next brisbane coach (after voss)

[Gibbo_88]

Seeing as Clark failing so far as a forward has been talked about in this thread a bit I thought i'd post this article that Matthews has written for the AFL website. http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/110920/default.aspx

The match-up that defined that attitude, whether by design or accident, was that between Richmond second-gamer Reece Conca and St Kilda veteran Stephen Milne.

From early on it was clear that Milne was too good for his younger opponent in the one-on-one contest. And when Milney believes he has an opponent he can out-body he is at his most confident and most dangerous. If it had been a grand final I am positive Conca would have been moved off Milne by mid-way through the first quarter.

Instead, they balanced the immediate needs of the team against the impact of moving Conca off Milne too early, thereby sending a 'we have no faith in you' message, and how long was too long for Conca to play on Milne, perhaps affecting his ongoing confidence.

It is a bit different with Clark because he is obviously not a first year player but he did have a few seasons of injury before he came into the side consistently. I can't see Clark working as a key position defender like some people have suggested. He worked as a loose man filling in space in 2009 but he didn't have an opponent to look after. I hope we persist with him up forward, that's the set up that was practiced during the pre-season and it falls apart without Brown but we have to come up with a plan B anyway when Brown's back if his opponent is beating him. I feel i'm being too optimistic about him making it as a forward (like 3KZ on Charman making it back into the team) but who knows, as Tommy Rockliff said "Mitch Clark might just explode this week and kick a bag", he's also had a haircut so he's a big chance to

 

[Lets Roar like '44]

I have a problem with this. Firstly, With Clark, Brown and Staker we do play a 3 tall forward line on a normal day, just as we did with Fev, Brown and Staker last year. Second, why the hell would the coach make structural changes to the game plan just so the fans can know the coach sees what we see.

This is my point, Voss was coaching his same game plan as he always does, 3 forwards, well guess what Vossy, this time it wasnt working. He can get away with it when Brown's playing, but now he isnt, you cant just continue the same old game plan every week when you only have 4 goals on the board.

Going off a premature there don't you think for a coach that did coach us to a finals win in his first season. 2nd season was hit hard by injuries after starting well and the 3rd year is a start of a rebuild. What the heck are you judging him on in such a small time frame ?

Pretty sure I already posted the answer to this, the game plan! And last year when we were 4-0, every time we came from behind, and not one of those wins was convincing, it was only going to be a matter of time until it was found out.

Have you considered the thought that we are sticking to our game plan in an effort to coach the plathora on young talent coming through how we play ? Tell me, what is the use of changing everything every qtr, is that not just going to confuse our young players and teach them not to stick to structures ? Granted, it was working overly well that game, but given we lost 2 of our best forwards in round 1 the cards are a little stacked against us. It is now the coaching panels job to fix this.

I have considered this, and this is my problem. You tell me what was his game plan on Sunday? Structures? Voss has structures, but like I said, refuses to adapt to the game situation as its happening. His structures are set from the bounce til the end, regardless of whats happening in the game.

I thought Raines did a pretty good effort on Cooney to be honest, it was the likes of Boyd and Griffin that did most of the damage i think. You also didn't see anyone get dragged from poor efforts because your about the only one that seems to think they guys didn't put it. Appart from 1 or 2 players, the effort was great, things just weren't happening for us

I have definately seen worse efforts in my time, and this is other problem, if the boys are giving absolutely everything, and doing everything right, who do we blame for losing by 80 points?

Injuries are affecting how we play, we have lost a vital position in CHF and we are still trying to figure out how to get around that. We are playing with a very young team, skill level and missed tackles are going to happen, it's the traits of a young team. It's time i think you need a hard look at where we are as a team and re-evaluate your expectations. On top of the youngsters, we had a few players play below average, it happens. However, i saw plenty of guys giving it their all. Adcock was hit and miss, he did some great stuff, but also had some bad aspects of his game.

We had half of last year and 6 months off to try and figure out how to play without a CHF. Thats why he gets a million dollars and has 5 assistants.

