Mega Thread Nick Daicos - Can he be the GOAT? Part 2

[sr36]

Steele is a little scaredy cat.

Are you Vossy? Stuff blokes who can kick and run. Lets play a hard at it straight line bruiser in every position on the ground.

 

[Fadge]

Right now for Daicos

Disposals - 18th
Effective disposals - 24th
Handballs - 24th
Kicks - 28th
Inside 50's - 9th
Centre Clearances - 66th
Stoppage Clearances - 9th
Goals - 185th
Goal assists - 75th
Score Involvements - 40th
Metres Gained - 42nd

So he is having an okay season but nothing to write home about so far. That could obviously change though since the season has only just started.

You should have done it after Opening Round, when his rankings would have been even worse given he basically missed most of the second half of the game.

Are you envious?

 

[sr36]

Right now for Daicos

Disposals - 18th
Effective disposals - 24th
Handballs - 24th
Kicks - 28th
Inside 50's - 9th
Centre Clearances - 66th
Stoppage Clearances - 9th
Goals - 185th
Goal assists - 75th
Score Involvements - 40th
Metres Gained - 42nd

So he is having an okay season but nothing to write home about so far. That could obviously change though since the season has only just started.

He's building. His averages will all rise. Cramping up and doing nothing in one of your 6 halfs isn't great for anything, including your averages.

 

[beerbandit]

He's building. His averages will all rise. Cramping up and doing nothing in one of your 6 halfs isn't great for anything, including your averages.

I was thinking the same thing when he gave out averages

Pretty much missed a half in OR.

 

[sr36]

You should have done it after Opening Round, when his rankings would have been even worse given he basically missed most of the second half of the game.

Are you envious?

Might ask him to recalculate averages and rankings based on Nick playing 2 and a half games rather than 3. I'm sure he'll be happy to oblige.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

How are Carlton so bad when they have so many really good players?

How were the Pies so bad last year with so many stars on every line?

 

[sr36]

How were the Pies so bad last year with so many stars on every line?

Heaps of them spent too long in the rehab line rather than football line.

 

[sr36]

I asked Chatgpt. They know their footy:

Yes, Nick Daicos absolutely can become the greatest of all time—but it’s not guaranteed.

He has the skills, footy IQ, and work ethic to be one of the best ever. At just 21, he's already an elite midfielder, and if he continues on this trajectory, he could surpass legends like Ablett Jr., Dusty, and even Leigh Matthews.

What Needs to Happen for GOAT Status?​

Sustained Dominance (10+ Years) – If he keeps this level up (or improves) for a decade, he’s in the conversation.
Multiple Brownlows – At least 2-3 would put him among the greats.
Premiership Glory – If he leads Collingwood to multiple flags & wins a Norm Smith, it solidifies his legacy.
Evolution of His Game – If he adds more goal-scoring & becomes an all-round player (inside & outside), he'll be unstoppable.
Avoiding Injuries & Burnout – This is the biggest threat to his GOAT campaign.

Right now, he’s on track. If everything goes right, he could be the GOAT.

 

[Fadge]

I asked Chatgpt. They know their footy:

Yes, Nick Daicos absolutely can become the greatest of all time—but it’s not guaranteed.

He has the skills, footy IQ, and work ethic to be one of the best ever. At just 21, he's already an elite midfielder, and if he continues on this trajectory, he could surpass legends like Ablett Jr., Dusty, and even Leigh Matthews.

What Needs to Happen for GOAT Status?​

Sustained Dominance (10+ Years) – If he keeps this level up (or improves) for a decade, he’s in the conversation.
Multiple Brownlows – At least 2-3 would put him among the greats.
Premiership Glory – If he leads Collingwood to multiple flags & wins a Norm Smith, it solidifies his legacy.
Evolution of His Game – If he adds more goal-scoring & becomes an all-round player (inside & outside), he'll be unstoppable.
Avoiding Injuries & Burnout – This is the biggest threat to his GOAT campaign.

Right now, he’s on track. If everything goes right, he could be the GOAT.

So nothing about contested marks?

