Oppo Camp Non-Essendon Football Thread XVI

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ghostdog said:
The review was with regard to the experiences of Aboriginal players following the allegations made by Cyril, so it wasn't deemed necessary to give it that scope. The findings obviously have precipitated the need for 2.0.

Russell Jackson, the journo, has since said he reached out to Fagan by email and phone to offer right of reply but got no response. One presumes, given the gravity of the allegations, that he offered the same to Clarkson and Burt.
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The article itself says Clarkson and Fagan were contacted for comment. Off the top of my head I cannot remember if it also said Burt.

That in and of itself is very interesting to me, because it means there should have been zero surprise when the story broke, but Clarkson claims shock. The journalist could easily prove contact too.
 
I made the mistake of clicking on a Facebook thread... the number of time people genuinely type

"It happened 10 years ago, why are they coming out now" or

"Oh if it happened why didn't they speak to the other aboriginal people about it, why didn't they speak to Burgoyne about it"

I hate these points.

People don't always realize something is ****ed up in the moment, especially in their younger years. It takes time to look back and go wtf was that? This whole thing borders on religious obsession, which probably means all involved think it's normal.

I mean even at its best, it's surely a huge abuse of power and a severe lack of cultural sensitivity.
 

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rumply said:
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Tbh I've found this just as confronting, the casual nature of asking someone to leave a pool because he is making someone uncomfortable....like how?
How, why?
It just does not compute in my head why people would do something like that.
The lifeguard should have turned around and told the couple to leave. Like someone stand up and support him.
Just feel embarrassed to be part of a society that does this to people.
Default stance basically is people are shit, until they give you a reason to believe their not.
 
What’s the bet the AFL privately ban clubs from undertaking these ‘Do better’ type reports in the future?

I know it’s cynical, but I’m sure they will.
 
Mercurial89 said:
Tbh I've found this just as confronting, the casual nature of asking someone to leave a pool because he is making someone uncomfortable....like how?
How, why?
It just does not compute in my head why people would do something like that.
The lifeguard should have turned around and told the couple to leave. Like someone stand up and support him.
Just feel embarrassed to be part of a society that does this to people.
Default stance basically is people are s**t, until they give you a reason to believe their not.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately that's my experience as well, wish it wasn't but here we are.
 
Mercurial89 said:
Tbh I've found this just as confronting, the casual nature of asking someone to leave a pool because he is making someone uncomfortable....like how?
How, why?
It just does not compute in my head why people would do something like that.
The lifeguard should have turned around and told the couple to leave. Like someone stand up and support him.
Just feel embarrassed to be part of a society that does this to people.
Default stance basically is people are s**t, until they give you a reason to believe their not.
Click to expand...
I was asked by a friend's father to smoke outside, when everyone in the room was smoking. It still happens.
 
doug85 said:
What’s the bet the AFL privately ban clubs from undertaking these ‘Do better’ type reports in the future?

I know it’s cynical, but I’m sure they will.
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I'm cynical enough to believe they'd want to, but it'd leak too easily which would likely stop them attempting it.
 
silk said:
I made the mistake of clicking on a Facebook thread... the number of time people genuinely type

"It happened 10 years ago, why are they coming out now" or

"Oh if it happened why didn't they speak to the other aboriginal people about it, why didn't they speak to Burgoyne about it"

I hate these points.

People don't always realize something is *ed up in the moment, especially in their younger years. It takes time to look back and go wtf was that? This whole thing borders on religious obsession, which probably means all involved think it's normal.

I mean even at its best, it's surely a huge abuse of power and a severe lack of cultural sensitivity.
Click to expand...
It’s not religious — it’s cultural. Systemic. Engrained. So ****ing normalised that people don’t notice or question it until they’re shocked out of that space for a millisecond and finally look with their eyes open as a human being, and without ego.

I bet the old couple at the pool who tried to get Betts kicked out didn’t think they were being racist either — but as Eddie said, it’s always him. Always the black guy who “not racist but” gets targeted like that. The older couple and perhaps their grandddaughter subconsciously saw an Aboriginal man with three kids of his own as a threat.