It's round 2 of the first year of rebuilding, just what are you expecting to see so early ? The kids stepping up is part and parcel of rebuilding.

Perhaps they know what they are doing, just because they aren't doing what you would do doesn't mean they are doing something wrong.[/B]

It does mean that, if I and everyone else who doesnt have rose coloured colours on can see it, why cant Voss. Im not asking for miracles, I just want to see him adapt to the game situations, if something isnt working, change it.

 

[chopperduck]

It has nothing to do with rose coloured glasses 44. It's not about being negative either, people like yourself are allowed to have their opinion, but it is a lot better to have discussions come out of it rather than just saying balls to everything and everyone who doesn't see it your way.

Who says Voss doesn't see it your way. I'm pretty sure the coaching panel are well aware of what went wrong against the dogs, it doesn't mean they have to change anything though. Our 22 has changed very dramatically over the past 2 years, and will continue too over the next few as we start our rebuild. Voss and Co are trying to get a game style and game plan for the team to play, to do this we need to actually play with it, working or not. We can't change our entire game plan come round 2 because Browny isn't there. Good teams are well drilled in the game plan, and great teams like Collingwood make that game plan happen, even if players need to be changed. With all the new faces, and especially the inexperienced new youngsters, perhaps the coaching staff value sticking to the plan and trying to get the players use to it higher than switching things.

Reality of it is, Dogs are a top 4 team and we are a bottom 4. It's not to say we shouldn't try, but we are probably going to be soundly beaten. It's best to play our way, and try make that happen against good teams rather than change everyhing to reduce the margin. We are a learning team, and we are going to have a few hard lessons over the course of the next few years. If we are to come out the otherside better for it, we need to be doing things correct now.

 

[Ceebee]

Nice post Chopperduck ,although in reality we have been trying to rebuild since 2005. so many players have been and gone in that time.

Guess thats what happens after a period of sustained success.

 

[chopperduck]

Yeah that's kinda my point, it's been a very slow gradual decline, then we kinda propped back up again in 09, but since then we've lost any decent middle aged players we had managed to keep that were any good, and we are now right at the start of a youth based rebuild. There aren't a lot of players 'coming through' that are from before the 08 draft, that is how young our team is. Anyone on our list before then haven't really cracked the 22. That kinda shows our strength in our recruited before 08 as well, and we've had a few good picks in that period as well.

Best news is that it doesn't seem 08 was a one off good draft for us, the 09 class is really starting to take a bit of shape now with the likes of O'Brien really putting his hand up for a regular spot. Very promising for the future.

 

[John]

Admittedly I did go off the handle a bit, but thats what this club and a lot of its supporters do to ya. I asked a few very valid questions, and appreciated the feedback, but these questions I raised have nothing to do with injuries or bad luck.

So I sent you "off the handle a bit" because you did not like my replies that were given with no insult to you and also given in the spirit of good debate among 2 supporters of the same footy club?

The questions you raised have a lot to do with injury among the other issues that I discussed with you and I would suggest that you reread my original post again to get the grasp of the points I was making but I suspect that what you really wanted was complete agreement with everything that you said. I no more expect you to agree with me than I do with you but remember you received something rare on this site, someone that was someone happy to talk on a sensible level about the game.
Just remember 3 things that 1) I ain't ya enemy 2) there is no 2nd point and 3) impersonations of Richmond supporters does not do anyone of us any good at all.

I could reply further to your other posts but I might go lurk for a week or two as I am not particularly in the mood at this point in time. Peace.

 

[Lace Out]

If it doesn't work out with Vossy by the end of 2012 I would go with Joyce Brown cos then we would still have a Browny.

 

[Lets Roar like '44]

So I sent you "off the handle a bit" because you did not like my replies that were given with no insult to you and also given in the spirit of good debate among 2 supporters of the same footy club?

