Other Australasian casinos (not Crown or Burswood)

[ashley12]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

I think you should rathole anything that you dont feel comfortable with losing. i.e, you might not be afraid of losing your 200 buyin etc, but dont want to run that up to 600 and then drop it after getting 3 outed etc... About deepstack poker, just make sure if you go with a hand against those that look weak, keep firing etc... and dont take being superdeep as an excuse to play junk like J9o OOP and low suited connectors OOP to a raise...

Played last night, accidently stuffed up the post so cliffnotes...

• Ash runs pretty well up to 600 from the 200 buy-in
• Ash loses a pretty big flip all in pre 66 vs my AK, and surprisingly dosent shoot anyone...
• Ash plays limit, ships his biggest ever limit pot. Flop gets capped pre with 5 runners with QQ, flop top set and cap the flop and turn. River is a 10 which gives a lot of straight draws but they all missed, including cracking KK...
• Ash then donks most that off, but walks away with a tidy profit...

 

[Royal Flush]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

I'm fairly sure you're wrong there. By law, ratholing IS allowed in NSW and QLD. Thus, I would do whatever I personally feel comfortable with. RF, confirm with floor staff that you are allowed to chip down, they will probably say that you can, but it is frowned upon. So if you want to pocket $200-$300, just do it.

Its' called rat holing? interesting.

 

[Royal Flush]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

... and dont take being superdeep as an excuse to play junk like J9o OOP and low suited connectors OOP to a raise...

Excuse my ignorance what is OOP

 

[ashley12]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

OOP = Out of position...

i.e, you are first to act before the flop. On a full table, you are OOP to 7 people after the flop potential, so what hands you play changes compared to when on the button. Basically, being out of position makes it harder to make money from suited connectors and with a hand like AJ on an ace high board can be tough to see where you are at... you could be against AK etc...

 

[Royal Flush]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

OOP = Out of position...

i.e, you are first to act before the flop. On a full table, you are OOP to 7 people after the flop potential, so what hands you play changes compared to when on the button. Basically, being out of position makes it harder to make money from suited connectors and with a hand like AJ on an ace high board can be tough to see where you are at... you could be against AK etc...

Thanks for that OOP. I just didn't know the abbreviation. That game was weird for me, because every good hand I got was in S/BB. Being a Limping table I couldn't just call ever. On the button and late I never got a playable hand, the best I ever got was K8 or something average like that. Most hands weren't even worth a $5 limp, like 74, 82, 93 ect when I was on the button.

I usually play position well, but hey I sort of had no choice because of the cards.
Unusually there were a lot of players on this table that limped with AA,QQ that night? really weird.
Having said that

My down fall also was position, never really knew where I was at in some hands and it cost at times. Thank god for the aggressive players who would re-raise my bets. They let me know exactly where they were at.

 

[paxmaniac]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

On reflection and actually writing this I realized it was too small a bet. But in context of the table it was big enough to get 6 to fold. Your right, there was one flush chaser who called.
The other had a piece of the flop.

IMO this is a big sign that your bet was the wrong size. It was big enough to force people to fold if they were drawing almost dead against you (e.g holding one pair or overcards), but not big enough to force the players with outs to fold (e.g holding two pair or the flush draw).

When there are 8 players to the flop, there is actually a pretty good case for making a really small bet like $30 into $160. This may actually build the pot substantially as players with overcards or better will look at the pot size and think it is worth staying in for such a small amount. If you are lucky someone in late position might raise it with something like top pair or a flush draw, trapping all the players in between for an even larger amount.

When the pot is really big on the flop, there isn't a whole lot of value in attempting to price out a flush draw. It's fairly unlikely that a flush draw is folding unless they are worried about higher draws.

 

[mdc]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

I'm fairly sure you're wrong there. By law, ratholing IS allowed in NSW and QLD. Thus, I would do whatever I personally feel comfortable with. RF, confirm with floor staff that you are allowed to chip down, they will probably say that you can, but it is frowned upon. So if you want to pocket $200-$300, just do it.