It’s the same with sexism and a host of other engrained cultural things.
 
Daniel Cherny for CodeSports:
During 2020, with Australian states entering their first wave of lockdowns and the AFL season placed on hiatus, a young Indigenous player who had been drafted to an interstate club returned home to be closer to relatives as everyone waited for clarity on when the campaign would resume.

The player was back with his loved ones and able to live comfortably during a period of immense uncertainty around the nation, and the world.

But that wasn’t acceptable to the player’s senior coach.

The coach - according to a senior club staffer at the time who has requested anonymity in order to share this story - was concerned that the Indigenous player would spend too much time with the wrong sorts of people, doing the wrong sorts of things, back home. The coach argued that the player would be better served living with strangers in a locked down city, even though the season remained on hold for the foreseeable future.

The coach, according to the staffer, was told that it would be in the interests of the player’s welfare for him to remain in his home state. The coach is alleged to have responded that he didn’t care about welfare, he only cared about performance.

*****

Several of the biggest footy racism storms of the last decade have been based around what clubs euphemistically describe as “historical” allegations.

When the ABC exposed the horrific abuse suffered by former St Kilda player Robbie Muir in the 1970s and 1980s, the Saints hierarchy could deal with the issues head-on, unencumbered by the risk that they would be personally implicated.

Likewise, when Collingwood’s Do Better report was revealed by the Herald Sun last year, many of the key incidents cited by the report’s authors - like the vilifaction of Nicky Winmar and Michael Long - were already more than a quarter of a century old.

That president Eddie McGuire eventually resigned owed in large part to the fact he bungled a press conference appearance at which he responded to the report, and the baggage which he carried from more than two decades in the job, including his own series of gaffes which would be held against him in the court of public opinion.

In 2015, when Adam Goodes retired disenfranchised after being hounded by fans for months, the league and clubs could ultimately retain an arm’s length from the perpetrators of the booing, cloaked in the anonymity of the outer.

When it emerged last year that former Gold Coast Suns player Joel Wilkinson had been the victim of a blackface incident at a post-season event in 2013, and had in 2016 been told by his then-agent that his stance against racism had hindered his chances of being handed an AFL lifeline, the league - while stressing its regret about the way Wilkinson was treated several times during his career - could defer to the fact that Wilkinson had not made legal headway over allegations levelled against the league and several of its clubs.

And when Eddie Betts and Josh Jenkins last month confirmed key awful details of Adelaide’s 2018 pre-season training camp, most of the Crows’ key officeholders at the time had already departed the club. Again, Adelaide had relative freedom to deal with the issues with minimal disruption from a purely personnel sense.

Football director Mark Ricciuto was a clear primary target when it came to calls for resignation, mainly because he was about the only one left from the time of the camp. That Safe Work SA somehow found no wrongdoing on behalf of the club also provided a safety net for those involved, including then-coach and now Sydney assistant Don Pyke.

It is why the circumstances of Wednesday’s ABC report are so extraordinary.

There is no hiding here for the individuals involved. No obvious path for deflection or scapegoating. That two of the three alleged to have wronged Hawthorn Indigenous players are current AFL coaches heightens the stakes dramatically.

Chris Fagan was stood down by the Brisbane Lions on Wednesday. Imagine if the Lions were playing in the grand final on Saturday.

And then there is Alastair Clarkson, a man who seemed on the road to hall of fame legend status, with the chance to elevate his legacy by saving beleaguered North Melbourne. Now his reputation stands at the crossroads. It is a long way back if what is alleged - particularly the claim that a player and his partner were pressured into getting an abortion - is substantiated by an independent panel.

The AFL and its clubs love to parade themselves as being leaders when it comes to reconciliation. And it is undeniable that football, at least to an extent, has amplified the voices of First Nations people in a divided nation.

But has the league truly been ahead of the curve?

Only in 2021, after Adelaide star Taylor Walker had racially vilified former St Kilda player Robbie Young during the break of an SANFL game, did the AFL mandate that all clubs had to employ full-time Indigenous liaison officers.

