Oppo Camp Non-Essendon Football Thread XVI

[Lore]

But the study only has 6 of the required 80 players in order to complete it.

It's probative value then for establishing a duty of care (and subsequent breach) is very limited - 6 is way too small of a sample size, and if the AFL continues to stone wall them then the study link to actual effects on retired and current AFL footballers is largely theoretical.

So they can subpoena it all they want, but I doubt it is of any value if it is incomplete to the extent that it is.

6?

Shawry said 500… I evidently need to watch the 7.30 report for details

Surely they finished surveying before they ran out of money…

 

[TheGrizz]

6?

Shawry said 500… I evidently need to watch the 7.30 report for details

Surely they finished surveying before they ran out of money…

The AFL run survey has 500 participants.

The brain study only in the story currently has access to 6 retired players, despite them alleging the AFL promised them access to the survey to then add to the study (that needs 80).

A study that has 8% of the data required to make the required findings would be low hanging fruit for opposing counsel in court, and I suspect the AFL and the people backing the brain study are both acutely aware of this.

 

[Lore]

The survey has 500 participants, the brain study only has access to 6 retired players, despite them alleging the AFL promised them access to the survey to then add to the study (that needs 80).

Right. So the study isn’t actually owned by the AFL though. It’s not their IP, they aren’t paying for it, and they don’t have control of it.

All they’re doing is stonewalling the release of past player contact details to the researchers — but they’re not the only people who have such details, they don’t own that either.

If the researchers wanted to go ahead they could, they’d just have to find another way of recruiting participants. But there’s always the question of $$$, researchers gotta eat too

 

[citizen-erased]

I wonder if WorkSafe would take an interest in it or the AFLPA surely

rock and a hard place for the AFLPA

health and safety of their members vs. the very nature of their work.

 

[Lore]

rock and a hard place for the AFLPA

health and safety of their members vs. the very nature of their work.

Yeah I’d say the AFL would have a lot of influence over stopping the AFLPA getting involved in stuff.

 

[Albertross]

Which means as soon as someone sues it’ll come out anyway.

How many past players have already sued the AFL, or their former club, for a lack of duty of care in regards to head knocks.

I know Diesel did, Shaw from Adelaide as well if I recall correctly. I thought there were more.

Interestingly, studies on head knocks go back as to as early as the start of this century. It appears that as with anything AFL, the numbers of some studies, which affects the outcome, have been fudged due to certain circumstances not meeting the criteria.

Players who retired from concussion excluded from landmark AFL study

Three academics have raised concerns about the research because they claim it excluded almost 40 per cent of players who were concussed during the time of the study and did not examine the long-term effects of their injuries.

www.theage.com.au

There was talk about a class action in 2017 that involved John Barnes.

Former footy player to lead concussion lawsuit against AFL

"I know things are changing in my mind and I want answers."

www.9news.com.au

As of this year, it appears that this process is still in motion from what I can tell, with some rather disturbing accounts from former players coming to light.

Pain, glory, concussion: former AFL players and their families speak out about league inaction

Unable to live normal lives due to brain injuries sustained on the field, some ex-athletes are asking: where is the support?

www.theguardian.com

I would say that this story would be all to familiar with Shane's family. Time for the AFL to face this front on, regardless of the financial cost. We owe these men, who put their body on the line for entertainment.

‘He was just a baby’: CTE robbed footy player of his brain and then his life | Emma Kemp

Amateur player Andrew Macpherson killed himself at the age of 33. Now his family want to educate about the effects of concussion in sport

www.theguardian.com

As a club, we got hammered from pillar to post for what we did during the Saga (rightfully so), yet this affects for more players than we could ever imagine, yet all we hear from the AFL is crickets.

 

[TheGrizz]

Right. So the study isn’t actually owned by the AFL though. It’s not their IP, they aren’t paying for it, and they don’t have control of it.

Which is exactly why, I suspect, they have withdrawn their support. I suspect that if there is going to be a damning report, the AFL at least want to be in control of the variables.

