in NT
2 3 4
Replies
83
Views
2K
Rob R
R
S
First GF between teams from two traditionally non AFL states.
Replies
8
Views
314
Gavin Excell
Gavin Excell
G
AFL(S): Footy All Year Around, 2nd Tier Leg Up & Expansion
Replies
8
Views
421
Walshawk
Walshawk
Football Tragic
20th AFL License - An Indigenous Team
2 3
Replies
58
Views
2K
HairyO
HairyO
M
Schools to have produced both an AFL and NRL player
2
Replies
39
Views
2K
Wallaby
Wallaby
JHF1870
Has the media disrespected Brisbane?
2 3
Replies
63
Views
2K
Rosscoe_666
Rosscoe_666
_Mike_
News AFL 2024 AFLPA U22 team announced
2
Replies
33
Views
1K
Saints4ever
S

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top