Our 3-6 year players are stalled or going backwards

[jarmanagic]

Firstly I dont think we should over react after last night. We were awful but the year so far (3-3) has been adequate

But...

Our 3-6 year players (The Crushers of a couple of years ago) are not improving and we need them to as Goody/Edwards/Macca age. The first and second year players are playing very well, outstanding in the case of Otten

However

Van Berlo
Porps (injury related, why did we let him play on with that shoulder so long in 07?)
Knights
Symes
Maric
Griffin
Moran
Douglas
Reilly (bit older than others but in same group)

Are all playing less well/as well as 08

Bernie Vince has improved dramatically, left the others behind

For mine VB is on the verge of being dropped he is just miles off his best, not getting the ball much and burning it ++

We need these guys to improve to shoulder the burden. Why aren't they?

 

[NTRabbit]

Porps (injury related, why did we let him play on with that shoulder so long in 07?)

Shot yourself in the foot already. He did no further damage at all to his shoulder by continuing to play last season, in fact the sniping by Carlton to his head did more serious long term damage to him.

As a forward, he's leading our goal kicking with 16.0 from 6 games (On target for 58 goals at his current rate, the highest for us since 2002), I hardly think he's gone backwards, and given his lack of height and pedestrian pace trying to use him as a regular lead up forward all year has been a poor decision - he needs to creatively use the space around taller marking forwards. As a midfielder... well, he's never going to be a midfielder except to pinch hit, so let it go.

Brad Moran is only in his second year with us, having come from a couple years with the Kangaroos, a team not exactly noted for it's facilities and youth development.

 

[smoovy]

And for this reason we won't win a premiership anytime soon. There are no elite midfielders amongst them. The only current midfielders I think we have who can go to that elite level in the next year or two are Vince and Thompson.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Overall a fair point i believe.

Specifically, I'd leave out Knights and Porplyzia from that list. I also believe we cannot comment on Moran yet, is in great SANFL form, simply needs the opportunity.

The rest of them fair enough

How much does the game plan play a role? Has it created indecisive, defensive footballers lacking confidence? Many of these players have the ability to be better...is our system halting their growth? I really hope that the next crop do not befall the same fate, and that the guys who are faltering in this group can lift as they are no longer young players...it's time to perform.

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

I'm more concerned with the inconcistent/poor form of our senior players - reilly/rutten/thommo/stevens/johncock/doughty - these are the guys that should be stepping up to fill the massive void which will be created when Goodwin/Edwards/Macca retire. Of our senior players, IMO Bock is the only senior player who has been consistently good this year. The rest have either in the main been poor or up and down.

This is the group where our next captain should be chosen from. None would be deserving.

Of our crushers, you would have to say Vince/Porp are the only players who haven't gone backwards. Maybe we all initially overrated most of our crushers, after all most of them were drafted with latish picks.

 

[relapse]

And for this reason we won't win a premiership anytime soon. There are no elite midfielders amongst them. The only current midfielders I think we have who can go to that elite level in the next year or two are Vince and Thompson.

Yep agreed, our midfielders are not hurting the opposition with our disposals, I know I will get slammed, but Van Berlo gets 20-30 possession a game, but I dont believe those possessions are damaging to the opposition. Back in the day if Roo got 30 possies he would tear you a new one but now we are seeing guys in our side getting those numbers, but not hurting the opposition with their ball movement.

Dangerfield is someone that I can already see as being someone that will hurt you when he has the ball and looks to be more like a player in the Roo mould whereas some of our midfielders are too much in the Kane Cornes mould.

A have to agree with springy about our "senior" guys not standing up and leading that pack and going backwards at a rate of knots is Rutten. He needs to slim up to do something about his speed. As for I hope this isnt true, but I think Thommo looks disinterested and really hope this isnt the case, but I didnt like his attitude or body language at the Crows family day and while he has been putting in solid efforts there has been nothing game breaking from him this season, I just really hope that I am wrong about Thommo and that he is actually enjoying his footy.

