Coach Michael Voss

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Wickzki said:
Regarding our skill level, I personally find the list structure to be odd. I feel that if you're going to field a team that is athletically slower than the majority of other teams that in order to be successful those players would be of greater skill by disposal. For example, we were among the least athletic teams in the competition when we won the 1995 premiership "too old, too slow..." but we were way too skilled across the ground and we more than made up for it.

The 22 that we sent out against St Kilda (and what were forced to do most weeks) is neither elite in skill nor athletically gifted. As a result, there's no making up for our lack of athleticism via skill nor any making up the lack of skill via athleticism.

This is where we really suffer from having half a dozen players on the list who are either never available or just aren't up to AFL standard.

Nick Austin has the most important draft, trade and free agency of his career this year. We start by thanking those who just won't get onto the park consistently for their years of service and constant rehabilitation (it's bloody hard work, often lonely and depressing AF) and moving on from them.

This will immediately present the club with a golden opportunity to replace them with players who should have an infinitely higher floor. It also allows us a chance to strengthen the list with players who give us greater scope and decrease list deficiencies.

Simply put, Vossy isn't a miracle worker. I'm not cutting my losses with him yet. He does need to be less rigid in his gameplan and structure than what he currently is and there's room for improvement in other areas but truth be told he is far from the biggest problem right now.

If 2023 plays out in the way that it looks like it may, it can be the biggest bump in the road we've had yet but the scope is there for easy improvement.

Go Blues.
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Not sure how what you describe here is "easy improvement". Its not like we traditionally nail drafts or successfully develop players.
 

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Lace_Out said:
You're probably right. Watching it again, and a bit more closely (the 2nd interaction between them).

I'm just really peeved at where we are as a team after so long. It's depressing.

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Sure is. But I dont think this thread will fix it.
Pretty certain its not coaching that's wrong.
That said the coaches do need to sort this playing list out.
I think we still play like overenthusiastic boys a lot, as opposed to seasoned hardened warriors and men.
 
bourbons said:
Not sure how what you describe here is "easy improvement". Its not like we traditionally nail drafts or successfully develop players.
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Nick Austin joined the club in Feb 2020.

2020 AFL Draft: Corey Durdin (tick), Jack Carroll (lots of promise)

2021 AFL Draft: Jesse Motlop (tick)

2022 AFL Draft: Ollie Hollands (tick), Lachie Cowan (tick), Jaxon Binns (performing well in the VFL), Harry Lemmey (lots of positives)

We've done very well in the draft since Austin came on board.

Traditionally, you're right. However, we can only judge based on whose in the role now.

Edit/add: re: easy improvement - simply fielding players who aren't constantly injured and never available is a darn sight better than seeing the same familiar players on the weekly injury list who can't be of help in the VFL let alone the AFL squads. Talent ID isn't the problem (to the level at any rate) that it once was. Strengthening the VFL program helps position younger players to succeed sooner in the AFL so even if they're all just depth pieces it's beneficial.
 
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Wickzki said:
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Nick Austin joined the club in Feb 2020.

2020 AFL Draft: Corey Durdin (tick), Jack Carroll (lots of promise)

2021 AFL Draft: Jesse Motlop (tick)

2022 AFL Draft: Ollie Hollands (tick), Lachie Cowan (tick), Jaxon Binns (performing well in the VFL), Harry Lemmey (lots of positives)

We've done very well in the draft since Austin came on board.

Traditionally, you're right. However, we can only judge based on whose in the role now.
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He’s going pretty well Austin I feel.
Hopefully we can get a few more good years and keep building.

I suspect a heavier turnover this year.
 
Wickzki said:
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Nick Austin joined the club in Feb 2020.

2020 AFL Draft: Corey Durdin (tick), Jack Carroll (lots of promise)

2021 AFL Draft: Jesse Motlop (tick)

2022 AFL Draft: Ollie Hollands (tick), Lachie Cowan (tick), Jaxon Binns (performing well in the VFL), Harry Lemmey (lots of positives)

We've done very well in the draft since Austin came on board.