The questions you raised have a lot to do with injury among the other issues that I discussed with you and I would suggest that you reread my original post again to get the grasp of the points I was making but I suspect that what you really wanted was complete agreement with everything that you said. I no more expect you to agree with me than I do with you but remember you received something rare on this site, someone that was someone happy to talk on a sensible level about the game.
Just remember 3 things that 1) I ain't ya enemy 2) there is no 2nd point and 3) impersonations of Richmond supporters does not do anyone of us any good at all.

I could reply further to your other posts but I might go lurk for a week or two as I am not particularly in the mood at this point in time. Peace.

No its wasnt you who sent me off me handle, its a build up of nonsense I hear from lions supporters. I am not happy with the display the Lions have put up, and I will vent it, and Im especially not happy that they cry out for more and more Victorian members, but as usual, give us rubbish every time they come here.

Just as Gerard Healy said last year, this team was worse than Fitzroy, and Im yet to see any improvements in game plans and "structures" so far. The players will improve over time, but unless the coach is willing to get a game plan that allows it to be altered according to match situations, then we are going to continue to struggle.

I cant stand Richmond supporters as much as anyone, but you know what, they might be feral, but you never see them clap their team off the ground after a 13 goal flogging. Supporters shouldnt be happy with that result, no matter how much of a twist people try put on it, clapping those players off after losing like that makes me sick. We've had 6 years to re- build a team, there's no more excuses.

 

[Ceebee]

Six years to rebuild since three Premierships and four grand finals, you are a hard man to please 44.
The team we played on Sun, has lost three Prelim finals in a row, and not won a Premiership since 54.
Their supporters would just about kill for what we achieved, as would quite a few other clubs with very little success.

We need patience, and I am guessng you are an old Fitzroy fan, you possibly would have been used to not much success, till the merge happened.

 

[LIONHART]

No its wasnt you who sent me off me handle, its a build up of nonsense I hear from lions supporters. I am not happy with the display the Lions have put up, and I will vent it, and Im especially not happy that they cry out for more and more Victorian members, but as usual, give us rubbish every time they come here.

Just as Gerard Healy said last year, this team was worse than Fitzroy, and Im yet to see any improvements in game plans and "structures" so far. The players will improve over time, but unless the coach is willing to get a game plan that allows it to be altered according to match situations, then we are going to continue to struggle.

I cant stand Richmond supporters as much as anyone, but you know what, they might be feral, but you never see them clap their team off the ground after a 13 goal flogging. Supporters shouldnt be happy with that result, no matter how much of a twist people try put on it, clapping those players off after losing like that makes me sick. We've had 6 years to re- build a team, there's no more excuses.

i'm with you '44. as much as i hate collingwood they were our opponents in two of the three priemierships, nearly ten years and their still in the top three best in the comp. there supporters haven't had to accept mediocrity under the guise of rebuilding. clapping a team of for encouragement is one thing, but it also sends the message that we are excepting sub-standard performances because we are rebuilding, 2010 & those trade duds set us back years in our rebuilding

 

[Gibbo_88]

I cant stand Richmond supporters as much as anyone, but you know what, they might be feral, but you never see them clap their team off the ground after a 13 goal flogging.

They just spit on them instead

 

[dlanod]

i'm with you '44. as much as i hate collingwood they were our opponents in two of the three priemierships, nearly ten years and their still in the top three best in the comp. there supporters haven't had to accept mediocrity under the guise of rebuilding.

Collingwood had a couple of mediocre years, including a priority pick which got them Dale Thomas. They also had a much younger team than us (I still think they overachieved in reaching those GFs) with nine of their 2003 team still playing as of last year as opposed to seven of our's, including Akermanis and Charman. Their big win was in better drafting than us of players who are now hitting their straps:
2005 - Thomas, Pendlebury and Toovey vs Clark, Patfull and Stiller
2006 - Reid, Brown, Dawes, Dick, Goldsack, Wellingham, Macaffer vs Leuenberger, Hawksley, Sheldon

Overall we've suffered for a couple of reasons:
- We haven't finished low enough to get picks in the top handful except for Leuenberger.
- Our drafting has been atrocious prior to 2008.

