Opinion Non-Crows AFL 11

[Scorpus]

Am I following this correctly?

Geelong making four consecutive top four positions with a premiership demonstrates that they wouldn't have won one without Scott who is a great coach.

Melbourne making three consecutive top four positions with a premiership demonstrates they had a 'can't miss' list and carried the coach?

Both are comments on their results relative to the quality of their list.

You might disagree but I think Melbourne had a better list than Geelong, yet Geelong's record (grand finals, flags, finals wins, top 4 finishes) is better.

Both clubs had a combination of players and coaches that put themselves in a position to have the best chance of winning a flag. But if you swapped the coaches I think Melbourne would have a dynasty and Geelong would have no success.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

Maybe he's less annoying to the casual viewer? If you heard him once or twice a year he probably sounds quite good, as a play by play he's actually very good and knowledgeable. It's just once you hear him for the 10th time you realise that every single call of his is the same with the exact same cliches. He's like a demo version of Dennis Commetti that no one ever paid to unlock the rest of.

I like this description of Dwayne and think it should be published or written on his tombstone.

 

[Cromulant]

He'd be the most criticised of this group by a trillion percent

Dunno.... Bevo cops it a huge amount, and they don't have anywhere near the controversy that Melbourne have had over the last 2 years.

Not sure why this is a hill you're keen to die on

 

[Southerntakeover]

Both are comments on their results relative to the quality of their list.

You might disagree but I think Melbourne had a better list than Geelong, yet Geelong's record (grand finals, flags, finals wins, top 4 finishes) is better.

Both clubs had a combination of players and coaches that put themselves in a position to have the best chance of winning a flag. But if you swapped the coaches I think Melbourne would have a dynasty and Geelong would have no success.

Which is just a repetition of your starting position, so be it.

What you can't do is offer particular facts as evidence of a coaches inability, and then say that they're not evidence of inability in another coach who also shares them.

 

[Southerntakeover]

I'm also not buying the idea that the Geelong team that had the Hawkins / Cameron duo up forward was a team of honest battlers elevated by their coach.

Geelong have stayed up because they've continuously brought in top tier league elites when they were dropping off.

 

[Slime Roy]

Or we can understand that the amount of criticism Goodwin cops comically outweighs the levels of criticism of other coaches who have won and achieved less

Speaking of comically & cops,
Didn't Gil have to assemble a "black ops" team from AFL house to tail & report to city hall, specifically on the conduct & behaviors of Goodwin?

Team Becomes The Coach. Fish Rots From The Head. Buck Stops Here etc,etc

 

[Scorpus]

I'm also not buying the idea that the Geelong team that had the Hawkins / Cameron duo up forward was a team of honest battlers elevated by their coach.

Geelong have stayed up because they've continuously brought in top tier league elites when they were dropping off.

Post-flag, Scott was able to win a final with a midfield of a 34 year old Dangerfield, Max Holmes, Tom Atkins and Tanner Bruhn and without Hawkins up forward.

Post-flag Goodwin couldn't win a final with a midfield of Petracca, Oliver, Viney and Gawn

 

[Southerntakeover]

Post-flag, Scott was able to win a final with a midfield of a 34 year old Dangerfield, Max Holmes, Tom Atkins and Tanner Bruhn and without Hawkins up forward.

Post-flag Goodwin couldn't win a final with a midfield of Petracca, Oliver, Viney and Gawn

Now compare the forward lines.

 

[Scorpus]

Now compare the forward lines.

I mean Geelong won with Cameron, Stengle, Miers, Mannagh, Neale and Henry. Hardly amazing outside of Cameron and Stengle

Melbourne had Fritsch, Pickett, Neal-Bullen, Melksham, Brown and Spargo

It's worse for sure. But the difference in midfields is much more significant

 

[Southerntakeover]

I mean Geelong won with Cameron, Stengle, Miers, Mannagh, Neale and Henry. Hardly amazing outside of Cameron and Stengle

Melbourne had Fritsch, Pickett, Neal-Bullen, Melksham, Brown and Spargo

It's worse for sure. But the difference in midfields is much more significant

Outside of arguably the best player in the AFL?

You're being deliberately disingenuous and I think you know it.

 

[Scorpus]

Outside of arguably the best player in the AFL?

You're being deliberately disingenuous and I think you know it.

Nope. I don't think Jeremy Cameron offsets Geelong's poor midfield.