Traditionally, you're right. However, we can only judge based on whose in the role now.

Edit/add: re: easy improvement - simply fielding players who aren't constantly injured and never available is a darn sight better than seeing the same familiar players on the weekly injury list who can't be of help in the VFL let alone the AFL squads. Talent ID isn't the problem (to the level at any rate) that it once was. Strengthening the VFL program helps position younger players to succeed sooner in the AFL so even if they're all just depth pieces it's beneficial.
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Hmm maybe, Hollands is the only one I'd have as a clear tick at this stage. Cowan I'm less bullish on but should be ok, looks like a footy player and hard at it at least which we desperately need.

Not convinced at all on Motlop and Durdin. I get that they're only 20 and really only 1 season in, but even considering that they both completely disappear far too often for mine (like totally invisible, I'm checking if they've been subbed off level stuff). Neither are particularly quick either and seem pretty incapable of applying much forward half pressure which is a non-negotiable for small forwards in the modern game. Jack Carroll only 6 games but I just don't see the promise at all, has looked well out of place in those 6 games imo.

But reasonable point, hopefully I'm wrong on Motlop and Durdin - and Austin is actually displaying a better strike rate than we've had previously.
 
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bourbons said:
Hmm maybe, Hollands is the only one I'd have as a clear tick at this stage. Cowan I'm less bullish on but should be ok, looks like a footy player and hard at it at least which we desperately need.

Not convinced at all on Motlop and Durdin. I get that they're only 20 and really only 1 season in, but even considering that they both completely disappear far too often for mine (like totally invisible, I'm checking if they've been subbed off level stuff). Neither are particularly quick either and seem pretty incapable of applying much forward half pressure which is a non-negotiable for small forwards in the modern game. Jack Carroll only 6 games but I just don't see the promise at all, has looked well out of place in those 6 games imo.

But reasonable point, hopefully I'm wrong on Motlop and Durdin - and Austin is actually displaying a better strike rate than we've had previously.
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Agree on Hollands and IMO Durdin and Motlop both show potential, Durdin's pressure is pretty good (3rd for tackle average as small forward) but so far both are not the goal kicking small forwards that we really need.

Though with the lack of pressure from the rest of the forward line & craptastic accuracy from JSOS and Harry my feeling is that the whole forward line is less than the sum of its parts
 
Gavstar said:
Agree on Hollands and IMO Durdin and Motlop both show potential, Durdin's pressure is pretty good (3rd for tackle average as small forward) but so far both are not the goal kicking small forwards that we really need.

Though with the lack of pressure from the rest of the forward line & craptastic accuracy from JSOS and Harry my feeling is that the whole forward line is less than the sum of its parts
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Need to combine that third for tackle averages inside 50 with a stat like number of contested marks brought to ground/stoppages in the 50 too. I would imagine we have an outlandish number of forward 50 contests, that our smalls are second to so they can appear to have good tackle and pressure numbers.... but the eyes say they don't.
 
Gavstar said:
Agree on Hollands and IMO Durdin and Motlop both show potential, Durdin's pressure is pretty good (3rd for tackle average as small forward) but so far both are not the goal kicking small forwards that we really need.

Though with the lack of pressure from the rest of the forward line & craptastic accuracy from JSOS and Harry my feeling is that the whole forward line is less than the sum of its parts
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Yeah they don't seem to be in the right place front and centre of packs to crumb contests very often do they. That should improve with experience though, and god knows it would be hard enough knowing where the ball is likely to drop the way its coming in currently lol.

I'm still more worried about their lack of pressure at this stage, very surprised to hear Durdin is 3rd for tackle average. Must be in close and congested situations, he's sure not running anyone down.
 
Michael Jezz said:
3 times in 8 years apparantly it was the coaches. We sacked the coach for littlr benefit. I really think the torch needs to be applied to the playing group because
A) they are entitled
B) Comfortable
C) lack leadership
D) Don't understanding a winning mindset

Start by dropping 4 or 5 this week including a big namr
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I don’t think many if any want Voss sacked, but questioning him is fine as we look terrible at the moment.