Wow, that's mental.

Personally, I definitely think it's unethical. I'd never do it, and I'd quite probably abuse anyone that did.

 

[mdc]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

When there are 8 players to the flop, there is actually a pretty good case for making a really small bet like $30 into $160.

If the flop was like K84, then sure.

On a flop of J74, with a flush draw, that's asking for trouble.

 

[Royal Flush]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

IMO this is a big sign that your bet was the wrong size. It was big enough to force people to fold if they were drawing almost dead against you (e.g holding one pair or overcards), but not big enough to force the players with outs to fold (e.g holding two pair or the flush draw).

When there are 8 players to the flop, there is actually a pretty good case for making a really small bet like $30 into $160. This may actually build the pot substantially as players with overcards or better will look at the pot size and think it is worth staying in for such a small amount. If you are lucky someone in late position might raise it with something like top pair or a flush draw, trapping all the players in between for an even larger amount.

When the pot is really big on the flop, there isn't a whole lot of value in attempting to price out a flush draw. It's fairly unlikely that a flush draw is folding unless they are worried about higher draws.

I understand your point of slow playing. But the casino attracts all sorts of players, who will call almost any bet if they think they may catch on the turn/river. I have seen too many times sets get smashed. My theory is a set is great, but it's not that crash hot agaisnt straights and flushes. So thats why I will always bet it, always. At the Casino there is always a gambler or 2 that will call.

A bit like top two pair, looks awesome on the flop but just too weak to slow play.

 

[paxmaniac]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

I understand your point of slow playing. But the casino attracts all sorts of players, who will call almost any bet if they think they may catch on the turn/river. I have seen too many times sets get smashed. My theory is a set is great, but it's not that crash hot agaisnt straights and flushes. So thats why I will always bet it, always. At the Casino there is always a gambler or 2 that will call.

A bit like top two pair, looks awesome on the flop but just too weak to slow play.

But my point is that it is very difficult for you to price out the flush draw when the pot is so big. If you want to price out the draw on the flop, you need to shove (with so many players you can probably check raise).

A medium size bet means that only the players who have the odds to chase you (i.e the FD) are likely to call, while all the very marginal hands will fold. A small bet into many players can swell the pot substantially without changing the risk that you will be outdrawn on the turn.

 

[paxmaniac]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

If the flop was like K84, then sure.

On a flop of J74, with a flush draw, that's asking for trouble.

You have to weigh up the risks. If you are not prepared to risk losing the pot, you have to shove the flop - which will win you the $160.

OTOH, suppose you make a $30 bet called in 5 places. This makes the pot $340 on the turn. Obviously if the flush card comes you are probably beaten and will have to fold to a big bet (or call for pot odds chasing a boat). If a T, 9 or 8 comes there is a marginal chance someone has made a gutshot.

On average though, you will still be ahead and be well placed to pick up a pot of over $500.

A quick poker stove:
Your equity on the flop is 58% holding a set on the flop of Jh7h4c, against 7 players who hold the top 50% of starting hands.

So if the choice is between shoving and winning the $160 or slow playing, then you simply need to ensure that you can swell the pot to 160*(1/0.58)=$275 (less than $15 more per player) to ensure that you have not lost equity by the flop slow play.

 

[mdc]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

So if the choice is between shoving and winning the $160 or slow playing

Why is that the choice?

You're assuming that shove rarely/never gets called (false imo), or that bet sizes in between aren't a consideration.

Consider for example the choice between betting $30 and $60. For $30 to be better, we have to believe that doubling this bet will push out more than half the people that would have called $30. I see this as obv false, on average. Particularly given it's live.

 

[Royal Flush]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

You have to weigh up the risks. If you are not prepared to risk losing the pot, you have to shove the flop - which will win you the $160.

