Coach Michael Voss

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Gronkk said:
People have this idea that because we've been at the bottom for so long and had so many high draft picks, we should therefore be challenging for Premierships right now, and if we're not, the coach must be held to account.

The problem is: it's one thing to have a large amount of high draft picks, it's another thing to actually recruit good players with them. We have gone down the exact same path the Gold Coast have been on since their inception: poor recruiting leads to poor list. They let Scott Clayton handle all their recruiting for almost a decade, and it left their list in a state where they just cannot make progress no matter how hard they try.

Everyone gets sucked into the illusion that there is a "clear" best player for every draft year, and a no-brainer for pick 1. In 2015, that player was Jacob Weitering. Three picks later, Melbourne made the more unorthodox selection of Clayton Oliver, who didn't even get selected for the U18 Championships. In the end, Melbourne ended up with the far superior player. If our recruiter at the time (SOS) had the vision to recognize who the better player was in this instance, it would've made a huge difference to where we're at today.

That's just one example too, and not even close to the worst. Pick 6 on Petrevski-Seton, pick 3 on Dow, overpaying for Kennedy, overpaying for Cerra, overpaying for McGovern, overpaying for Saad.
With the examples we've overpaid for, smart players get this level of player from the bargain bin. Look at Geelong: Atkins, Stengle, Miers, Close, Menegola, Smith, I could go on. All of these guys were acquired for a bag of chips, and yielded Geelong a much better on-field return than what we got from our trades.

Anyway, the point of all this is that you can't just blame everything on the coach. The rot goes far deeper than any of you want to admit.
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no
 
kreuze_missile said:
The primary role of a senior coach is to extract maximum performance from their playing list.

Right now Nic Newman is the only player in our best 22 who I think Voss is getting maximum performance from. A case could be made for Cerra and Charlie Curnow but I think both have the potential to be even better. Perhaps Hollands as a first year player, and Ed Curnow because he's got nothing left to give - but that's it.

By comparison the list of best 22 players who are underperfoming huge.. Silvagni, Motlop, Kennedy, Cripps, McKay, McGovern, DeKoning, Acers, Docherty, Walsh, Durdin, Weitering, Fisher, Hewett, Young, Saad & Owies.

Having so many players underperforming at one signals the end of a coaches career.

It's no longer a matter of if, but when.
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I agree there is a lot of our list that just isn’t performing or jelling in the game plan (if you can call it that). I’ve lost a lot of confidence in Voss and the coaching staff but not sure axing yet another Coach is the answer or just getting some assistance in to get the balance and strategy right in the coaching team. The board are going to have a lot of pressure and thinking to do if this year doesn’t improve.
 

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Doro said:
Solution - Maximum 6 month contract- a bold 'new coach bounce ' innovation to take the league by storm.
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Solution for whoever was appointed was a 5 year contract and let them mold the team to their vision.

Ratten had rolling 2yrs?
Mick 3yrs
Bolton 3yrs
Teague 3yr? But covid clause?
Voss 3yrs.

I thought in 2021 whoever it is that we appointed coach, the administration needed to back them in for 5yrs. That takes the external pressure off, signals support in the coach to the media and importantly playing group.

I am not saying, lets go extend Voss. But this discussion now, on his tenure, is being had because he has 1.5yrs left, and will be coaching for his contract.

There is an inherent risk here. Coaches coaching for their contract, can lead to short term decision making in relation to player selection and list management in general, as they focus on the now.

Wins now, keep them employed.


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jpfalvo said:
Solution for whoever was appointed was a 5 year contract and let them mold the team to their vision.

Ratten had rolling 2yrs?
Mick 3yrs
Bolton 3yrs
Teague 3yr? But covid clause?
Voss 3yrs.

I thought in 2021 whoever it is that we appointed coach, the administration needed to back them in for 5yrs. That takes the external pressure off, signals support in the coach to the media and importantly playing group.

I am not saying, lets go extend Voss. But this discussion now, on his tenure, is being had because he has 1.5yrs left, and will be coaching for his contract.

There is an inherent risk here. Coaches coaching for their contract, can lead to short term decision making in relation to player selection and list management in general, as they focus on the now.

Wins now, keep them employed.


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5 yrs, what I posted in this very thread a few weeks back
 
Voss is a dead man walking. He wont change, he cant change. What you see now is what you get. The lack of innovation, the confusion on field, the selfish nihlistic coaching - dont lose by too much but dont take the game on.
I hate saying it but better to lose the next 3 and make it clear to everyone that his plan failed. So sad, another trashed year.
 
Michael Jezz said:
Have you seen this before?
We sack the coach
The new coach takes the shackles off.
We play well for half a season
The competition works us out.
We start losing
.The coach adds layers to the game plan
The players aren't smart enough or talented enough to absorb the plan.
We keep losing.
We sack another coach.....perhaps to break this cycle we need to look somewhere other than the senior coach
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New coach effect, fools us every time.
 
Unless something extraordinary happens, I can't see the club moving on from Voss until around this time next year.
We are onto our 4th coach in 10 years. We've tried the experienced legend, the inexperienced star pupil of a legend, the caretaker and now the second chance coach... Our captain has been around for all of them.

