North on the Brink of financial disaster - The Age

[Tas]

Re: North on the Brink

Actually, Collingwood has $10m cash in the bank according to their latest annual report.
As far as other productive uses of that money go, sometimes term deposits and the like are as good as any. Banks are still the safest place to have money parked. What do you suggest? Pubs?

They are probably paranoid about investing it in anything after the hotel incident.

Money they want to invest long-term I would put a fair chunk in emerging markets, even managed funds do fairly well all things considered.

As an example: http://www.dfaus.com/portfolios/emg_mkts_small_cap_port/

They haven't had a stellar new year but their overall return for 12 months (to end of January) is 30.44%, 5 years 14.37% p.a., 10 years 18.66% p.a. and 16.18% p.a. since inception in 1998.

Note: I am not giving investment advice, just using it as an example, there are a lot of managed funds that perform very well.

When you compare that to what you get in the bank or term deposits and factor in inflation there is a significant opportunity cost in not investing wisely. A good investment strategy is to diversify, you need to spread the investment from portfolio to portfolio and manage the risk, a lot of investments that have a high yield are long term prospects and can't realistically be cashed out in the short-term unless you risk significant loss.

They would have people on the board and as advisers who are experts in the field. There is no good reason to keep a lot of money in cash unless you haven't devised your investment strategy.

They will probably opt out and do something predictable like buy another pokie venue and bleed the life out of some working class supporters.

 

[Tas]

Re: North on the Brink

For years Melbourne had the attitude tha we were constantly been shafted by the AFL, poor draw and victim mentality. Well, guess what, with that attitude we just went further and further into debt. It wasn't until Stynes, Schwab, Connolly and co got together and developed a strategic business plan to get the club out of the huge hole they were in.
They didn't rely on a handful of rich 'whiteknights' to bail them out, they engaged the whole membership. They successfully redeveloped the 'brand'
We aren't there yet but over the last three years they've done a wonderful job.

The Roos can do this as well, but they have to be united. They have to all work together. C'mon Roos, we know you can do it, shove it up the arseholes who want to see you die.

It is amazing how your turn around coincided with a radical improvement with your scheduling by the AFL.

 

[vjknight]

Re: North on the Brink

Wow, this makes for interesting (sometimes depressing, sometimes infuriating) reading.

Comments from neutrals fall into one of 3 categories :

* I hate North, can't wait to see them die
* I have a lot of respect for North, hope they get through this and I reckon they will
* Gee, I didn't realise how bad things were at North til I read The Age today ; I hope they survive, but I don't think they can

id like to add a 4th group, and i know you will disagree, but they are the majority.............

those of us that have observed north for many years, from near & far, congratulated them on their successes in the 70's & 90's, watched their champions and envied their comradeship, watched them try again & again to reinvent themselves & their position in the VFL/AFL, and despite the lack of cash & facilities, somehow remain. BUT we also see a club that doesnt seem to know when to quit, when to wave the white flag and concede their position is weakening every year that passes, and regretably have to consider a significant break from their past and look at how to ensure they have some future, allowing the tradition & brand KANGAROOS to continue, rather than try and keep their treasured NORTH MELBOURNE alive.

i believe they have the chance at present to say to any willing region that we are a name, a brand (nothing more recognised worldwide than a kangaroo), a licence, and are willing to work with you to develop the region thru AFL.
i fear that when they finally realise this option, it may be too late and they are simply forced into accepting whatever is offered in a mock fire sale (see fitzroy).

drive the option you want, rather than be compelled to take a very bleak option. but be realistic - a few games in hobart or ballarat is not going to achieve this.

i really wish them well. i also fear for their future as NORTH MELBOURNE.

 

[RooBoy72]

Re: North on the Brink

Putting aside the ordinary journalism and arguments re The Age's agenda or otherwise or the validity of the argument that North is "on the brink"...

Why is there not a balanced article and/or discussion on the the strangeness surrounding the precarious financial situation of large sections of the AFL despite the fact that Demetriou and co are rolling in the folding stuff? ....