All they’re doing is stonewalling the release of past player contact details to the researchers — but they’re not the only people who have such details, they don’t own that either.

If the researchers wanted to go ahead they could, they’d just have to find another way of recruiting participants. But there’s always the question of $$$, researchers gotta eat too

Sure, this is correct, but not all past players will have CTE, and there would be literal tens of thousands of past players - so where do you start? How do you contact them? How many games of AFL do they have to have played to qualify and for other co-morbidities to be a factor?

That is a massive exercise in cost and time to wade through that mountain of obstacles and possible data to pinpoint the 80 test subjects that meet your study criteria, time and money I suspect they don't have.

Alternatively, the AFL has this neat 500 player survey that could hand it to them on a platter. I would not be surprised if the funding for the study was in some way contingent on the survey being part of it.

The AFL isn't going to hand over medical information of surveyed players to an organisation to write a damning report they don't have control of. As sad as that is.

 

[Lore]

Which is exactly why, I suspect, they have withdrawn their support. I suspect that if there is going to be a damning report, the AFL at least want to be in control of the variables.

Sure, this is correct, but not all past players will have CTE, and there would be literal tens of thousands of past players - so where do you start? How do you contact them? How many games of AFL do they have to have played to qualify and for other co-morbidities to be a factor?

That is a massive exercise in cost and time to wade through that mountain of obstacles and possible data to pinpoint the 80 test subjects that meet your study criteria, time and money I suspect they don't have.

Alternatively, the AFL has this neat 500 player survey that could hand it to them on a platter. I would not be surprised if the study was in some way contingent on the survey being part of it.

The AFL isn't going to hand over medical information of surveyed players to an organisation to write a damning report they don't have control of. As sad as that is.

CTE can only be diagnosed post-mortem afaik. So maybe start with the dead ones

 

[citizen-erased]

Yeah I’d say the AFL would have a lot of influence over stopping the AFLPA getting involved in stuff.

thing is, it's a dangerous game.
my niece is 12 and has 2 already. the road ahead is keep playing and risk serious health implications or stop. It's huge for her parents.

And there's really nothing that can be done about it. very nature of the game opens such wide risk for head collisions - tackles, falls, hits.

It's an abyss of a conundrum.
Even if the AFL goes down the path of waivers, can it shield itself from liability for every player in the past? And does it risk it's future by asking players to absolve the league of any responsibility.
Unless you can find a cure for the damage, it's an extremely large elephant in the room

 

[TheGrizz]

CTE can only be diagnosed post-mortem afaik. So maybe start with the dead ones

Then what's the point of asking the AFL for the 500 man survey? They are retired not dead as far as it is known.

The article notes the study includes alzheimers and other brain diseases. I imagine that the attempts at finding diagnostic tools for CTE involves linking the prevalence of diseases Iike Alzheimers, personality disorders etc in players with repeated concussions.

Having a survey of players earmarked by the AFL as having symptoms of CTE and repeated head knocks would, in that case, be very handy.

 

[Lore]

Then what's the point of asking the AFL for the 500 man survey? They are retired not dead as far as it is known.

The article notes the study includes alzheimers and other brain diseases. I imagine that the attempts at finding diagnostic tools for CTE involves linking the prevalence of diseases Iike Alzheimers, personality disorders etc in players with repeated concussions.

Having a survey of players earmarked by the AFL as having symptoms of CTE and repeated head knocks would, in that case, be very handy.

I think most of those can also only be diagnosed for sure after an autopsy.

But yeah. Just saying it’s not the only way, the AFLPA would have a mailing list or something they could ask for participants and screen them based on reported symptoms. There’d be ways if there is a will.

Could also ask the Epworth or another place that tends to see a lot of patients to ask their patients if they’re interested in being part of a study.

 

[sameolds33]

thing is, it's a dangerous game.
my niece is 12 and has 2 already. the road ahead is keep playing and risk serious health implications or stop. It's huge for her parents.

And there's really nothing that can be done about it. very nature of the game opens such wide risk for head collisions - tackles, falls, hits.

