Perth Stadium on the verge of being canned

[Blue Dawn]

Another of the great lies.

Lets say Western Mining Company or BHP has its head office and reporting headquarters in Victoria...lets say... when they report their profits, and pay their taxes is that recorded as taxes collected by the Commonwealth from Victoria or from, say, WA where a massive percentage of their income is generated?

Just asking...

Even if they did it was still money via, in this example, from Melbourne mining houses (BHP, WMC, Rio Tinto etc) financed by Melbourne-based banks (say ANZ or NAB) that actually created these projects that employs your locals. Without them, WA might be more like Eritrea than Texas.

Also, as my original post suggested, what about all those years (pre mining boom) when your infrastructure and hospitals were effectively paid for by the taxpayers of Melbourne and sydney. Do your homework ffs.

 

[greennick]

They could be already building it at Burswood for next to nothing with Packers offer.


But nooooooooo, lets build it in Subiaco where all the same problems (parking, noise and lights with residents, traffic, shit public transport etc etc) will still be evident. Someone is on the take to keep it in Subiaco.

the whole thing is a ****ing shambles.

Packer didn't offer to pay for it, did he? I thought he just offered up the land at Burswood. Problem is the stadium would cost 200-300 million more to build there.

Also, if he did offer to build it for "next to nothing", wouldn't he own it? We get a good deal now at Subi with our "owner" (the WAFC) owning the stadium, I would hate for us to have to line Packer's pockets further if he was the owner of the stadium. It is nice pretty much controlling our stadium, that is a good result for the club.

 

[jko'neal]

They could be already building it at Burswood for next to nothing with Packers offer.


But nooooooooo, lets build it in Subiaco where all the same problems (parking, noise and lights with residents, traffic, shit public transport etc etc) will still be evident. Someone is on the take to keep it in Subiaco.

the whole thing is a ****ing shambles.

Your spot on. These fools have just spent millions of dollars on people coming up with a solution and now they can it FFS
They were offered the Burswood site for **** all, and now the Cockburn Council has stated it would cost half the price to build in that area 15 mins south of the city. But no, we'll just update Subi.
Iv'e said it many of times, if we didn't have land filled with so much Iron Ore here in WA. Our main mode of transport would be horse and cart

 

[Eagle87]

Even if they did it was still money via, in this example, from Melbourne mining houses (BHP, WMC, Rio Tinto etc) financed by Melbourne-based banks (say ANZ or NAB) that actually created these projects that employs your locals. Without them, WA might be more like Eritrea than Texas.

Also, as my original post suggested, what about all those years (pre mining boom) when your infrastructure and hospitals were effectively paid for by the taxpayers of Melbourne and sydney. Do your homework ffs.

I am happy to do whatever homework you like.

Under international tax law, the taxing jurisdication is the place where the income is earned (broadly before the shit stirrers join in). Because we are a single country, the revenues of a Vic headquartered company are reported as Vic revenue when an analysis of the mining royalties would show that teh VAST majority of their income has **** all to do with Victoria.

If you genuinely believe that WA doesnt and hasnt paid its way in the Commonwealth then you sir are the one that needs to do some homework ...

Interesting 2008 numbers for percentage of total Australian merchandise exports (exports other than services). WA 40%, Vic 12%, SA 6% (roughly same population). WTF are you guys doing? ANyone want to produce anything over there?

 

[Eagle87]

Your spot on. These fools have just spent millions of dollars on people coming up with a solution and now they can it FFS
They were offered the Burswood site for **** all, and now the Cockburn Council has stated it would cost half the price to build in that area 15 mins south of the city. But no, we'll just update Subi.
Iv'e said it many of times, if we didn't have land filled with so much Iron Ore here in WA. Our main mode of transport would be horse and cart

...and whats wrong with that? Just because they have cars in other countries doesnt mean we need them here. I mean we have so much sunshine and its so hot and the way of life, spending time with family, not wanting to rush around to busy money grubbing shopping centres and bars and the like... A nice trip to the local park with the kids in a horse drawn buggy... fantastic. And anyone who doesnt agree with me can just **** off to the "Eastern States" or overseas where they have cars - we dont want you here!!