OTOH, suppose you make a $30 bet called in 5 places. This makes the pot $340 on the turn. Obviously if the flush card comes you are probably beaten and will have to fold to a big bet (or call for pot odds chasing a boat). If a T, 9 or 8 comes there is a marginal chance someone has made a gutshot.

On average though, you will still be ahead and be well placed to pick up a pot of over $500.

A quick poker stove:
Your equity on the flop is 58% holding a set on the flop of Jh7h4c, against 7 players who hold the top 50% of starting hands.

So if the choice is between shoving and winning the $160 or slow playing, then you simply need to ensure that you can swell the pot to 160*(1/0.58)=$275 (less than $15 more per player) to ensure that you have not lost equity by the flop slow play.

In hindsight I think the $75 bet into a $160 pot on the flop was good. Not too big, not too small. I think even if I bet $120 on the flop I still would have had the two callers (maybe). As it worked out the pot at the end was about $700. Dont get me wrong, I didn't want to scare everybody out withan All in $225 on the flop. Just minimize the chances of getting suckered out.

 

[paxmaniac]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

Why is that the choice?

You're assuming that shove rarely/never gets called (false imo), or that bet sizes in between aren't a consideration.

Consider for example the choice between betting $30 and $60. For $30 to be better, we have to believe that doubling this bet will push out more than half the people that would have called $30. I see this as obv false, on average. Particularly given it's live.

You obviously have to judge the table. I want to bet enough that some of the players with overcards and single pairs will continue to play, thinking their outs are live. Obviously if I think they will call 60, I will prefer to bet 60 than 30. Essentially I want to maximise the total amount of money going into the pot by dead hands. IMO if you bet $75, you are just going to get called by the hands that are drawing correctly against you, plus maybe AJ and KJ.

 

[paxmaniac]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

In hindsight I think the $75 bet into a $160 pot on the flop was good. Not too big, not too small. I think even if I bet $120 on the flop I still would have had the two callers (maybe). As it worked out the pot at the end was about $700. Dont get me wrong, I didn't want to scare everybody out withan All in $225 on the flop. Just minimize the chances of getting suckered out.

I disagree, because the only players who folded to your $75 were the players who couldn't beat you anyway. So you actually weren't minimising the chance of getting suckered out on. I agree that it worked out well because two players were chasing and they didn't hit. But if they did hit, you would have been stacked.

 

[mdc]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

You obviously have to judge the table. I want to bet enough that some of the players with overcards and single pairs will continue to play, thinking their outs are live. Obviously if I think they will call 60, I will prefer to bet 60 than 30. Essentially I want to maximise the total amount of money going into the pot by dead hands. IMO if you bet $75, you are just going to get called by the hands that are drawing correctly against you, plus maybe AJ and KJ.

You're greatly under-estimating the looseness of live players.

AJ/KJ never, ever folds. Overpairs obv never fold.

I mean, if you're betting $60 into $160, I'd suggest Jx always calls. 88-TT calls most of the time. A fair few 7's will also call.

All you'd do by dropping it to $30 is get the 58's and the 35's to play along - which is what you probably don't want.

 

[ashley12]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

A lot of live players also wont look at the bet compared to the pot. So 60 is a big bet, that will get all hands less the QJ with no redraws out IMO....

I think 75 is about the right bet in this spot actually, and depending on how much you and the rest of the table had behind, putting in a large bet on the non flush card turn...

 

[Royal Flush]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

A lot of live players also wont look at the bet compared to the pot. So 60 is a big bet, that will get all hands less the QJ with no redraws out IMO....

I think 75 is about the right bet in this spot actually, and depending on how much you and the rest of the table had behind, putting in a large bet on the non flush card turn...

Absolutely spot on. A lot of players wont look at bet/pot/odds. They look at their stack in relation to the bet.

Scenario
Maximum buy in $250
$250-less $20 = $230 stack.
Pot is $160.

