Opinion Non-Crows AFL 6: This Is Getting Cruel

[GROTTO]

Personal testimonials of which they have 3 with similar stories is regarded as evidence by the way.

I think Clarkson and Fagan are gone. The detail of these accounts and the fact that 3 random players contacted have said the same thing is enough to nail the coffin.

True, but are you saying he has told 3 indigenous players the same thing ie leave a partner and for that partner to have an abortion, thats very different issue to three different stories about alleged racism.

 

[1970crow]

This makes terrible reading.

Key points:​

• Hawthorn commissioned a review to look into how First Nations players were treated during Alastair Clarkson's time at the Hawks
• One former player alleges he was urged by coaches to encourage his partner to terminate their pregnancy for the sake of his career
• Other players allege that coaches coerced them to remove SIM cards from their phones and insert new ones to cut them off from their partners

The coaches in question are Clarkson and Fagan. At the bare minimum they should be removed from their positions until a full investigation is complete.

If proven, the only possible result is that these two men are summarily dismissed from their positions.

And if the AFL is serious about racism, they should be put before a civil court.

Finally, while never condoning Tex's actions, this information is a thousand times worse than his misdemeanour.

What if they had provided the exact same advice to non-indigenous players in the same circumstances? People need to consider the context in terms of how a conversation even begins about a young player's partner with senior coaches. I'd be cooling jets until a proper investigation is conducted.

 

[pjcrows]

I think it's like comparing a kick in the shins with a hammer to the shins.

Sure, comparable but vastly different in actual impact.

I think they're all related, which is my point. I think "ranking" them is weird. But that's just my view.

 

[GROTTO]

What will be interesting is just how long will an investigation take?

3 months, 6 months, a year? What is procedural fairness for all parties here? I accept an investigation will be done as quickly as it can be possible but the impact and the findings are going to impact many individuals and Clubs for the rest of their lives.

 

[Geoffa32]

What if they had provided the exact same advice to non-indigenous players in the same circumstances? People need to consider the context in terms of how a conversation even begins about a young player's partner with senior coaches. I'd be cooling jets until a proper investigation is conducted.

If they did, it is still bad and they should be removed from the industry.


Bear in mind they work in an industry where 18 year olds change state to play at these clubs and coaching staff take the role as "parents" in the early years of a career.


Suggesting anyone separate from their family and certainly heavily suggest an abortion for a partner is wrong regardless of race.



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[GROTTO]

Suggesting anyone separate from their family and certainly heavily suggest an abortion for a partner is wrong regardless of race.



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What are your thoughts, if they say they never made that suggestion or if alternatively they told them a list of "suggestions" of pro's and con's and said the decision is theirs to make and never not once told them what they should do?

 

[1970crow]

If they did, it is still bad and they should be removed from the industry.


Bear in mind they work in an industry where 18 year olds change state to play at these clubs and coaching staff take the role as "parents" in the early years of a career.


Suggesting anyone separate from their family and certainly heavily suggest an abortion for a partner is wrong regardless of race.



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Really? You wouldn't suggest a bettered wife separate from her abusive partner? Just grin and bear it love?

 

[CrowsB4hoes]

What if they had provided the exact same advice to non-indigenous players in the same circumstances? People need to consider the context in terms of how a conversation even begins about a young player's partner with senior coaches. I'd be cooling jets until a proper investigation is conducted.

Clubs know their draftees have to grow up quick. They need them to go from 18 year olds to 35+ year olds in maturity asap. They tell all kids that it’s in their best interests to drop any dead beat mates. Most listen. Some don’t and won’t make it. Some don’t but are able to survive like De Goey but don’t make the most of their talents.

I can see that the Hawks had this in mind but completely over stepped some boundaries.

 

[Geoffa32]

What are your thoughts, if they say they never made that suggestion or if alternatively they told them a list of "suggestions" of pro's and con's and said the decision is theirs to make and never not once told them what they should do?

That does change it a bit.


And if corroborated with the accusers that this did happen, you can see Fagan and Clarkson staying in the industry.




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[Geoffa32]

Really? You wouldn't suggest a bettered wife separate from her abusive partner? Just grin and bear it love?

Different situation.


There is no suggestion of DV in this situation.





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[pjcrows]

What if they had provided the exact same advice to non-indigenous players in the same circumstances?

Advice that they should abort their baby to help their career and then encourage them to have no contact with their partner?

I'd say it's still pretty damning.

We don't know the context though. It could've been a broader discussion, meant in one way but received in another.

It's complex. Ultimately, football clubs have historically operated successfully under "Do as I say" regimes. Listen to those in power. Follow their lead. Play your role. There is little room for individuality in Australian football, compared to say the NBA or NFL. We're still behind on cultural sensitivity. We've seen what happens here when you buck the trend.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Anyone know any background on this Russell Jackson character?