 

[greennick]

Your spot on. These fools have just spent millions of dollars on people coming up with a solution and now they can it FFS
They were offered the Burswood site for **** all, and now the Cockburn Council has stated it would cost half the price to build in that area 15 mins south of the city. But no, we'll just update Subi.
Iv'e said it many of times, if we didn't have land filled with so much Iron Ore here in WA. Our main mode of transport would be horse and cart

Cockburn = worst idea ever. That place is a shit hole, imagine trying to go out after the footy in Cockburn. I don't care how much cheaper it is, that would be the epitome of ghey. There is **** all public transport as well. I don't think it would cost half the price either. How do they figure that? Where would the cost savings come from?

Also, this is not just the Government's fault. The WAFC is run by people with Subiaco business interests, the WAFC needs to be on board about any stadium. We can't just blame the Government alone for the Burswood proposal not working.

And it is not these fools that spent millions of dollars, it was the fools before.

 

[Blue Dawn]

I am happy to do whatever homework you like.

Under international tax law, the taxing jurisdication is the place where the income is earned (broadly before the shit stirrers join in). Because we are a single country, the revenues of a Vic headquartered company are reported as Vic revenue when an analysis of the mining royalties would show that teh VAST majority of their income has **** all to do with Victoria.

If you genuinely believe that WA doesnt and hasnt paid its way in the Commonwealth then you sir are the one that needs to do some homework ...and dont go by the crazy numbers reported at Commonwealth level, they are based on the same fallacies re address as are yours.

Interesting 2008 numbers for percentage of total Australian merchandise exports (exports other than services). WA 40%, Vic 12%, SA 6% (roughly same population). WTF are you guys doing? ANyone want to produce anything over there?

Produce anything!? We actually have what you call 'secondary' and even 'tertiary' sectors over here. Those are industries that actually DO produce sh!t - not simply dig it up and pour it on a ship for export. The Australian economy is based upon the very sevices sector infrastructure built over 120 years or so in Melbourne and Sydney.

You are totally missing the point here - it's like you are blinded by some inane parochialism. It's like being back in Queensland again!

I'll spell it out AGAIN for you. I'm not arguing your point re origin of tax/whose got more soil to dig up etc. My two central points that you continue to ignore are that this mining boom wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for powerful corporate and capital 'muscle' investing in making it happen - muscle from Melbourne, Sydney and overseas.

Secondly, what about all those years (particularly pre-1960's) when there was no major miing activity across WA? Who do you think paid for the infrastructure over there for the previous 100 years - the sheep and a few seal hunters?

 

[sharpie]

Your spot on. These fools have just spent millions of dollars on people coming up with a solution and now they can it FFS
They were offered the Burswood site for **** all, and now the Cockburn Council has stated it would cost half the price to build in that area 15 mins south of the city. But no, we'll just update Subi.
Iv'e said it many of times, if we didn't have land filled with so much Iron Ore here in WA. Our main mode of transport would be horse and cart

mate - how do you travel to cockburn?? by turbo-charged rocket?

Even a shoddy old Subiaco is a better option than Cockburn - one of the more ridiculous options out there.

The more central the better so it provides easy access for those north, south and east.

The Dome and MCG work so well because it is central and people can grab a beer before and after.

 

[sharpie]

Secondly, what about all those years (particularly pre-1960's) when there was no major miing activity across WA? Who do you think paid for the infrastructure over there for the previous 100 years - the sheep and a few seal hunters?

I think you'll find the "fathers" of the pilbar were Lang Hancock and Sir Charles Court. The WA boom would still happen regardless of the capital from the east coast. In fact that capital is insignificant in comparison to what WA could achieve overseas.

Regardless, the point is moot - the taxes are how they are - and the country as a whole is better off for it.

I have to say I understand where Barnett is coming from. $1bn isn't chicken feed. We have had the worst financial crisis in a century, business and community alike are watching their pennies and being responsible with unneccasry spending - surely we'd expect the same from our leaders?