After the flop bet $75, leaving you with a stack of $155 and knowing your gonna have to keep calling on the turn. Is what most players will think.

The question they ask is, is my hand worth going all in at the river? if no fold, if yes then push now.

Sometimes when I have hit top pair I look at the pot and betting full pot seems oversized and extreme at times. 1/2 to 3/4 is more then a generous bet. IMO. Unless I am scared of getting called, then a huge bet is usually the go, but you risk one person detecting weakness and calling due to the oversize.
In my experience
Standard preflop bets range between $15-$60.


Online it's different I suppose.

 

[red+black]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

I have to disagree with pax.

You are betting to win Sklansky bucks and a larger bet on the flop probably achieves that.

And with only 150 left, don't bet 100 into 400, shove that turn!

 

[YOTC]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

I have to disagree with pax.

Blasphemy!

 

[paxmaniac]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

You're greatly under-estimating the looseness of live players.

AJ/KJ never, ever folds. Overpairs obv never fold.

I mean, if you're betting $60 into $160, I'd suggest Jx always calls. 88-TT calls most of the time. A fair few 7's will also call.

All you'd do by dropping it to $30 is get the 58's and the 35's to play along - which is what you probably don't want.

Actually I have found live players at Burswood to be too weak with marginal hands postflop. They will overplay hands like TPTK, but tend to fold too easily to small postflop bets.

 

[mdc]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

Actually I have found live players at Burswood to be too weak with marginal hands postflop. They will overplay hands like TPTK, but tend to fold too easily to small postflop bets.

Fair enough. Guess it varies state-to-state.

I would say though, it's very hard to overplay TPTK 50 buy-ins deep.

 

[paxmaniac]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

I have to disagree with pax.

You are betting to win Sklansky bucks and a larger bet on the flop probably achieves that.

Oh dear, the weight of opinion seems to be sliding against me. I still stick to my guns though.

Your percentage equity is unlikely to be very different whether two opponents stay with you or five opponents stay with you on the flop - since the two pair and flush draw hands will surely call the larger bet. Note that if the only players who call your bet are those who have the odds to call, you might as well be shoving to completely price out the flush draw.

So it comes down to whether you get more dollar equity with the small bet or the larger bet. I'll see if I can come up with a good Stove sim to test it.

Note that Sklansky's fundamental theorem doesn't strictly apply in multi-player situations, since each option involves some players acting correctly and some players acting incorrectly.

And with only 150 left, don't bet 100 into 400, shove that turn!

I agree with this.

 

[red+black]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

IMO this is a big sign that your bet was the wrong size. It was big enough to force people to fold if they were drawing almost dead against you (e.g holding one pair or overcards), but not big enough to force the players with outs to fold (e.g holding two pair or the flush draw).

How many players do you want to see 4th street? Do you suggest a min-raise pre-flop with Aces so more see a flop drawing thin to your monster?

When there are 8 players to the flop, there is actually a pretty good case for making a really small bet like $30 into $160. This may actually build the pot substantially as players with overcards or better will look at the pot size and think it is worth staying in for such a small amount. If you are lucky someone in late position might raise it with something like top pair or a flush draw, trapping all the players in between for an even larger amount.

When the pot is really big on the flop, there isn't a whole lot of value in attempting to price out a flush draw. It's fairly unlikely that a flush draw is folding unless they are worried about higher draws.

I wouldn't be confident on being raised here so a check-raise with a full table would be better than a $30 bet. Otherwise, the $30 encourages too many players, especially those in late position, to call over-set mining, drawing to gutshots or even backdoor straight/flush draws. You want to get your stack in there, how does $30 achieve that? You seem to think that you won't get stacked if any non-flush card hits the turn. You are first to act on each street and you want to bet enough to price yourself in. If you bet $30 on the flop, the flush card comes, you check and are faced with a $150 bet, what do you do? In position you might see a free river, but here you need to bet enough on the flop out of position such that any draws that get there on the turn did so by making a bad call. Then when the bet comes on the turn, you will have to see if you have the odds to see the river.