Neither of these had anything to do with Voss.

We're going to be suffering for a couple of more years, basically until the 2008 draft class get towards the 100 game club. We're going to be playing a lot of kids for the next two or three years and unfortunately hoping and wishing and praying is going to do sweet **** all to change that.

If Voss can manage to get our kids playing to his game plan and can show that his game plan is worth playing to, that's good. To date, I honestly don't think the first has been true, so the latter hasn't been forthcoming. If Voss can't get them playing to his game plan and refuses to change it, then we probably do need a new coach to bring through the youngsters.

However every club has had their own circumstances in the last ten years. Just because we appeared to be in a relatively similar place ten years ago doesn't mean we've followed the same paths since. A simplistic argument might sound nice, but funnily enough there rarely seems to be enough meat behind it to hold it together once it's actually looked at closely enough.

 

[Grimreepah]

I cant stand Richmond supporters as much as anyone, but you know what, they might be feral, but you never see them clap their team off the ground after a 13 goal flogging. Supporters shouldnt be happy with that result, no matter how much of a twist people try put on it, clapping those players off after losing like that makes me sick. We've had 6 years to re- build a team, there's no more excuses.

[/b]i'm with you '44. as much as i hate collingwood they were our opponents in two of the three priemierships, nearly ten years and their still in the top three best in the comp. there supporters haven't had to accept mediocrity under the guise of rebuilding. clapping a team of for encouragement is one thing, but it also sends the message that we are excepting sub-standard performances because we are rebuilding, 2010 & those trade duds set us back years in our rebuilding

Who are these people happy with 13 goal defeats?

Being patient, or understanding the need to be patient, doesn't mean one is happy to lose by big margins.

 

[chopperduck]

Good post dlanod. People keep bringing up collingwood saying they can do it why can't we and I think you covered it pretty well. We have to accept we haven't done a 'rebuild' since starting this year, collingwood started theirs ling ago, under the same coach. They have a nice spread of players as they have drafted well since 03 as well. Our list management and recruiting up to very recently has been complete rubbish, so we might as well just leave 04 - 08 as being stagnate nothing years. We can't expect to be pushing back up the ladder now when we haven't really been working towards it.

 

[acuguy]

Our club lacks confidence and direction. Merrett gives us both at the moment. Maguire also could provide that as well. Obviously Browny is missing and it affects this dramatically. The Berger is the other one who could really start to assert himself. Then we might see the midfield group gain some level pegging.

Our big blokes need to stand up.

Mitch Clark is Vossy's biggest problem at the moment. The MCG should suit him as a mobile CHF! Ricciuto got it right when he said Mitch's workrate was not acceptable and he needs to present up at the ball.

 

[Lace Out]

No love for Joyce Brown ?

 

[Lehmo87]

We really have only just entered our first year of rebuilding and patience is going to be a necessity for all supporters who go to games regularly. It's the reason why I wasn't upset on Sunday, it will probably help this week should we lose and it's the only reason why I'll retain my sanity for 2011.

Someone made the comment earlier that we have been rebuilding since 2005 - this is a fallacy. We finished mid-table for a few years and never really got the benefit of low draft picks, which is probably the price we paid for our pride in not wanting to finish low on the ladder. People have been lavishing Sydney with praise this week but I would not be surprised at all if they follow the same path we did in the coming years because they're not going to be a real premiership threat, in my opinion, but they won't finish on bottom of the ladder for some time yet.

Last year, one could say, was a year where we rolled the dice with a final swing at the GF -- needless to say, history tells that horrific story. As a result of that failure we've come to the realisation, as a club, it's now about the kids. We finished low enough to get good draft picks and will probably do so again this year. We have the GC17 pick that we activated this year and we'll still get at least a decent pick this year despite GWS.

Now's not the time to be short sighted. Yes, we expect to win going into every game but losing is not the end of the world for us and we will get flogged from time to time -- that's life when you're playing a bunch of kids in the big league.