Reilly, someone summed it up well last year that he was someone who we possibly should have traded at the end of last year. He still would of had a decent value whereas it will be on the decline for him as far as value goes from this point on. Unfortunately he doesn't appear to be destined to ever take that next step which is disappointing as he was threatening to do it for a while now, but it has just never happened.

Bock has been our one player this year that has stood out and lead on the field week after week, he would have to be close to the best CHB in the comp at the moment. He defends well and also gets plenty of the ball as well.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

And for this reason we won't win a premiership anytime soon. There are no elite midfielders amongst them. The only current midfielders I think we have who can go to that elite level in the next year or two are Vince and Thompson.

Yep...Symes, Douglas, Reilly, van Berlo only depth players in the midfield, or those who fill in other roles.

Maric (will always be relatively short, heavy and slow) and Griffin (unless he starts showing some willingness to actually get his body in a contest) will never be dominant ruckmen.

 

[jarmanagic]

Shot yourself in the foot already. He did no further damage at all to his shoulder by continuing to play last season, in fact the sniping by Carlton to his head did more serious long term damage to him.

As a forward, he's leading our goal kicking with 16.0 from 6 games (On target for 58 goals at his current rate, the highest for us since 2002), I hardly think he's gone backwards, and given his lack of height and pedestrian pace trying to use him as a regular lead up forward all year has been a poor decision - he needs to creatively use the space around taller marking forwards. As a midfielder... well, he's never going to be a midfielder except to pinch hit, so let it go.

Brad Moran is only in his second year with us, having come from a couple years with the Kangaroos, a team not exactly noted for it's facilities and youth development.

Re Porps he is clearly going about 50%. His superb finishing is covering that up, Walker has had about 10 more shots at goal. Porps marking/tacking/hard ball winning are way off. He has the potential to be a top 10 player in comp and a gun midfielder, but is reduced at the moment to a pinch hitting forward. I'm praying the shoulder improves but it is hampering him currently.

As far no further damage by playing on in 08, who says? The surgeon? On what evidence base does he back that up

Anyway remove him from discussion if you want, point still stands

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Dangerfield is someone that I can already see as being someone that hurts you when he has the ball and looks to be more like a player in the Roo mould whereas some of our midfielders are too much in the Kane Cornes mould.

Another guy that is going backwards at a rate or knots is Rutten. He needs to slim up to do something about his speed.

Two great points.

Re point 1, part of this is inherent ability but how much is being in the Crows system at fault? The past 3 years have seen worrying trends in some areas and it surely affects the attacking mindset of the players. When players dont attack, skills suffer. Now we have guys great at handballing to a player under the pump but only Vince (in this age group) can look forward and deliver a decent 40m kick...it's a disgrace really. These guys were better than that It's not too late but we gotta look at the coaches a bit as well.

Point 2...Rutten is a worry. The game is changing, and so is he. Unfortunately it's in the opposite direction. I really hope he turns things around cos he has some amazing strengths. If not, he'll follow the path of Ken McGregor into early delistment.

 

[Southerntakeover]

For mine VB is on the verge of being dropped he is just miles off his best, not getting the ball much and burning it ++

6th in the club in disposals. I think might be exaggering it a bit to suggest he'll be dropped. We've had far worse players this year.

I think also he should probably be viewed as playing under duress. Im not convinced that foot of his is properly healed. Remembering that a similiar injury kept Ottens out for half of last year.

 

[jackster83]

Bottom line is that these guys (apart from Porps) haven't really picked up the slack from the Hart/Roo/Mcleod generation and I cannot see an AFC captain coming from this group.

Maybe they were just made to look better by the top tier of players and the solid brand of footy we played in 2005 and 2006 as well as on occasions in 2007 and 2008. Pace, awareness and footskills are the key factors that the majority of this group struggle in, and the second two in particular, are critical if you want to become elite.

 

[King Elvis]

I blame our current game plan, plain and simple.

It isn't going to allow players to develop or regularly play outstanding games unless they are a backmen.

 

[relapse]

6th in the club in disposals. I think might be exaggering it a bit to suggest he'll be dropped. We've had far worse players this year.

I think also he should probably be viewed as playing under duress. Im not convinced that foot of his is properly healed. Remembering that a similiar injury kept Ottens out for half of last year.