We seem to have a governing body AND a small group of power clubs making more and more money off the back of a 16-team competition, while a (growing?) group of perennial strugglers find it harder and harder to stay upright (not just Nth Melb in AFL - at least Dees, Tigers, Saints, Port, Dogs, even the Tas Hawks in various depths of strugglesville in so far as assured futures)... despite the various mechanisms of egalitarianism we pretend exist.

Are we headed down the roads of EPL or F1 to an extent where the rich get richer and the rest can please themselves? Is that sustainable in the very small and definitely finite market that is Australia?

We are doing that as a society, so why not with our sporting leagues....

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Re: North on the Brink

Oh please. Spare me.

Everyone is either stupid or ignorant if they don't see the AFL as being a business first and foremost. They're not going to give a club who is barely breaking even prime-time. What successful business has anyone heard of that wants to lower their profit?

Except its not a business; its a sport. In order for sport to be taken seriously there is one major requirement and that is that each competitor is given an equal chance to win on their own merits. There needs to be a semblance of equality and fairness otherwise some competitors end up handicapped.

I understand why the AFL may want to "maximise" the FIXture but you can't do that at the expense of the competition. There's is no reason why there can't at least be a rolling draw where each team plays each other the same amount of times over say a three year period and giving each team equal opportunity with the prime time games.

I don't know about others but I would much rather see North play on a Friday night than a few other teams (like Adelaide, St. Kilda & Sydney for example).

I tried to find figures on the ASD but couldn't find anything with a quick google search. I'm pretty sure every club gets something though, its just that the extent of what they receive is measured against things like the FIXture, timeslots, FTA exposure, match takings etc. If teams like North get shunted onto Foxtel every other Sunday arvo at 4pm when there is also another game on FTA, of course they won't have as much exposure and therefore will not receive as much in sponsorship dollars. This is just one aspect of the extent to which they are handicapped.

I am thankful my team has a good FIXture this year, but it shouldn't be that way. When we do finally win a flag it will be even sweeter knowing that we have had to fight against the odds over the years to get there as I am sure it was for North in 1996 & 1999.

As for the comments re: Stynes, I think they are quite unfair. A lot of the foundations for the work done to clear our debt and plan for the future happened prior to July 2009. As someone else has said $2M raised in one night in August 2008. I hope we can continue to build to the point we no longer need additional ASD payments from the AFL and I am confident in the plan our administration have put in place to make that happen. Hopefully coupled with on-field success it will set us up for the future.

I hope North will be able to do the same because I don't want to see another Fitzroy and I don't understand the logic of those wishing to dance on the graves of another club. If you don't want to help fine but STFU and let those that do get on with it. What would a club like Coll, Ess, Geel, St. K or Haw gain by North folding or relocating?

 

[rdhopkins2]

Re: North on the Brink

Gee North's liquidity is a concern. How many of us are shocked though?

I hope for the sake of their supporters that they succeed in a bumper membership drive and all North Melbourne supporters put their money where their mouth is. Don't want to see another club go through what Hawthorn did with Melbourne. Stand up and be counted Kangas people- from your working class to your coterie and corporate sponsors.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Re: North on the Brink

It is amazing how your turn around coincided with a radical improvement with your scheduling by the AFL.

vice versa actually

 

[Rooboy 96]

Re: North on the Brink

vice versa actually

improvement off the feild causes improvement with scheduling by the AFL

sounds like it would be the other way to me

 

[Portia]

Re: North on the Brink

if a business proposition was put to you by someone who had stynes' illness, but it didn't suit you... would that force you to accept it?

How is that at all relevant?

I am saying that Stynes existing profile was not enough to be of great value, because lets face it, there are long-term players at every club, and I don't think there is a player on an AFL list that hasn't done charity work. But now that he has an illness that has drawn enormous sympathy and increased his media profile (would Channel Seven have done a doco on him if he was perfectly fit?), he is certainly more marketable, and by association so are the MFC.

no, demonheart was right

that is a revolting way of thinking

You must find business revolting.

 

[MightyHawks]

Re: North on the Brink

It defies logic that the AFL presses on with GWS and GC while North is hemorrhaging. This obviously hasn't happened overnight.

Can't see the 2 are mutually exclusive...