I think anyone claiming Geelong's 2024 finals winning team is better than (or equivalent to) Melbourne's 2022-2023 finals losing team, in player quality, is being disingenuous.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Nope. I don't think Jeremy Cameron offsets Geelong's poor midfield.

I think anyone claiming Geelong's 2024 finals winning team is better than (or equivalent to) Melbourne's 2022-2023 finals losing team, in player quality, is being disingenuous.

Your evidence of that being that one team made top four for three years and is obviously therefore excellent, not like the team that made top four for four consecutive seasons.

Come on, you're just cherry picking 'evidence' to support your preconceived conclusions. It has to be obvious to you that you're doing this by now.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

I'm also not buying the idea that the Geelong team that had the Hawkins / Cameron duo up forward was a team of honest battlers elevated by their coach.

Geelong have stayed up because they've continuously brought in top tier league elites when they were dropping off.

Chris Scott has proven he can continually make finals & has replenished the list. Sure has had advantage of bringing in quality players from other clubs, but also developed plenty of no names. I can't recall there being any major issues destabilising the playing group.

Can't take premiership away from Goodwin, but they have fallen quite quickly from being the dominant team to now one where key players want out I'm not sure is tenable he can stay but happy to be proven wrong. Don't believe Goodwin has the longevity in him like C Scott.

 

[Scorpus]

Your evidence of that being that one team made top four for three years and is obviously therefore excellent, not like the team that made top four for four consecutive seasons.

Come on, you're just cherry picking 'evidence' to support your preconceived conclusions. It has to be obvious to you that you're doing this by now.

Actual results are a combination of player and coaching quality.

You are saying that because two teams have similar results their players and coaches must be similar. And providing no evidence that's the case.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Actual results are a combination of player and coaching quality.

You are saying that because two teams have similar results their players and coaches must be similar. And providing no evidence that's the case.

You were the one who argued that a conclusion on a coaches quality followed from the lists top four finishes.

Indignantly telling me that there's no evidence that supports drawing a conclusion when I ask you to consistently apply that logic is funny, but shows how bad faith you're operating.

 

[AFC979810]

Where would you rate him amongst the single flag winners in the afl era?
Beverage
simpson
Worstfold
Roos
McRae
Longmire
Williams

Tough at this stage because he is still going. Has a better winning % than all of em except McRae.

But this talk about Melbourne's team being so damn good is fanciful. It was a very good side (as all premiership sides are), but I am not sure why people are acting like Goodwin had a dynasty on his hands. That Melbourne team of 2021 wouldn't get close to the Richmond, Hawthorn or Brisbane dynasty teams.

 

[Scorpus]

You were the one who argued that a conclusion on a coaches quality followed from the lists top four finishes.

Indignantly telling me that there's no evidence that supports drawing a conclusion when I ask you to consistently apply that logic is funny, but shows how bad faith you're operating.

I did not argue that a "conclusion" could be drawn from top 4 finishes.

I said it was a contributing factor that weighs in favour of Goodwin. In addition to other factors against him, like failing in finals.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

So all those singing Goodwin's praises, do you think he will be coaching the Dees in 2026 & he can fix the disharmony next season to play finals?

 

[Southerntakeover]

I did not argue that a "conclusion" could be drawn from top 4 finishes.

I said it was a contributing factor that weighs in favour of Goodwin. In addition to other factors against him, like failing in finals.

If you now want to say that you weren't saying that, that's fine, but when I put to you that you were drawing the differing conclusions from the same evidence, you doubled down:

Am I following this correctly?

Geelong making four consecutive top four positions with a premiership demonstrates that they wouldn't have won one without Scott who is a great coach.

Melbourne making three consecutive top four positions with a premiership demonstrates they had a 'can't miss' list and carried the coach?

Both are comments on their results relative to the quality of their list.

You might disagree but I think Melbourne had a better list than Geelong, yet Geelong's record (grand finals, flags, finals wins, top 4 finishes) is better.

Both clubs had a combination of players and coaches that put themselves in a position to have the best chance of winning a flag. But if you swapped the coaches I think Melbourne would have a dynasty and Geelong would have no success.

 

[AFC979810]

Pretty crazy to think that someone thinks that Melbourne's flag team of 2021 is leaps and bounds ahead of Geelong's side in 2022.

Both had 5 players make the All Australian side in their premiership year.

Geelong was 18 and 4 with a 144.22%.
Melbourne was 17,4,1 with the 3rd best percentage of 130.84.

Both absolutely dominated the Prelim and GF.