There is getting the ball and then there is actually doing something with the ball, I dont care whether someone gets 15 touches or 30 touches as long as they make those touches count, you can get 40 touches, but if they arent damaging then they are just pointless.

 

[Southerntakeover]

There is getting the ball and then there is actually doing something with the ball, I dont care whether someone gets 15 touches or 30 touches as long as they make those touches count, you can get 40 touches, but if they arent damaging then they are just pointless.

Thats an entirely different point.

I also dont feel van Berlo is someone with a padded possession count. His effectiveness is an interesting point. His efficiency is down in statistical terms.

Funnily enough, Mick Doughty leads the club in that measure, and yet is one of the more maligned for his use.

 

[WALL-e]

I blame our current game plan, plain and simple.

It isn't going to allow players to develop or regularly play outstanding games unless they are a backmen.

It's only developing their possession count.

They now see 3 on 1's when we turn it over up field.

We have to develop a gameplan of out own, not Geelongs or the Hawks, and it should be suited to the cattle we have.

That said, I'm not upset of panicking.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

It's only developing their possession count.

They now see 3 on 1's when we turn it over up field.

We have to develop a gameplan of out own, not Geelongs or the Hawks, and it should be suited to the cattle we have.

That said, I'm not upset of panicking.

Agreed.

It seems we are copying Hawthorn predominantly, with the added Geelong handball (though ours are far different in quality).

However...

- when our young blokes are old enough the game will have changed to a new winning style
- we do not have the midfield of Geelong, and will not have it even in 3 years.
- we do not have the forward options of Hawthorn and very likely will not in the next 3 years.

We need to take aspects of these game plans (zoning in some form is here to stay as a tactical option) but we must also develop our own pathway.

Currently, I'd take the St. Kilda 09 game plan above Hawthorn or Geelong, as it is achievable over the next few years for our playing group.

 

[jarmanagic]

6th in the club in disposals. I think might be exaggering it a bit to suggest he'll be dropped. We've had far worse players this year.

I think also he should probably be viewed as playing under duress. Im not convinced that foot of his is properly healed. Remembering that a similiar injury kept Ottens out for half of last year.

Yes he might well be injured. Whilst we have some depth (Knights/Symes) if he is maybe a complete rest for a couple of weeks if he is?

 

[relapse]

Thats an entirely different point.

I also dont feel van Berlo is someone with a padded possession count. His effectiveness is an interesting point. His efficiency is down in statistical terms.

Funnily enough, Mick Doughty leads the club in that measure, and yet is one of the more maligned for his use.

I didnt mean to imply that VB got cheap stats, I just meant that when he has the ball he doesnt hurt the opposition enough IMO. I am not knocking how he wins the ball, but that he needs to make his possies count in a way that hurts the opposition. VB is not alone in that regard.

 

[Cap]

This thread is seriously a reflection with what is wrong with this board more so than what is wrong with the AFC.

Geelong didn't have the midfield they have now 3 years ago.... except they did.

I realsie we have a fair bit of fun on this board with the Walkers and VB's of the team but sometimes the movement between Hyper Critical to Hyper supportive is a joke.

 

[cmndstab]

This thread is seriously a reflection with what is wrong with this board more so than what is wrong with the AFC.

Geelong didn't have the midfield they have now 3 years ago.... except they did.

I realsie we have a fair bit of fun on this board with the Walkers and VB's of the team but sometimes the movement between Hyper Critical to Hyper supportive is a joke.

I couldn't agree more with this. It does get a bit annoying to be able to predict by the result of the match exactly which threads are going to appear each week.

There are problems at the Crows at the moment, there is no doubt, but between the various threads at the moment there are probably several hundred posts in the last two days about how almost every player we have is no good (other than Vince, Tippett, Otten and Johncock, I reckon all other 18 players in that game have been criticised), our coaching staff has got everything wrong, our youngsters are not as good as we thought, our game plan is boring and cannot win matches, we have a lack of leadership and toughness, and so on.

If we played exactly the same but Port had a poor match, we'd be seeing threads about how there are good signs and things are going in the right direction.