And (real) membership - ie revenues - dropping. Guessing all the people who signed on to save them from going have dropped back off again.
Profit/loss only on handout (I know 1 mill of that is standard distribution fund but they were getting 1.4 & listing a 270k profit).

Gutnick came in for the Dees & bought them a couple of pubs/clubs = assets that they're still living off. North also need something concrete.

Anyone who signed up for a year or two when Brayshaw said they really needed to work out whether they can survive in Melbourne was unhelpful. North need long term members not people who feel sorry for them.

You hate having to see a traditional vic club like North Melbourne suffer...but you have to wonder how it is going to survive.

The AFL wants a national competition. It's hard to see that happening without Victorian teams folding.

The AFL offered North its lifeline by moving to GC and it was knocked back. That decision was based on patriotism and loyalty...and for a few years its looked like the corner was turning. However, when all that patriotism wears off, the club has to survive as a going concern on its own 2 feet. It can't keep relying on passion from a supporter base that simply doesn't exist.


I hope the same thing doesn't happen to Melbourne. At the moment, Stynes has been able to rally a lot of support and get funding. Everyone is passionate and onboard. But once all that passion dies off and the fundraising stops...will those supporters stay?? Let's hope so.




As much of a traditionalist as I am...i am also a realist. I can't see 10 Victorian clubs surviving for much longer. I can't see the AFL wanting 10 Victorian clubs either. We want to fill the MCG...not half fill it. Merging teams may have some short term repurcusions...but eventually the fans will come back and teams will have more supporters as there are less options.

In 20 years, I don't see 10 Vic teams in the competition.

I agree. But then in 1997 I'd never have predicted that all 10 victorian clubs would still be here in 2011.

A fairer draw with increased FTA exposure would increase revenue from sponsorship and coperate sources which are a major source of revenue. Even if the gate receipts increased by only a small portion it would still make a significant improvement to the club if we could sell the club to corporations knowing in advance we would not get screwed in terms of scheduling.

Do you think Emirates gives a shit about Collingwood? They want TV time.

Fairer draw is better for everyone, but realistically it's not going to be perfectly fair... ie. Eagles will play Dockers twice every year...

Check out North's draw in 2008 or 2009. They got the best possible crowd attracting fixture one year they could ever wish/dream about... Seriously, Tigers, Pies (Fri night), Bombers & Hawks all in the first 6 rounds... I think they played 8/9 Victorian teams in Melbourne... Carlton on a Fri night too...
Only 3 interstate and one of those was Brisbane Lions who've a reasonable Victorian following.
They didn't turn it into huge crowds though...

So if we played the Pies every Anzac day live on TV there would not be 90k at the game and thousands watching the game? Even though Essendon who were pus in 2010 and played an embarrassing brand of football on Anzac day still got thousands to watch the game.

Also I really enjoy Friday night football. 11th V 14th from 2010 is really a joke of a game against 2 crap teams but still I will watch - even if the football is pus. General lack of interest comes from people who don't really like football. I will be watching Crows V Bombers - as painful as it will be - its still football.

Friday night footy should be a showcase... but we don't want to see any team too often. Don't want to see North vs Melbourne on Friday night...

 

[TownleyTime]

Re: North on the Brink

They are probably paranoid about investing it in anything after the hotel incident..

I'd say! Do you understand who devised the idea to borrow $9 Million & ask the Collingwood board for approval?

 

[Ron The Bear]

Re: North on the Brink

Too right, revolting is exactly the right term, having Porthos arguing against it just reinforces my opinion.

Really, if people can't work out what's wrong with a comment like that they'll never be able to understand, it's clearly beyong them and no amount of reasoning will help.

Probably best to let them be ignorant...and revolting

Another revolting person here. Any Melbourne supporter worth their salt would feel shame or guilt at not contributing in some form, given the example set by Stynes in spite of his personal circumstances.

As it is, my club has its hand out again and while I'll donate over and above my regular annual contribution, it's no longer an unquestioned decision.

 

[SimonH]

Re: North on the Brink

...
I agree. But then in 1997 I'd never have predicted that all 10 victorian clubs would still be here in 2011.