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

I asked Chatgpt. They know their footy

U need a hobby

 

[SC_Power]

Right now for Daicos

Disposals - 18th
Effective disposals - 24th
Handballs - 24th
Kicks - 28th
Inside 50's - 9th
Centre Clearances - 66th
Stoppage Clearances - 9th
Goals - 185th
Goal assists - 75th
Score Involvements - 40th
Metres Gained - 42nd

So he is having an okay season but nothing to write home about so far. That could obviously change though since the season has only just started.

Forgot Brownlow votes: 9 (tied first with Cripps)

 

[sr36]

U need a hobby

Out of curiosity is your avatar pic paying homage to Carlton's most noteworthy day of glory of the last 30 years - the day your team wore baby blue M&M jumpers?

 

[Mr Meow]

They're good numbers, but lots of his peers were higher and significantly better at getting first possession. Gaz's style around stoppage wasn't first touch. He played it like Dane Swan. Sit back a bit circle the contest and look to pounce on a ball that bobbles out or an opportunity to receive - with the power to break through when he got the ball.

Gaz's highest number of clearances in a year was 40 short - 25% less - than the number Nick got in his first year as an inside mid - before he's got the body for the role.

Daicos in 2024 won 20.6% of his sides clearances. Ablett in 2012 won 21.2% of his sides clearances. Yes they were different ages but it's a bit odd to say GAJ lacked in first touch possesions in his sides. He was a perfect blend of inside/outside play (as opposed to mostly inside like some of the players you may be referring to). He didn't have a Rowell feeding him at the Suns.

In that 2012 season, which was not in Ablett's best 2 GC seasons, he was involved in 34.8% of his sides (a comfortably higher proportion than Daicos 2024) scores while adding 45 goals/assists to Daicos' 38 . All in a truly terrible team (think West Coast 2023 areas). Daicos still doesn't have the consistent hurt factor Ablett did with disposal. Of course he has time to achieve that but his ball use seemed as good, if not better 2022-2023 as it has been the latter half of 2024 to now.

 

[sr36]

Daicos in 2024 won 20.6% of his sides clearances. Ablett in 2012 won 21.2% of his sides clearances. Yes they were different ages but it's a bit odd to say GAJ lacked in first touch possesions in his sides. He was a perfect blend of inside/outside play (as opposed to mostly inside like some of the players you may be referring to). He didn't have a Rowell feeding him at the Suns.

In that 2012 season, which was not in Ablett's best 2 GC seasons, he was involved in 34.8% of his sides (a comfortably higher proportion than Daicos 2024) scores while adding 45 goals/assists to Daicos' 38 . All in a truly terrible team (think West Coast 2023 areas). Daicos still doesn't have the consistent hurt factor Ablett did with disposal. Of course he has time to achieve that but his ball use seemed as good, if not better 2022-2023 as it has been the latter half of 2024 to now.

Ablett was incredible. I watched him closely. He played stoppage the same way as Dane Swan and they were both brilliant at getting the ball - but it wasn't generally at the ball drop. Unlike Swanny, Ablett was then brilliant at using the ball. They set up to pounce and break and continue to track the footy, whereas the first possession guys were usually stoppage to stoppage guys, so they didn't have that mix of inside/outside that you're talking about.

Nick's ball use isn't yet close to as good as GAz's in traffic. It's dropped, as a big percentage of his game last year was on the inside whereas the years before he was an outside receiver who got it a lot in space and he isn't yet strong enough to stand up in a tackle and thus just dumps it forward too often under pressure - but there's been enough to suggest Diesel type vision to make me pretty confident it will be outstanding once he gets strong enough for his current role. I think we'll be looking at someone truly unique once Nick is physically developed. Because as you pointed out, the first possession elite clearance winning players aren't usually anything like Nick at all on the outside.

Fair enough that you disagree.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Ablett's dad was better, he could actually fly

On SM-A225F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Mr Meow]

Ablett was incredible. I watched him closely. He played stoppage the same way as Dane Swan and they were both brilliant at getting the ball - but it wasn't generally at the ball drop. They set up to pounce and break and continue to track the footy, whereas the first possession guys were usually stoppage to stoppage guys, so they didn't have that mix of inside/outside that you're talking about.