Maybe it is time the skipper puts his energy into galvanizing the group to come together and work through this one rather than trying to make another change.

What are we going to get? Another caretaker sugar hit? Dead cat bounce next year?
 
To put something here in perspective:

Lets forget the West Coast game. They are in unique circumstances due to injury and are essentially a bye at this point - they just lost to 17th by 116 points.


remove that match and we have now lost 5 matches in a row by more than 20 points, and have not scored 75 points in any of those matches.

In our 22 years of ineptitude, this has mever happened. We have only three times in that entire span lost 5 straight by 20+ points (in 2003 and 2005 and 2007 - the last led to Pagan's sacking) but in all of those streaks we were at least able to kick a score. We have once (i think) gone 5 straight weeks under 75 (under Bolton) but we won a mat h in there.

Bluntly, our current performance is arguably as bleak as anything we have seen. This is a rare combination of being uncompetitive and boring. We haven't had the 100 pt losses of the past but the stands are emptying nonetheless.

And this is with a team stacked with good players in its prime. Pagan and Bolton were dealing with youngsters and teams scraped together from the recycling bin.
 
How do clubs stack their assistant roles and we take whoever can't get a job?

Collingwood take two guys who were at the best club at the time (Richmond) and make them the backbone of their coaching setup.

We take a guy who was a failed Brisbane coach and a port assistant and a heap of rubbish. Happens every time.

Collingwood are a far far better club than us, they have been for 23 years, they have been leaps and bounds ahead. As have too many others. Our hiring process takes no notice of credentials or they can't get anyone, or both.
 

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WalshYouLegend said:
I agree there is a lot of our list that just isn’t performing or jelling in the game plan (if you can call it that). I’ve lost a lot of confidence in Voss and the coaching staff but not sure axing yet another Coach is the answer or just getting some assistance in to get the balance and strategy right in the coaching team. The board are going to have a lot of pressure and thinking to do if this year doesn’t improve.
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Carlton needs new leadership and direction at all levels. This needs to start with an external review that is all encompassing and not just about the football department.

I do not buy into the argument that we can't sack another coach. What we need to do is fix the issues that have led us to appoint multiple poor ones, and fix them before we make the next coaching decision. An interim coach can serve successfully until then.

Voss needs to depart urgently because there is need for immediate improvement in on-field performance. In the middle of the season sacking a coach is the only lever that can be pulled. There is still a season to be salvaged. If the players respond like they did to Teague's appointment then we could still play finals this year. A proper process for appointing the next coach can follow.

A new coach will likely bring changes to the assistant coaching group. We get minimal insight into what any of them actually do, but based on CV's and experience alone they are a mediocre looking group compared to the likes of Collingwood and Melbourne.

Brad Lloyd as Head of Football needs to fall on his sword. If Voss goes this will be the third coach sacked in his 5 year tenure. Lloyd has put together arguably the worst coaching departments in the business, with zero senior assistants surrounding Voss. Many questionable list management decisions under his tenure. Poor salary cap management. The handling of Stephen Silvagni's departure. And the list of failures under his tenure goes on and on.

Change is also likely needed at board level. Greg Williams is the only football person on this board. The rest are corporates with fancy CV's and skill set that may or may not have any relevance to football. Luke Sayers has been a member of Carlton's board for 11 of the worst years in the club's history. Ditto for Craig Matheison and his 10 year tenure. Patricia Kinnersley should be marched solely for her influence in Carlton not appointing Ross Lyon. David Campbell is meant to bring Talent Advisory expertise to the board during his tenure, yet he will have been invovled in two unsuccessful senior coaching appointments in Voss and Teague.
 
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How many coaches and how many players are going to be burned at the stake before something is done about the administration and powerbrokers that cripple this club.

Bring in Choco Williams. His coaching record is good enough and he won’t be beholden to any outside group. "Allan Scott, you were wrong!" Is the best idea to right this ship
 
I've tried to stay away from this place but when you need to vent, you need to get it all out! I just need help though. In the last say 30 years how many times has a head coach failed at one club and then been hired again somewhere else and been successful??

My opinion has always been an untried assistant hired in a head coach role is always better than a failed coach at another club.

I'm struggling to be positive about us but when you watch our games it's kind of hard to be.
 
moocow said:
How many coaches and how many players are going to be burned at the stake before something is done about the administration and powerbrokers that cripple this club.

Bring in Choco Williams. His coaching record is good enough and he won’t be beholden to any outside group. "Allan Scott, you were wrong!" Is the best idea to right this ship
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Why would Choco or any other good assistant coach come to Carlton, it’s the place that coaches come to die.

But agree Voss has some strengths just needs some help with his weaknesses.
 
I don't like the way we play under Voss. Unless he changes things up, I don't see him coaching in 2024. He's got the rest of the season to show something - not much point in a coaching change before the season is done IMO. Just muddies the waters when it comes to choosing the next coach.
 
Jeremias said:
How were the Giants going in 2011 when he joined them?
What about the Tigers in 2013?
Melbourne 2020?
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Don’t know but if they were as shite as we are, we are a chance then.

But in all seriousness I believe stick with Voss as the players are still giving good effort and is a great leader, just need some very good tactical assistant coaches to help with game plan and the inside 50 connect.
 

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Coach Michael Voss

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