This is the big issue. Is it that the Victorian clubs have defied gravity for an amazing period of time (14 years), and the laws of physics are finally catching up with them? Or is it that (with the largesse of AFL House influenced by the fact that over 50% of the clubs are still Victorian, many of whom think 'if them now, then maybe us next'), the rules have been re-written and there's enough money in the collective pot to ensure that all 10 Vic clubs survive indefinitely?

The number of Victorian-based clubs who have included qualified auditors' declarations in either their current, or a very recent, annual report, indicates that it's the former. The massive acceleration in AFL revenues in the last 20 years has been because the business is centrally run with a focus on money, money, money. The pot might be bigger for everyone, but the price of it being bigger is that there's no longer any room for sentiment in decision-making.

That said, the nature of:
a) TV deals (exceedingly bad look to provide less content than you've promised), and
b) the lack of a ready and obvious alternative market to move North Melb (or other failing Vic club) into in the short term (unless they're persuaded to re-think Tasmania),
means that survival in some form or other for most or all of the length of the next deal, is pretty much guaranteed. Circa 2016, unless there's been a miraculous turnaround in finances, there'll be some very heavy behind the scenes lobbying and number crunching as to what should happen with the licence of the weakest Vic club.

Remember, the AFL can pull the plug on this club, and another 2 or so Victorian clubs as well, with the stroke of a pen.

 

[KennyHunter9]

Re: North on the Brink

what a load of tosh. The networks pay enormous sums of money to the league, and need a return; hence the scheduling.

Maybe we should go back to being a provincial sport and forgo the TV rights money for "integrity"?

You're living in fantasy land

And you've always been a moron I suspect.

It's a sports competition, as mentioned elsewhere. To have integrity, it must be fair. Sell the fairness to the highest bidder and you have what we have now - a seriously compromised competition where it's much easier for the big teams to prosper.

If the AFL accepted slightly less for the TV rights, we could have a much fairer competition, draw wise, schedule wise and ground wise.

Furthermore, the special distribution fund should be renamed something that suggests it will be compulsory rather than discretionary, and that it's purpose is to ameliorate the bias in the draw. Journos are just too thick to understand this and seem to want to treat the money as if it's a temporary lifeline that could run out any day. It isn't and it won't.

 

[Demon 16]

Re: North on the Brink

improvement off the feild causes improvement with scheduling by the AFL

sounds like it would be the other way to me

Lol - you have no idea.

I cant understand all the North supporters trying to convince themselves that ít isnt that bad'.

Brayshaw needs to capture a new market to increase the supporter base. The best option in order to maintain its identity is to discuss country Victoria options with the AFL's support.

Otherwise it has to be Hobart or Canberra imo.

 

[Rob]

Re: North on the Brink

Furthermore, the special distribution fund should be renamed something that suggests it will be compulsory rather than discretionary, and that it's purpose is to ameliorate the bias in the draw.

I would actually like to see this. A completely objective look at each teams draw, and ASD money distributed on this basis. Such as points allocated for various timeslots and the like, and a ranking of all the clubs determining how much extra money they get.

The Bulldogs would go broke within a couple of years. From 09-11 they have been getting one of the best draws and their ASD would be cut from $1.6m to zero. WA clubs would do brilliantly well out of it. Year after year they get terrible draws with poor access to the best timeslots. So give them $1.5m each to add to their current large profits.

Bloody brilliant idea. You didn't think that one through did you?

Journos are just too thick to understand this and seem to want to treat the money as if it's a temporary lifeline that could run out any day. It isn't and it won't.

I guess that's like how some posters are too thick to realise the effect that their zany ideas would actually have.

 

[Gus]

Re: North on the Brink

I think the last group (probably the majority) are the target audience for The Age's current campaign to denigrate North at every opportunity.

Damn those evil newspapers- the Hun is after the Saints and now the Age is targeting North.

It's all a conspiracy I tells ya! A conspiracy!

 

[vonn]

Re: North on the Brink

Except its not a business; its a sport. In order for sport to be taken seriously there is one major requirement and that is that each competitor is given an equal chance to win on their own merits. There needs to be a semblance of equality and fairness otherwise some competitors end up handicapped.