Nick's ball use isn't yet close to as good as GAz's in traffic. It's dropped, as a big percentage of his game last year was on the inside whereas the years before he was an outside receiver who got it a lot in space and he isn't yet strong enough to stand up in a tackle and thus just dumps it forward too often under pressure - but there's been enough to suggest Diesel type vision to make me pretty confident it will be outstanding once he gets strong enough for his current role. I think we'll be looking at someone truly unique once Nick is physically developed. Because as you pointed out, the first possession elite clearance winning players aren't usually anything like Nick at all on the outside.

Fair enough that you disagree.

I don't think Ablett's contested to uncontested possession ratio, clearance or hard ball get to disposal ratio indicated that he was anything other than a perfect inside/outside midfielder at stoppages. I.e an all rounder.

Where he racked up the extra receiver possessions was his gut running around the ground. Even more so at Gold Coast because they basically had no other decent ball users.

He also did rotate to a forward flank a bit. Not to Dusty levels, but something closer to Bartel. Either way, he never fell short when it came to winning the ball in dispute or tough 1v1s - in the air or on the ground. Your classification of his play is misguided, sorry to say. You get a slice of it right but then miss the mark on the rest. In my opinion of course.

As far as Daicos ball use since moving inside, I basically do agree with you. So far his truly elite ball use by foot has more so been as that outside player - a role closer to half backs and wingmen. As an inside midfielder he's a bit up and down in the face of increased pressure. Still very good, but not consistently shredding teams and breaking the game open from 50/50s. Ablett did do that. A lot.

 

[RCAB]

I asked Chatgpt. They know their footy:

Yes, Nick Daicos absolutely can become the greatest of all time—but it’s not guaranteed.

He has the skills, footy IQ, and work ethic to be one of the best ever. At just 21, he's already an elite midfielder, and if he continues on this trajectory, he could surpass legends like Ablett Jr., Dusty, and even Leigh Matthews.

What Needs to Happen for GOAT Status?​

Sustained Dominance (10+ Years) – If he keeps this level up (or improves) for a decade, he’s in the conversation.
Multiple Brownlows – At least 2-3 would put him among the greats.
Premiership Glory – If he leads Collingwood to multiple flags & wins a Norm Smith, it solidifies his legacy.
Evolution of His Game – If he adds more goal-scoring & becomes an all-round player (inside & outside), he'll be unstoppable.
Avoiding Injuries & Burnout – This is the biggest threat to his GOAT campaign.

Right now, he’s on track. If everything goes right, he could be the GOAT.

Chat GPT smarter than many Carlton supporters:

People say "Daicos can't be the GOAT, no contested marks!", but then praise Judd as elite when:

He barely took contested marks himself,

Was rarely dominant overhead,

Yet still gets lionized for his burst speed, clearance work, and flair.


Meanwhile:

Hodge took contested marks, shut down space, led defensive zones, impacted finals, and captained a four-flag dynasty — but often gets dismissed as “less spectacular.”


So yes, you're exposing a double standard in how fans judge players:

They criticise Daicos for not being like Carey, but then celebrate Judd for not being like Carey either.

And ironically — Daicos is already doing more game-shaping damage than Judd did at the same age, even without contested marking.


---

Here's the logical bottom line:

Contested marking is a tool, not a measure of greatness in itself.

Judd didn’t need it to be elite — and neither does Daicos.

You don't criticize a surgeon for not being a bodybuilder — you judge them by what they do better than anyone else.

Daicos controls time, territory, movement, and possession better than almost anyone already — just like Hodge controlled shape, zone, and finals tempo.


If Judd is allowed to be considered elite without contested marks, then Daicos absolutely can be GOAT conversation too — and Hodge should already be ranked higher than Judd.



Want a breakdown of elite players sorted by legacy impact vs highlight perception next?

 

[Worm4]

So nothing about contested marks?

Yes, it's called evolution, as listed

 

[sr36]

I don't think Ablett's contested to uncontested possession ratio, clearance or hard ball get to disposal ratio indicated that he was anything other than a perfect inside/outside midfielder at stoppages. I.e an all rounder.

Where he racked up the extra receiver possessions was his gut running around the ground. Even more so at Gold Coast because they basically had no other decent ball users.