But my point is that it is very difficult for you to price out the flush draw when the pot is so big. If you want to price out the draw on the flop, you need to shove (with so many players you can probably check raise).

A medium size bet means that only the players who have the odds to chase you (i.e the FD) are likely to call, while all the very marginal hands will fold. A small bet into many players can swell the pot substantially without changing the risk that you will be outdrawn on the turn.

If the flush draw will call $20 or $100, bet $100. Why bet less so that other random hands and draws will call? Your betting suggestions imply that you want to get to showdown. If you do get to showdown, make sure you didn't bet 30 then 60 and got raised on the river to 150 by the button by say T9ss that turned perfect with Qs for the OESD and BDFD and got there with a Kc on the end. "Yeah I got lucky, if you bet 60 on the flop I'm outta there. But with 3 callers on the flop I thought I'd try to hit my gutshot." Again, your advice smacks of someone that raises with Aces and complain that no one called, so next time you limp and donk off.

 

[paxmaniac]

Re: Australian (and NZ) Casino discussion (except for Crown Casino)

How many players do you want to see 4th street? Do you suggest a min-raise pre-flop with Aces so more see a flop drawing thin to your monster?

That's a very different situation, because the implied odds are very large compared to the pot odds.

I wouldn't be confident on being raised here so a check-raise with a full table would be better than a $30 bet. Otherwise, the $30 encourages too many players, especially those in late position, to call over-set mining, drawing to gutshots or even backdoor straight/flush draws. You want to get your stack in there, how does $30 achieve that?

$30 will build a huge pot, in which you have huge equity. Simple as that. Players with overcards, one pair and backdoors will call that $30 drawing dead.

Note that players with higher pocket pairs actually don't have the odds to call the bet "overset mining". With $160 in the pot, and perhaps $150 more from your $30 around the table, plus another $200 or so if they stack you is $510 altogether, or about 17:1 on the $30 bet. The odds of hitting their set are worse than 21:1. This is also true for the backdoor straights and flushes, because the price on the turn will be higher (probably a shove). I make more money for each of these players (plus the really drawing dead players like overcards and bad pairs) that call my $30 bet.

You seem to think that you won't get stacked if any non-flush card hits the turn.

Not at all, it's just that all the non-flush draws are very thin.

You are first to act on each street and you want to bet enough to price yourself in. If you bet $30 on the flop, the flush card comes, you check and are faced with a $150 bet, what do you do?

If eight players saw the flop, you have to assume the flop got there and you are drawing to a boat.

In position you might see a free river, but here you need to bet enough on the flop out of position such that any draws that get there on the turn did so by making a bad call.

My point is that the only way you can price out the flush draw is by shoving the flop. Even then, it doesn't price it out by much. I think there is a case that you get better equity by letting the flush have their cheap card and collecting equity from everyone else who have dead or nearly dead draws.

If the flush draw will call $20 or $100, bet $100. Why bet less so that other random hands and draws will call?

The point is that the flush draw is not making a mistake in calling $100, and the other random hands are not making mistakes by folding to the $100. OTOH, many of the random hands *will* be making mistakes by calling the $30. If you are going to bet $100, and the only player who calls you is calling correctly with a flush draw, then you might as well shove and force him to fold.

Your betting suggestions imply that you want to get to showdown. If you do get to showdown, make sure you didn't bet 30 then 60 and got raised on the river to 150 by the button

The turn is different, because with only one card to come and a decent stack in reserve you are much better placed to price out the draws (and there are obv more draws out there).

Again, your advice smacks of someone that raises with Aces and complain that no one called, so next time you limp and donk off.

No, that's a very different situation because you lose a lot more equity with aces when random hands call, and there is a lot more reverse implied odds against you.