 

[Dylan12]

As a result of that failure we've come to the realisation, as a club, it's now about the kids. We finished low enough to get good draft picks and will probably do so again this year. We have the GC17 pick that we activated this year and we'll still get at least a decent pick this year despite GWS.

All well and good Lehmo, but we risked way too much at the end of 2009 and should have been more conservative and hung onto Hendo, pick 12 etc. Considering we knew that Gold Coast and GWS were entering the picture and a number of compromised drafts were upcoming, not to mention they were also able to pre-list a host of 17 year olds, we couldn't have picked a worse time in the game's history to be relying on compromised drafts to improve our situation.

Don't get me wrong, I am genuinely excited about the kids we have got and do not have unreasonable expectations and nor did I expect the club to finish any higher than bottom four at season's beginning, but Voss rolled the dice, lost, and set the club back over 5 years. I accept he and the club have acknowledged their mistake, but I am still of the belief that Voss is out of his depth and I don't really have that much faith in a number of assistants either.

I still think the club should target a more experienced coach with runs on the board. Regardless, it is way too premature to extend Voss' coach until at least the end of the year and at a minimum, he needs to demonstrate consistently that the team can perform like they did against Freo rather than the Dogs. How could we honestly reappoint Voss if we have another half dozen games like we did on Sunday?

 

[Lehmo87]

To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if we shared similar views on Voss and his appointment as coach as well as certain recruits at the end of 2011 but now's not the time to be crying over spilt milk. Voss took a huge risk and got burnt badly... there's no grand revelation in that statement. All I am saying is that I'm now looking at what he does to bring this club forward -- it would have to be a disastrous year for it to bring Voss down and I think it's too early to tell if that will be the case, even after Sunday's result.

 

[Mayestro]

All well and good Lehmo, but we risked way too much at the end of 2009 and should have been more conservative and hung onto Hendo, pick 12 etc. Considering we knew that Gold Coast and GWS were entering the picture and a number of compromised drafts were upcoming, not to mention they were also able to pre-list a host of 17 year olds, we couldn't have picked a worse time in the game's history to be relying on compromised drafts to improve our situation.

I remember speculation at the time was to top up our list in order to (a) have one last crack at the flag and (b) to enable us to be competitive in 2011 and 2012, after which Brown, Black, Power and Fev would retire and we would bottom out after the compromised drafts.

The thought process was fine, it's the execution that was flawed.

This year unfortunately we will have to take our lumps as almost every other club has over the last decade as Lehmo mentioned, be satisfied with the progression of our kids and keep the 2001 to 2003 GF series on heavy rotation.

As far as I'm concerned I trust our new board to adequately assess Voss' performance and vision (who are really the only ones privy to his game plan, as opposed to us on BF) and make the correct decision about the length of his tenure (which I hope is to extend his contract for a further year).

 

[dlanod]

Good post dlanod. People keep bringing up collingwood saying they can do it why can't we and I think you covered it pretty well. We have to accept we haven't done a 'rebuild' since starting this year, collingwood started theirs ling ago, under the same coach. They have a nice spread of players as they have drafted well since 03 as well. Our list management and recruiting up to very recently has been complete rubbish, so we might as well just leave 04 - 08 as being stagnate nothing years. We can't expect to be pushing back up the ladder now when we haven't really been working towards it.

That's the thing that really shits me about the current AFL system. You really need to bottom out for a year or two to get the genuine quality that can lift you to finals - the Pendleburys, Franklins, Murphys, Judds, etc, or get lucky with a couple of father/sons (Cousins, Ablett). Even our GF runs were built off the back of the zone concessions (Voss, Akermanis). The only exception in recent memory may be Sydney, but reading an article Roos wrote about the process Sydney goes through in its trading I have to give Roos a lot of the credit for that.

I was hopeful that after our years of middling results (11th, 13th, 10th, 10th, 6th, 13th) that we'd come out a stronger team but it really looks like that because we didn't have those top 5 picks we are still in for some long term pain.