He also did rotate to a forward flank a bit. Not to Dusty levels, but something closer to Bartel. Either way, he never fell short when it came to winning the ball in dispute or tough 1v1s - in the air or on the ground. Your classification of his play is misguided, sorry to say. You get a slice of it right but then miss the mark on the rest. In my opinion of course.

As far as Daicos ball use since moving inside, I basically do agree with you. So far his truly elite ball use by foot has more so been as that outside player - a role closer to half backs and wingmen. As an inside midfielder he's a bit up and down in the face of increased pressure. Still very good, but not consistently shredding teams and breaking the game open from 50/50s. Ablett did do that. A lot.

I think you're missing what I mean. I'm certainly not saying that Gaz was just a receiver. He was a fantastic contest player. I'm saying that they didn't set up for him to be at the ball drop to get first hands on it, neither did Collingwood with Swan - they were set up to burst from congestion. In our best years of the period, Luke Ball was setting up to be first touch for us and Swan would be on the move tracking the footy and if the ball bobbled in his direction he'd pounce and he had a similar power through the hips to Gaz who did the same thing - when it bobbled out it'd be a contested possession often won through strength with the power to then burst clear. However, they were also in position to get separation and receive if the first touch guy did get it and was able to get a handball away. They were set up to burst from stoppage with the footy, which has the added advantage of making it easier to continue to track the footy.

What I haven't mentioned about Nick's clearances numbers last year is that he only started playing predominately a first possession role in round 9 after Mitchell's foot injury caught up with him - he had 140 clearnces in those 16 games in the role. In his 3rd, 4th and 5th game in the role - he had a combined 40 clearances - many of them clean breaks to deep entries and thus he was hard tagged around stoppage from then on, because you have to.

I don't think he'll play that role as often this year, with Jordy back I think we'll use Nick's tag to get advantageous positioning quite a lot, but it'll be his long term role, because his movement in traffic is amazing and no one gets to the ball as quickly as Nick Daicos and it doesn't stop him from then getting out tracking the footy and receiving.

 

[Mr Meow]

I think you're missing what I mean. I'm certainly not saying that Gaz was just a receiver. He was a fantastic contest player. I'm saying that they didn't set up for him to be at the ball drop to get first hands on it, neither did Collingwood with Swan - in our best years of the period, Luke Ball was doing that for us and Swan would be on the move tracking the footy and if the ball bobbled in his direction he'd pounce and he had a similar power through the hips to Gaz who did the same thing - when it bobbled out it'd be a contested possession often won through strength with the power to then burst clear. However, they were also in position to get separation and receive if the first touch guy did get it and was able to get a handball away. They were set up to burst from stoppage with the footy, which has the added advantage of making it easier to continue to track the footy.

What I haven't mentioned about Nick's clearances numbers last year is that he only started playing predominately a first possession role in round 9 after Mitchell's foot injury caught up with him - he had 140 clearnces in those 16 games in the role. In his 3rd, 4th and 5th game in the role - he had a combined 40 clearances - many of them clean breaks to deep entries and thus he was hard tagged around stoppage from then on.

I don't think he'll play that role as often this year, but it'll be his long term role, because his movement in traffic is amazing and no one gets to the ball as quickly as Nick Daicos.

But like I showed, Ablett in 2012 was getting slightly higher proportion of his sides clearances than Daicos has since he moved to midfield. So are you saying the same for Nick, but expect it to change as his body matures?

Ablett had 7 seasons in a row averaging 5.9-7.9 clearances. So he was certainly getting the first touch plenty of times.

I somewhat disagree with your verdict on the effectiveness of Daicos' clearances as far as hurt factor and precision, so far. It's an area where he is good but not unbelievably damaging across whole games. He did escape attention for a while and looked cleaner. Since the heat has gone up his ball use has been up and down. But his accumulation is unbelievably elite and always has been.

 

[Lunchtime]

I asked Chatgpt. They know their footy:

Yes, Nick Daicos absolutely can become the greatest of all time—but it’s not guaranteed.