The point about Geelong is exactly the one I wanted to make. Geelong were a side exactly like ours for years - competitive but inconsistent, with some potential but they weren't really putting it all together. They stuck at it, let their young players mature into senior players, and turned into arguably the most impressive side in modern times. Certainly they have the best 50-game record of all time (47/50, pity one of the three was a Grand final ), whereas before that they were pretty much in our boat, they'd make the finals but do nothing, or struggle to make the finals at all.

As for our 3-6 year players, I'd be more worried about our 6-year players than the 3-year players. People forget that people like Edwards actually took six years to really start playing great footy. Someone like VB has "stagnated" in that he hasn't improved on last year (yet?) but going backwards is something that is really only true for a couple of Crows.

 

[Cap]

Agree Cmndstab

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/tp-adelaide-crows?year=2009&sby=13

that liknk shows the state of our list and hopefully puts a bit of perspective into looking at the Crows this year.

10 players with 100 + games (11 if you included Rielly on 99)
6 players between 50-100 (5 if you don't included Rielly)
17 players with 0-50 ! yes thats right 17 players on our list who have actually played a game haven't made it to 50 games.
The rest have 0 games - being 12 players (including 4 Rookies).

 

[marvin]

Van Berlo - playing a different role this year. Probably not playing worse than 08, but not playing better.

Porps - this time last year was going through the midfield a bit more, but was getting just under 20 possessions per game, and had 6.3. This year, posessions are down, tackles are about the same, but goals are way up. Again, a different role.

Knights - this time last year, also missed a lot of games at the start of the season with injury. This injury a complete fluke - not his fault. Doing well.

Symes - no doubt hampered by the pre-season accident, but last year averaged 16 possessions and 3.5 tackles per game; this year 17 possessions and 5 tackles per in his two games. Not much data to judge.

Maric - treading water a little. Last year mixed good games with anonymous ones; this year mixed good games with anonymous ones.

Griffin - see Maric.

Moran - last year was playing for Westies. This year plays for Westies. No progress - how much do we expect?

Douglas - Playing the old Matthew Bode role as the defensive forward, this year similar, except perhaps more across half forward. Apart from a tackle-less opening week, has averaged 4 tackles per game. A few more goals would be nice.

Reilly - Way better than last year. The fact he hasn't been cheap shotted by Will Minson has helped him.

 

[Jars458]

Re Porps he is clearly going about 50%. His superb finishing is covering that up, Walker has had about 10 more shots at goal. Porps marking/tacking/hard ball winning are way off. He has the potential to be a top 10 player in comp and a gun midfielder, but is reduced at the moment to a pinch hitting forward. I'm praying the shoulder improves but it is hampering him currently.

I agree with this, he needs to step up a bit more. Some can be blamed on the role he is being asked to play and we need a third ruck option so Tippett can play up forward more.

 

[Super Goalie]

I am increasingly frustrated by one player putting the another under pressure. Weather it be through the crap gameplan, lack of awareness, or just dumb decision making.

I'm talking about the handpassing to a team mate who is flat footed and facing away from goal. More often than not, the player recieving the ball is in the middle of about 6 opposition players ready to pounce.

A big exponant of this is Dickie Douglas. Around half the time he gets the ball, he will almost immediately look behind him for someone else to pass to.

Are we not confident in our foot skills, or the ability for our forwards to provide a contest from a long kick into the forward lines?

 

[kulak]

On the thread generally, even getting 1-2 1st tier players out of the recruiting options we had available is pretty good. Very happy with the development of Vince and Porplyzia, and if the likes of VB and Knights become solid role players there's nothing wrong with that.

On Geelong, they had some talented players for a while, and got relatively close a couple of years - I think there was a prelim loss by a kick to Sydney in 2005? - before they "clicked" in early 2007. We've got some way to reach even that point.

Currently, I'd take the St. Kilda 09 game plan above Hawthorn or Geelong, as it is achievable over the next few years for our playing group.

Just curious, how do you view the St Kilda game plan in comparison to those of Hawthorn, Geelong, and ourselves?