No. Australian football, Aussie rules, whatever you wish to call it is a sport. The AFL itself is a business.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Re: North on the Brink

No. Australian football, Aussie rules, whatever you wish to call it is a sport. The AFL itself is a business.

I disagree. The AFL is not a business; it's a competition. It is run "like" a business in order to ensure the competition is sustainable. In essence though the clubs and the AFL are not-for-profit organisations.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Re: North on the Brink

improvement off the feild causes improvement with scheduling by the AFL

sounds like it would be the other way to me

we were improving off the field before the AFL began to give us favourable draws, and FTA exposure

in 08 we barely had a game on fta which wasn't on a sunday

in 09 and 10' in was similar

this year (after improvement on field as well as removing our debt) we have a very favourable draw and some blockbuster friday and saturaday night games

i think we have more this year than the last three put together

 

[Demonheart]

Re: North on the Brink

It is amazing how your turn around coincided with a radical improvement with your scheduling by the AFL.

It's amazing how you can completely ignore the facts.

Melbourne started to get their shit together financially about three years ago, back then we still had a crap draw. The AFL clearly rewarded Melbourne for not whining and whinging and egtting on with the job.

The biggest problem that North faces is the victim mentality, and going by your posts you are a good example. North needs to stop blaming others (AFL, Caro, Tasmania etc) and start showing some nuggets.

 

[Demonheart]

Re: North on the Brink

Another revolting person here. Any Melbourne supporter worth their salt would feel shame or guilt at not contributing in some form, given the example set by Stynes in spite of his personal circumstances.

As it is, my club has its hand out again and while I'll donate over and above my regular annual contribution, it's no longer an unquestioned decision.

Not sure what you're trying to say, if you're having a go at me then you're way off the mark for several reasons. But I'll let you explain first what you meant

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Re: North on the Brink

maybe north could do a fundraiser for say, $1 mil or so.

and then invest that money in a secure form ie. stocks/property, etc.

even just throw it in a high interest bank account

simply so that they will have something working towards allieviating their debt long term and can get on with running their club and getting an operational profit

 

[DaVe86]

Re: North on the Brink

How are the Dogs, Roos and Dees geographical identities any different to other Melbourne clubs? Why shouldn't out of nine teams in Victoria there be one that represents the West for example? I would have thought being the only side in the west of Melbourne (Essendon maybe borderline but they hardly embrace the west) would be a boost to the Dogs future prospects. Why would you have one team representing the entire Melbourne population when there are eight teams in Melbourne? How is North Melbourne being named after a suburb any different to the numerous other clubs doing the same thing? Aren't Melbourne in theory representing all of Melbourne, hence the name Melbourne? Strange, strange argument.

i was merely brainstorming. My point was that I think at least another 2 Vic clubs will go bust in the next 10-20 years. We've had 5 new teams enter the comp in 20 years, so more will come. And as the more enter, the more pressure will be put onto the Vic clubs to survive. I simply can't see Victorian holding onto 10 teams forever. Eventually, we will lose some. We've already lost 2. I don't think it's an IF, i think its a WHEN will it happen.


Considering Dogs, Melbourne and North Melbourne are the 3 poorest clubs, I was merely putting out the idea that if the 3 would merge, they could actually create a super-team that would rival any of the big 4 clubs. Given the fact they represent a similar geographic area, it is a huge chance to become the biggest club in the AFL. Melbourne aren't representing the whole of Melbourne if we have a North and a West side in the comp.



No doubt the AFL climate is going to become harder and harder to survive in as more teams enter and TV rights dominate fixturing. I can't see it becoming any easier for North Melbourne considering they simply don't have the fans. Even as Melbourne and Doggies improve, they still don't have large fan bases either. Combining the 3 brings the competition back to 16 sides and gives them the best chance of survival in the next 100 years.

 

[Slattery_20]

Re: North on the Brink

maybe north could do a fundraiser for say, $1 mil or so.

and then invest that money in a secure form ie. stocks/property, etc.

even just throw it in a high interest bank account

simply so that they will have something working towards allieviating their debt long term and can get on with running their club and getting an operational profit

If they can get a deal where they earn more interest on $1M than they pay on $1M - let alone 6! - they're geniuses... that's kinda the bank's entire margins