I think it’s a product of the list to a degree as well, and we need to bolster our assistant coaches.

I mean every clubs list has weaknesses and when you aren’t playing well it’s magnified. Issue is with us, we have never really shown we are better than a mid pack side. The 8-2 last year did flatter us, with wins v Tigers, Dogs, Hawks, Port and Swans coming from a burst here or there in a game (that is the optimum you will get from this group I think), we aren’t capable of putting anyone to the sword and winning by 50-60 points as our fitness/leg speed isn’t up to it.

I’ve lowered my expectations a lot, I was thinking top 6 maybe top 4 earlier in the year, now I’m thinking probably not the 8.
 
bourbons said:
As above - Dow and Carroll would get absolutely creamed against AFL standard mids.
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I’m not against picking Dow, nor do I expect much at the same time. The issue is I’m not sure he offered us anything different or better than Cripps, Hewett or Kennedy. We are using kennedy at half back due to our list being so unbalanced, so adding another inside mid to the mix I can’t see helping much. From a selection integrity point of view he probably deserves a go, and drop/rest Hewett.

I think Carroll has some more tricks but not convinced he will make it long term either, but he deserves opportunities if he’s performing in the VFL (37 touches last week). Id bring Carroll in for Honey.
 

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Blue1980 said:
I’m not against picking Dow, nor do I expect much at the same time. The issue is I’m not sure he offered us anything different or better than Cripps, Hewett or Kennedy. We are using kennedy at half back due to our list being so unbalanced, so adding another inside mid to the mix I can’t see helping much. From a selection integrity point of view he probably deserves a go, and drop/rest Hewett.

I think Carroll has some more tricks but not convinced he will make it long term either, but he deserves opportunities if he’s performing in the VFL (37 touches last week). Id bring Carroll in for Honey.
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Instead of LOB as sub, why wouldn't it hurt to have tried Dow? Ed's looking a bit tired and sore at the moment, so will be amusing if we're talking mid for mid and Dow doesn't get a look in this week.
 
Blue1980 said:
I’m not against picking Dow, nor do I expect much at the same time. The issue is I’m not sure he offered us anything different or better than Cripps, Hewett or Kennedy. We are using kennedy at half back due to our list being so unbalanced, so adding another inside mid to the mix I can’t see helping much. From a selection integrity point of view he probably deserves a go, and drop/rest Hewett.

I think Carroll has some more tricks but not convinced he will make it long term either, but he deserves opportunities if he’s performing in the VFL (37 touches last week). Id bring Carroll in for Honey.
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Yeah I'm a bit the same, not really against it either the way they're going and maybe send a bit of a message to one our walk up starters, but you pretty much know what you're gonna get at this stage with Dow.

We've been here plenty of times before, he's just one of those guys who is a gun 2s player but is somehow not within cooee of AFL standard. Would have been traded last year if anyone was interested, will be delisted this year.
 
SkyhorseTamer said:
Yes they do. The 5 year plan, Sayers chest beating. The clubs been quite vocal about our prospects and expectations
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Sayers very vocal about finals the expectation for 2022, in August 2021 before Voss was even hired.

Said it the day Teague was sacked. And a widely understood expectation for 2021 itself and a reason for Teague being sacked.

Club has been bullish on the expectation. Rightly so. The 2015 draft has come of age.

List accolades are amazing...
5 AA, 2 Colemans medallist, 1 Brownlow winner and 1 Brownlow place getter.

Missed 2022 by decimal point percentage.

Why would anyone run away from such a clear and defined benchmark with the talent at our disposal.

Accountability is a good thing to have in any professional business. Shifting KPIs to suit a narrative, once the KPI has been missed is not good practice
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passmark said:
A lot of “we should have got Lyon” talk.
Left St Kilda in a hole and failed to make finals his last 4 years at the Dockers.

Left both clubs acrimoniously and had had plenty of people critical of his management style.

We have enough culture issues without appointing a campaigner.

Last 5 flags
Simpson (supportive coach great admin)
Hardwick (prick of a player but supportive coach + great admin)
Goodwin (supportive coach + good admin)
Scott (Supportive coach + great admin)

Yes, Lyon has them going great but who just beat them? mcCrae , supportive coach.