Just a fortnight ago the league ran into trouble as it tried to navigate the choppy culture war infested waters of dually commemorating the queen’s death and marking AFLW Indigenous Round. A lack of adequate initial consultation was among the biggest criticisms of the AFL’s handling of the issue.

The AFL’s list of issues with First Nations players is long - and lengthening.

What will it take for clubs to universally walk the walk on cultural safety?
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www.codesports.com.au

No Cookies | CODE Sports

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www.codesports.com.au www.codesports.com.au

There’s a couple of stories in there that I don’t remember hearing at the time, just goes to show though :(
 
Lore said:
Daniel Cherny for CodeSports:

www.codesports.com.au

No Cookies | CODE Sports

No Cookies | CODE Sports
www.codesports.com.au www.codesports.com.au

There’s a couple of stories in there that I don’t remember hearing at the time, just goes to show though :(
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Good editorial. There's still a lot of work to be done in colloboration with Aboriginal people, with migrants, with women in order to be proactive and educational, rather than reactive and evasive. More people from disenfranchised groups in leadership positions would be a good start.
 
Also think this one is important. It’s a column by Mathew Stokes:

The seriousness of the allegations demanded they do so but it was no coincidence from my vantage point that it took a non-Indigenous journalist’s story in the mainstream media to prompt action when Indigenous people have raised all sorts of issues relating to their treatment for decades.

Of course, those allegations are yet to be tested and the people at the centre of them deserve as much as anyone the right to have their version of events heard, and it sits uncomfortably with me that they weren’t afforded the opportunity to do that as soon as or before the report was tabled.
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But that does not absolve the AFL Commission, led by unseen chairman Richard Goyder and the executive led by AFL CEO Gillon McLachlan, from the harsh reality that the game has a systemic issue with racism that has not been addressed under their watch.

Following the AFL apology in 2019 that followed the treatment Adam Goodes received at the hands of fans, and the limp response from most of the game’s leaders to the booing of the Swans champion, alarm bells have rung every year that the situation relating to the way Indigenous issues are managed was not improving.
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In the past few years there has been no leadership or accountability, merely repeated promises to learn as the game lurches from one outrage to the next.

We have had the following issues and reports either washed away or managed, or there has been a fall person to deflect attention from the AFL’s inaction:

…

Still, the list gets longer as we stagger from incident to incident without improved systems or real accountability from those at the top, such as Goyder, who we never hear from or see when controversial issues arise.
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www.theage.com.au

Goyder and McLachlan need to take responsibility

The AFL have had plenty of warning signs that issues surrounding Indigenous people were not being properly considered, yet little has been done to ensure Indigenous people have a real voice in the game.
www.theage.com.au www.theage.com.au
 

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Betts and others calling for reviews at all clubs.

McLachlan:
McLachlan said the league had taken the view that an independent investigation was warranted into the Hawthorn allegations, but for any future cases, it would depend on the nature and circumstances of allegations.

"I hope that history says that all allegations will be taken seriously and investigated thoroughly and confidentially," he said.

"And that's the challenging part about this, that these courageous people have come forward and now there's a huge spotlight on them. And I hope it doesn't deter them to lean in on this and have that conviction to tell their stories to this independent panel so that we can get to the bottom of this."
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So basically they’ll only investigate if someone has enough courage to make public accusations. I read Mick Warner’s book. Not even surprised.

McLachlan also said he supported increased Indigenous representation at club level and did not rule out quotas to require an Indigenous Australian on all club boards.
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Yes, social media is a cess pool, yes, in particular the Herald Sun comments section is a cess pool - but I was genuinely outraged and upset by what I read there yesterday. I'm not going to repeat stuff word for word, but terms like 'playing the race card' and 'they're too much trouble' and 'looking for a payout' featured. Out of the 100 comments I skimmed, I'd say 90 agreed with these sentiments. We have learnt nothing, and appear to not want to learn anything.
 
There needs to be reviews across all clubs.
 
The word education always comes up, education should only be used to teach people about the atrocities that have happened in the past.

But no, we are so ****ed as a society we actually have to teach people how to respect and treat others as equals into the future.