He has the skills, footy IQ, and work ethic to be one of the best ever. At just 21, he's already an elite midfielder, and if he continues on this trajectory, he could surpass legends like Ablett Jr., Dusty, and even Leigh Matthews.

What Needs to Happen for GOAT Status?​

Sustained Dominance (10+ Years) – If he keeps this level up (or improves) for a decade, he’s in the conversation.
Multiple Brownlows – At least 2-3 would put him among the greats.
Premiership Glory – If he leads Collingwood to multiple flags & wins a Norm Smith, it solidifies his legacy.
Evolution of His Game – If he adds more goal-scoring & becomes an all-round player (inside & outside), he'll be unstoppable.
Avoiding Injuries & Burnout – This is the biggest threat to his GOAT campaign.

Right now, he’s on track. If everything goes right,

Needs to do well in Finals on a consistent basis also. Thats when it truly matters - Finals football.

he could be the GOAT.

 

[sr36]

But like I showed, Ablett in 2012 was getting slightly higher proportion of his sides clearances than Daicos has since he moved to midfield. So are you saying the same for Nick, but expect it to change as his body matures?

Ablett had 7 seasons in a row averaging 5.9-7.9 clearances. So he was certainly getting the first touch plenty of times.

I somewhat disagree with your verdict on the effectiveness of Daicos' clearances as far as hurt factor and precision, so far. It's an area where he is good but not unbelievably damaging across whole games. He did escape attention for a while and looked cleaner. Since the heat has gone up his ball use has been up and down. But his accumulation is unbelievably elite and always has been.

My verdict is that most of his clearances weren't very effective once he copped hard tags at stoppage. Before then we were getting deep entries from them. That's what I'm expecting to be the big improvement when he is physically mature - he'll use it well under physical pressure.

I don't think percentage of teams clearances is as significant as overall clearance numbers. Worpel was getting good numbers when the Hawks were shit, Neale at Freo, etc ...

The clearance is often not the first touch. The stat is for the first link in a chain that clears stoppage. It could be the 4th handball, lots of them turn over, or the first. The chain might be 1 kick. 5 blokes might touch it before anyone actually gets a disposal away, that leads to a clearance of the stoppage, etc ... But yes, everyone who plays stoppage gets the first touch sometimes because the ball drop is only moderately predictable or controllable.

 

[Mr Meow]

My verdict is that most of his clearances weren't very effective once he copped hard tags at stoppage. Before then we were getting deep entries from them. That's what I'm expecting to be the big improvement when he is physically mature - he'll use it well under physical pressure.

I don't think percentage of teams clearances is as significant as overall clearance numbers. Worpel was getting good numbers when the Hawks were shit, Neale at Freo, etc ...

The clearance is often not the first touch. The stat is for the first link in a chain that clears stoppage. It could be the 4th handball, lots of them turn over, or the first. The chain might be 1 kick. 5 blokes might touch it before anyone actually gets a disposal away, that leads to a clearance of the stoppage, etc ... But yes, everyone who plays stoppage gets the first touch sometimes because the ball drop is only moderately predictable or controllable.

For whatever reason your opinion on Ablett's role and impact at stoppages (from a first touch perspective) differs to mine and the consensus, which is fine. I have his whole career imprinted in my brain and his burst from stoppages came from every single source possible. You seem to have a blinkered view of one aspect of his play. Anyway, we're getting off track.

 

[Lunchtime]

For whatever reason your opinion on Ablett's role and impact at stoppages (from a first touch perspective) differs to mine and the consensus, which is fine. I have his whole career imprinted in my brain and his burst from stoppages came from every single source possible. You seem to have a blinkered view of one aspect of his play. Anyway, we're getting off track.

Not all the time but on many many occasions Ablett would burst away from packs at stoppages after receiving the ball from the in-and-under player. Sometimes if within range he'd also run on and have a shot at goal too.

 

[Mr Meow]

Not all the time but on many many occasions Ablett would burst away from packs at stoppages after receiving the ball from the in-and-under player. Sometimes if within range he'd also run on and have a shot at goal too.

Exactly, some of the time. There were also plenty of times where the ruck tap, ground ball or hard ball was won in 1v1s at stoppages and he burst directly. Really this is how all the champion inside/outside midfielders have been.