Goodwin went top 4 the next two years after winning the GF. Scott missed the finals the year after his flag and then finished top 4 and smashed a woeful Power before losing to the Lions.

So am I right in saying old mate Scorpus thinks the difference between a great coach (Scott) and an okay coach (Goodwin) is that Scott was lucky enough to play the Power who had been hopeless in the finals.

 

[BRL121]

As I said before, something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

If your best 2 All Australian midfielders on long term contracts want out, there are some underlying issues that i doubt can be resolved.

I think this is the main issue with Melbourne. I don't think pure list/coaching quality is as relevant. Let's face it, they are essentially down 3 star midfielders: if you took Rozee, Butters, and JHF out of Port, how would they look?

I also don't think that Petracca and Oliver want to leave because of poor on-field performance. There are mainly off-field and mental issues at play here, none of which are relevant at Geelong.

 

[AFC979810]

So all those singing Goodwin's praises, do you think he will be coaching the Dees in 2026 & he can fix the disharmony next season to play finals?

Well shit - what a loaded question and one with zero relevance to the discussion.

All good coaches eventually suck and get canned (or pushed).

Fact remains he has coached 183 games, has a flag and a winning percentage of 56.8%. That winning percentage is 14th best of all AFL/VFL coaches that have coached over 100 games. Pretty damn impressive

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Well shit - what a loaded question and one with zero relevance to the discussion.

All good coaches eventually suck and get canned (or pushed).

Fact remains he has coached 183 games, has a flag and a winning percentage of 56.8%. That winning percentage is 14th best of all AFL/VFL coaches that have coached over 100 games. Pretty damn impressive

Well you jumped on me for suggesting not all is well at the Dees & next sesson will be Goodwin's last

Yet you are unable to put your balls on the line... because I suspect you know it's likely to be true.

You keep banging on about the past... but I'm more concerned about the future.

 

[AFC979810]

Well you jumped on me for suggesting not all is well at the Dees & next sesson will be Goodwin's last

No - I corrected you that the Dee's demise hasn't been quick.

Yet you are unable to put your balls on the line... because I suspect you know it's likely to be true.

I am not gonna put my balls on the line by saying Goodwin will be there in 2026 because thats a ridiculous thing to do.

Bloke has been at the club 10 years. Thats a long time. If he misses the finals this year then there is every chance he is gone. Thats not a knock on him, but a reality.

You keep banging on about the past... but I'm more concerned about the future.

I keep banging on about a current coaches accomplishments and abilities. Which is very relevant.

This 2025 Demons squad is very very different to the 2021 premiership side.

 

[Scorpus]

Tough at this stage because he is still going. Has a better winning % than all of em except McRae.

But this talk about Melbourne's team being so damn good is fanciful. It was a very good side (as all premiership sides are), but I am not sure why people are acting like Goodwin had a dynasty on his hands. That Melbourne team of 2021 wouldn't get close to the Richmond, Hawthorn or Brisbane dynasty teams.

I don't agree with that in relation to Richmond.

Melbourne's list of All Australian players is as strong as Richmond's and both sides had comparable role players. Each side had strengths in different areas of the ground, and both sides had star players entering their prime.

I think their players in terms of accolades and age was as primed for success as we've seen outside of the actual proven dynasty teams

Pretty crazy to think that someone thinks that Melbourne's flag team of 2021 is leaps and bounds ahead of Geelong's side in 2022.

Both had 5 players make the All Australian side in their premiership year.

Geelong was 18 and 4 with a 144.22%.
Melbourne was 17,4,1 with the 3rd best percentage of 130.84.

Both absolutely dominated the Prelim and GF.

Goodwin went top 4 the next two years after winning the GF. Scott missed the finals the year after his flag and then finished top 4 and smashed a woeful Power before losing to the Lions.

So am I right in saying old mate Scorpus thinks the difference between a great coach (Scott) and an okay coach (Goodwin) is that Scott was lucky enough to play the Power who had been hopeless in the finals.

Melbourne's side post flag has added 6 All Australian jackets (Oliver x1, Gawn x2, Petracca x2, May x1).

Geelong have added 2 All Australian jackets since their flag (Cameron x1, Stewart x1)

I think there's a strong case that Melbourne's side (personnel wise) was primed for more success following their flag than Geelong and yet it's Geelong that have been more successful since (in terms of finals wins).

Melbourne also had the benefit of playing all four of their losing finals at home, one of which was against Carlton, two of which against non-Vic sides. Of course Geelong benefitted playing Port away, but it's not like Melbourne were handed unfavorable matchups