I think Voss is a supportive coach but we have an admin that still hasn’t proved itself competent. Plus, this list has holes.
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Need to add some further clarity here on the successes of both Hardwick and Goodwin.

Hardwick had Neil Balme brought in to help him. It was seen as a major propellant to 2017 success at the time.

Goodwin had Mark Williams brought in as a senior mentor, again seen as major propellant in 2021.

What I have understood since the Bolton era is why we havent added our own Senior assistant/ mentor.

Bolton under Neil Craig, had a very good year and we seemed to go ok. Once Craig left that role was never adequately replaced.

I'd contend, it led to Boltons demise, Teague could have done with one, and Voss now, could do with one...

To follow the Hardwick/ Goodwin models, we should consider this.

Simpson had a unique system, and also got the team to a GF prior to his premiership

Scott, acknowledged he had to change his method to succeed, but also had the experience of finals and grand finals under the belt...

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Arr0w said:
Wouldn't be a club in the land that doesn't state the expectations would be finals
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I dont mind them setting the expectation. Its fine. And its about time this list delivers on a finals birth. Premierships are hard to win, but finals is not unreasonable as an expectation with what we have.

But if we were to miss 2 years in a row, and Voss goes into his final year of contract, the pressure will be enormous.

The risk, is short term decision making to save his job, to the detriment of the list and broader sustainability/ stability of the club.

I said in 2021, whoever we hired as coach needed 5 yrs to make the list and gameplan his own, without unnecessary pressure.

Its similar to Ratten era Carlton, where Ratten was never fully supported from a contractual basis, and thus was always coaching for his contract. Did a good job under the circumstances but the list was shown to have holes in it...

Really important now to avoid short term decision making. If Voss is the man, back him in and get the requisite support ASAP.

I'm not convinced by our assistants at all. I think it starts there



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jpfalvo said:
Need to add some further clarity here on the successes of both Hardwick and Goodwin.

Hardwick had Neil Balme brought in to help him. It was seen as a major propellant to 2017 success at the time.

Goodwin had Mark Williams brought in as a senior mentor, again seen as major propellant in 2021.

What I have understood since the Bolton era is why we havent added our own Senior assistant/ mentor.

Bolton under Neil Craig, had a very good year and we seemed to go ok. Once Craig left that role was never adequately replaced.

I'd contend, it led to Boltons demise, Teague could have done with one, and Voss now, could do with one...

To follow the Hardwick/ Goodwin models, we should consider this.

Simpson had a unique system, and also got the team to a GF prior to his premiership

Scott, acknowledged he had to change his method to succeed, but also had the experience of finals and grand finals under the belt...

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Williams was shunted from the Tigers before they won 3 flags

Simpson never had a senior mentor winning a flag, neither did Beveridge, neither did Brad Scott, Longmire

While it could help, its not a main component to the ultimate success
 
jpfalvo said:
I dont mind them setting the expectation. Its fine. And its about time this list delivers on a finals birth. Premierships are hard to win, but finals is not unreasonable as an expectation with what we have.

But if we were to miss 2 years in a row, and Voss goes into his final year of contract, the pressure will be enormous.

The risk, is short term decision making to save his job, to the detriment of the list and broader sustainability/ stability of the club.

I said in 2021, whoever we hired as coach needed 5 yrs to make the list and gameplan his own, without unnecessary pressure.

Its similar to Ratten era Carlton, where Ratten was never fully supported from a contractual basis, and thus was always coaching for his contract. Did a good job under the circumstances but the list was shown to have holes in it...

Really important now to avoid short term decision making. If Voss is the man, back him in and get the requisite support ASAP.

I'm not convinced by our assistants at all. I think it starts there



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With all due respect JP, you trott this out on a regular basis, "club stated finals" like you think it's a given, then use it as accountability evidence against the board/president/club

We have debated this before, the number one factor is a talented, cohesive, mature list

Clarkson before and after the elite talent is the best example to absorb
 

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Coach Michael Voss

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