The people saying "playing the race card" are a huge part of the problem. These are the people that believe they aren't racist but are apologists for the people that are. If you defend racism by saying people are "playing the race card", I'm sorry but your racist.
 
Eleven 38 said:
The word education always comes up, education should only be used to teach people about the atrocities that have happened in the past.
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Education comes up because it's a civil issue. Fines, suspensions, loss of accreditation, community service, education programs and apologies are basically all you can ask for, which words are wind and if you have more money than you know what to do with then it's really just a slap on the wrist. Loss of accreditation or a suspension is really the only one that hurts in that scenario, but then you run up against a team of lawyers and potentially a restraint of trade case.
 
I think in terms of the AFL maybe they need to have a requirement where all welfare issues have to have a support person present for the player – so the player's manager, an AFLPA representative, or someone else of their choice who isn't necessarily employed by the club such as a friend, family member, lawyer, etc.
 
Eleven 38 said:
The word education always comes up, education should only be used to teach people about the atrocities that have happened in the past.

But no, we are so *ed as a society we actually have to teach people how to respect and treat others as equals into the future.

The people saying "playing the race card" are a huge part of the problem. These are the people that believe they aren't racist but are apologists for the people that are. If you defend racism by saying people are "playing the race card", I'm sorry but your racist.
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I think it’s more breaking the generational hand me downs where someone’s grandparent has some views that were common in their day but aren’t acceptable anymore, that unless young people hear differently, they just kind of absorb.

Not well worded but hopefully the sentiment makes sense; the idea of education in this sense is breaking down these inherited things that go fairly subconsciously and innocuously from one generation to the next unless they’re otherwise challenged or changed.

No, it shouldn’t be needed, but in reality it is, and the better we educate, the better and sooner we can see changes.
 
Lore said:
It’s not religious — it’s cultural. Systemic. Engrained. So ******* normalised that people don’t notice or question it until they’re shocked out of that space for a millisecond and finally look with their eyes open as a human being, and without ego.

I bet the old couple at the pool who tried to get Betts kicked out didn’t think they were being racist either — but as Eddie said, it’s always him. Always the black guy who “not racist but” gets targeted like that. The older couple and perhaps their grandddaughter subconsciously saw an Aboriginal man with three kids of his own as a threat.

It’s the same with sexism and a host of other engrained cultural things.
Click to expand...

Good points. I wasn't suggesting it was religious, just that it reminded me of the creepy shit that gets done in the name of god. To me this is a step above what has been normalized, at least from a societal baseline; maybe not in the football world.

The whole "I know best, I'm above you, this is for your own good" attitude.
 
silk said:
The whole "I know best, I'm above you, this is for your own good" attitude.
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There is a word for that.

Actually, I can think of several...
 
Mr Mojo Risin said:
Corporate psychopaths exist in many high performance management positions. There’s been a number of studies on the matter. They are well trained in saying the correct things to appear empathetic etc because they understand they need to to have that role these days
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My wife was in a management position a few years back and her boss was great... until he wasn't. He suddenly became a complete prick and made her job hell. She was so distressed she ended up quitting even though it meant she'd be out of a job. It turned out that he just wanted to give her job to his mate.

So I agree, there are psychopaths and it doesn't surprise me that bad behaviour is still prevalent. I didn't realise that our first nation people were being treated even worse in some circumstances, I thought we had progressed in that area, but obviously we still have a fair way to go.
 
Dave said:
There needs to be reviews across all clubs.
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You would have to be bats*it insane to agree to a review of your club. It's astonishing that clubs didn't learn from us or Collingwood. The reviewer will almost certainly feel the need to virtue signal and find anything they can to justify their existence. At best the club will get a fair hearing in which case outsiders will call it a whitewash so you're back to where you started.
 
IHurley said:
You would have to be bats*it insane to agree to a review of your club. It's astonishing that clubs didn't learn from us or Collingwood. The reviewer will almost certainly feel the need to virtue signal and find anything they can to justify their existence. At best the club will get a fair hearing in which case outsiders will call it a whitewash so you're back to where you started.
Click to expand...

Seems like Hawthorn's reviewers picked up more than enough not to need to virtue signal.
 
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