Never heard of him.

 

[GROTTO]

That does change it a bit.


And if corroborated with the accusers that this did happen, you can see Fagan and Clarkson staying in the industry.




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Thats my point exactly though.

Fagan and Clarko if guilty will never admit to any wrong doing, if innocent its a horrible situation that will affect them for the rest of their lives, not to mention their families.

Unless there is evidence of the same story from multiple parties and or text messages/emails to provide proof, I cannot see how they will be found guilty even on the basis of probabilities.

I genuinely believe they have the right to natural justice here.

 

[1970crow]

Different situation.


There is no suggestion of DV in this situation.





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Of course their isn't, most of the words you've read are from what would be the potential abusers. The coaches weren't interviewed in this investigation. There's no context provided.

 

[1970crow]

Advice that they should abort their baby to help their career and then encourage them to have no contact with their partner?

I'd say it's still pretty damning.

We don't know the context though. It could've been a broader discussion, meant in one way but received in another.

It's complex. Ultimately, football clubs have historically operated successfully under "Do as I say" regimes. Listen to those in power. Follow their lead. Play your role. There is little room for individuality in Australian football, including cultural sensitivity. We've seen what happens here when you buck the trend.

Damning, but not racist. Agree?

 

[GROTTO]

Advice that they should abort their baby to help their career and then encourage them to have no contact with their partner?

I'd say it's still pretty damning.

We don't know the context though. It could've been a broader discussion, meant in one way but received in another.

What if its only with one player and his partner that Fagan/Clarko that this allegation is made about?

What if they deny it?

Its essentially destroying a person on the basis of one allegation that cannot be proven.

 

[GROTTO]

It's complex. Ultimately, football clubs have historically operated successfully under "Do as I say" regimes. Listen to those in power. Follow their lead. Play your role. There is little room for individuality in Australian football, compared to say the NBA or NFL. We're still behind on cultural sensitivity. We've seen what happens here when you buck the trend.

The caveat to that is that if youre not an elite player. Elite players get lot more leeway compared to the rest of the playing group. I do agree with you in general though, if you buck the trend, youre turfed out.

 

[Amacca 23]

What if its only with one player and his partner that Fagan/Clarko that this allegation is made about?

What if they deny it?

Its essentially destroying a person on the basis of one allegation that cannot be proven.

I hope irrefutable evidence is found one way or the other so its clear cut and if found to be true then all involved are terminated immediately from the game and never to be involved in any position ever again at any level

 

[Geoffa32]

Of course their isn't, most of the words you've read are from what would be the potential abusers. The coaches weren't interviewed in this investigation. There's no context provided.

The only context that could help Fagan and Clarkson out is as GROTTO suggested. The advice given in a balanced way.


There is no context that absolves these guys if they presented the "advice" as described in the article.




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[Disco Fox]

Anyone know any background on this Russell Jackson character?

Never heard of him.

He's a journo who has covered a number of sport-related stories & won a couple of awards as a result.

 

[baldandbroke]

I do think Eddie would say why he THINKS something happened as if it's the clear and only reason it DID happen.

You're probably right that there was a decent layer of mayo on it. I think it occured but you'd have to have some doubts it was 100% exactly as described.

“Mayo”???

Do you mean to say the way Eddie interprets things that happen to him is an exaggeration because it has racist undertones?

Just because it might seem like a little thing to you, that does not mean it is a little thing to him.

Perhaps the reason Eddie sees the pool incident as being about his race … is because that is the truth he had lived his whole life. That generally, when singled out, it comes down to race.

As someone who has worked at pools for way too many years … you would not believe some of the stuff that comes out of peoples mouths for lifeguards to deal with. Can I imagine a situation where a patron points out someone by using their skin colour to identify them? Absolutely. Could I imagine the complaint being based in a lifetime of racist beliefs rather than a fair assessment of the actions/behaviour? Definitely. Could the lifeguard have communicated it in a way that passed on the racist element? For sure.

Maybe we can resist the urge to whitewash statements by people that experience racism everyday? I’m sure most in here find racism abhorrent, let’s not fall into the mistake of applying our skewed view over the top of someone else under the guise of “being fair to all sides”.

 

[pjcrows]

Damning, but not racist. Agree?

Well in this case it's three First Nations people and no one else. So yes, it is.

 

[pjcrows]

Eddie's story is entirely believable, particularly if the pool he is referring to isn't your average public pool but one in say a resort.

 

[CrowFrenzy]

Well in this case it's three First Nations people and no one else. So yes, it is.

You're assuming. How do you know white players weren't treated the same?

 

[pjcrows]

You're assuming. How do you know white players weren't treated the same?

I'm referring to the information in the article.