 

[chopperduck]

What is really hurting us dlanod is our drafting of those years from bout 02 or 03 up to 08. We did finish a bit lower and we did get numerous top 10 picks, but we have very very little to show for our drafting in that period. The problem is, we should now be having the players from that period be leading the way, and we don't. There is a big whole still from Black Power Brown down to the 08 draft, with only basically Bergs and Clark to show for that entire period. Our only other good players have been rookie or zone type selections such as Merrett and Drummo. The only other couple of promising ones we did manage to get, have all departed to the GC, and we may yet lose more to GWS, which brings me to my next point.

I do get a bit sick of people still complaining about the trading and the setting us back 5 years thing. IMO, our previous list manager combined with the impact GC has had on us with both players AND staff have set us back 5 years. At the time we were looking like we could be on the verge of maybe 1 last shot at a flag, and i don't think the trading was a bad idea. In the end it hasn't come off, and i like how the club has quickly seen that and moved straight on to what needs to be done. Out of all the trades we did, the only real big loss is now paying Fev's salary, and that is going to make life a bit difficult for the next few years. We gave up bugger all in our trades for other players, and the Hendo and pick 12 themself certainly wouldn't change anything about our team this year.

 

[LIONHART]

all of the above makes it even more imperative that we hang on to rich and leuy (who are coming out of contract) at all costs.

we need to do all within our power to keep them, if as everyone is rightly saying they are to be the nucleus of any future 'power' team. to lose them at this cruical stage would set us back again.

 

[BuntonRules]

Good post dlanod. People keep bringing up collingwood saying they can do it why can't we and I think you covered it pretty well. We have to accept we haven't done a 'rebuild' since starting this year, collingwood started theirs ling ago, under the same coach. They have a nice spread of players as they have drafted well since 03 as well. Our list management and recruiting up to very recently has been complete rubbish, so we might as well just leave 04 - 08 as being stagnate nothing years. We can't expect to be pushing back up the ladder now when we haven't really been working towards it.

Methinx Collingwood's wealth is beginning to have an effect also. Having the dosh to identify the right talent (Lachlan Keefe for example , rookie list successes etc), to develop them to their full potential plus the best/medical support teams. Throw in state of the art gym facilities & preseason (Arizona) routines and it is no wonder they are getting the best out of their 'cattle'. Is scary to the rest of the competition, not just us.

Well agree with choppers though, especially when you factor in the whole Fev debacle & generally inept club managment. The whole sad saga since 2004 is coming home to roost & to lay it all at Vossy's feet is a fairly simplistic assessment, IMO.

I think he still has a lot to learn but I doubt if anyone else would do much better over the next few years. IMO, Hadleys decisions are going to be more important in the long term.

edit: another factor, to me has been the absolute class & loyalty of Brown & Black. Every year we win games we should not on the back of these 2 champions - so we have not totally bottomed out to get the cream draft picks. Would you rather have not had these 2 for the last few years, so we have a better crop of kids now? Not me.

 

[Football Pope]

Methinx Collingwood's wealth is beginning to have an effect also. Having the dosh to identify the right talent (Lachlan Keefe for example , rookie list successes etc), to develop them to their full potential plus the best/medical support teams. Throw in state of the art gym facilities & preseason (Arizona) routines and it is no wonder they are getting the best out of their 'cattle'. Is scary to the rest of the competition, not just us.

Well agree with choppers though, especially when you factor in the whole Fev debacle & generally inept club managment. The whole sad saga since 2004 is coming home to roost & to lay it all at Vossy's feet is a fairly simplistic assessment, IMO.

I think he still has a lot to learn but I doubt if anyone else would do much better over the next few years. IMO, Hadleys decisions are going to be more important in the long term.

edit: another factor, to me has been the absolute class & loyalty of Brown & Black. Every year we win games we should not on the back of these 2 champions - so we have not totally bottomed out to get the cream draft picks. Would you rather have not had these 2 for the last few years, so we have a better crop of kids now? Not me.

Yep...and the ability to get players to take big pay cuts.. who by sheer luck just happen to be seasoned media performers...like here