It's an abyss of a conundrum.
Even if the AFL goes down the path of waivers, can it shield itself from liability for every player in the past? And does it risk it's future by asking players to absolve the league of any responsibility.
Unless you can find a cure for the damage, it's an extremely large elephant in the room

I think that change is coming but these are still early days. You can see it in the commentary around play that, in the bad old days would be praised for bravery and is now seen as foolhardy. Maybe players are being coached differently too. It may be all in the timing - that the survey will be released at the "right" time for the AFL to both protect the game and minimise player injury but only once more measures (legal, technical, practical) have been put in place to protect the AFL's interests.

 

[citizen-erased]

I thought Adelaide fans on here were fairly mellow. But * me some of them have been completely rank with all the Rankine hullabaloo.

what is the current rate for Crows/Suns?

 

[citizen-erased]

its refreshing to watch the AFLW and see players trying to handball properly.

 

[Lore]

its refreshing to watch the AFLW and see players trying to handball properly.

Thought I was the only one who watched it — the kicking was a lot better than the last time I watched AFLW too. Better than the boys actually

It seems to be a skill that makes a big difference in this format so they focus on it more or something, might be the 16-6 that makes kick mark more effective, or just the fact that many of the older players let the game go and went into something else for a while so if you can kick you’ll probably get a gig as it’s rarer.

I wish they played full game time. Maybe one day

 

[citizen-erased]

Thought I was the only one who watched it — the kicking was a lot better than the last time I watched AFLW too. Better than the boys actually

It seems to be a skill that makes a big difference in this format so they focus on it more or something, might be the 16-6 that makes kick mark more effective, or just the fact that many of the older players let the game go and went into something else for a while so if you can kick you’ll probably get a gig as it’s rarer.

I wish they played full game time. Maybe one day

full game time can't be far off.
I do like 16 a side. AFL should pick it up and drop a player inside each arc.

it was nice seeing them keep the handball skill form alive. AFL is getting too "throwy" for me

 

[Lore]

full game time can't be far off.
I do like 16 a side. AFL should pick it up and drop a player inside each arc.

it was nice seeing them keep the handball skill form alive. AFL is getting too "throwy" for me

Not sure, 16 a side makes sense on little grounds but the G is huge.

I think the AFL is getting a bit of a “basketball on grass with 36 blokes and a sherrin” type of vibe, and handballs with it.

 

[ant555]

No wonder Clarkson signed at North. Got to choose his own boss .

 

[Albertross]

Skill levels improving year on year, which is great to see. There are some talented girls running around, particularly from the younger girls who have gone through the system and have been able to play footy right throughout their junior years.

Apart from lengthened game time, I want to see a full season, with possibly matches played as a curtain raiser to the men's game. Not sure if that would be detrimental to the game or not, or whether leaving as a stand alone format is the way to go.

Anyway, I enjoy watching them and probably watch more AFLW games over a weekend than AFL.

 

[citizen-erased]

No wonder Clarkson signed at North. Got to choose his own boss .

Im sure we'd have allowed this. Or at least a path to circumvent his authority

Dodoro clause

 

[astrowizzle]

Question. Does wearing helmets help prevent this? If so why is it not mandatory for all players to wear them

 

[andleanback]

Question. Does wearing helmets help prevent this? If so why is it not mandatory for all players to wear them

No it does not. Helmets protect from skull fractures, does nothing to stop blows to the head which impact the brain.

 

[Lore]

No it does not. Helmets protect from skull fractures, does nothing to stop blows to the head which impact the brain.

I think the AFL line is that helmets would make players feel safer than they really are and therefore behave in ways which are reckless and ultimately more dangerous for their brain health

 

[Nifft]

Question. Does wearing helmets help prevent this? If so why is it not mandatory for all players to wear them

I’m surprised the AFL haven’t pushed to make helmets compulsory under the guise of safety, just so they can have extra space for advertising.

 

[astrowizzle]

I took some pretty heavy hits to the head in the 80s and they're iz nutting wrogn wif ym brian