Again - I just hope a patch job isn't done. Delay the project until it can be done properly.

We are getting a heap of infrastructure built - clearly the Stadium isn't a priorirty - which is a shame as a sports fan - but understandable

 

[cos789]

They could be already building it at Burswood for next to nothing with Packers offer.

The Burswood "offer" was basically to gift the stadium to Packer and had other commitments . The government wont even allow the WAFC to run the new stadium . The government has the guts to force the WACA to come to the party .The new stadium could be built at a fraction of the cost if they removed the need for rectangular configuration which is now no longer needed . IMO it is an opportune time to reasses the options . In the same newspaper there was a large article on building a new city at Stirling centred on the Stirling railway station . What better way to centre piece a new city with the new stadium . The land is there . The railway is there and the freeway is there . It's not that far North of the city. If they designed it right they could save a bundle on construction by using the oval as a centre piece
of highrise buildings ,the groundfloor catering to residents, commerce and fans and countless sports restaurant/functions opportunities .

.

 

[Eagle87]

Produce anything!? We actually have what you call 'secondary' and even 'tertiary' sectors over here. Those are industries that actually DO produce sh!t - not simply dig it up and pour it on a ship for export. The Australian economy is based upon the very sevices sector infrastructure built over 120 years or so in Melbourne and Sydney.

You are totally missing the point here - it's like you are blinded by some inane parochialism. It's like being back in Queensland again!

I'll spell it out AGAIN for you. I'm not arguing your point re origin of tax/whose got more soil to dig up etc. My two central points that you continue to ignore are that this mining boom wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for powerful corporate and capital 'muscle' investing in making it happen - muscle from Melbourne, Sydney and overseas.

Secondly, what about all those years (particularly pre-1960's) when there was no major miing activity across WA? Who do you think paid for the infrastructure over there for the previous 100 years - the sheep and a few seal hunters?

Haha... "inane parochialism" - I own a business with offices in 3 Asian cities, Perth, Darwin & Melbourne.

We can trace back forever and actually the "corporate & capital muscle" from Sydney or Melbourne really comes from somewhere else. Capital wanders around the world looking for opportunity. The opportunity in Australia has moved from manufacturing wastelands (like Victoria) to more productive sectors of the economy. There are those in WA who (rightly) believe that many in Sydney and Melbourne are arrogant twats who dont understand that the country is now far more dependant on what happens in WA and Qld than it is on waht happens in the "old states". The reality is that the biggest drag on Australia at present is Sydney. Melbourne is better but not much. You might argue this is a cyclical thing, a mining boom will end and we will go back to the "proper" order of things..some would argue that the change is more structural than that and that WA & Qld will continue to become the economic powers of Australia...

I get both perspectives, I have spent time living in many places and only spend a percentage of time in Perth even now... I suspect I actually have at least your capacity for reason. All I was saying, in response to one of the "inane parochial" Vics was to open your ****ing eyes and realise what is happening in the country. Its the same with our country generally and the attitude of many to Asia. "We are better", "we know more", "we are way ahead" etc etc... then in 15 years we will look back and go what the **** happened as they pass us by...

Have a view but open your eyes first...

 

[Forget the Stats]

Back on topic. Virtually no new sporting infrastructure has been built in Perth for 40 years. Our major athletics arena was recently closed as it was in ruins,our main swimming centre is also 40 years old. Soccor struggles here in a makeshift stadium and rugby is a joke at subi which is also past its useby date. So basically our governments have let us down by not providing us with decent facilities in this state for many years and I am sick of people who put this stadium up against hospitals and education etc as though we all have to make a moral choice between kicking a footy and saving sick children. I must admit we are currently building the new Perth arena for indoor sports and concerts though and it an adventurous design for sleepy old Perth too. Check it out below if your interested and have not seen it.http://www.dhw.wa.gov.au/pertharena/images.html
I needed that rant.

 

[Eagle87]

Back on topic. Virtually no new sporting infrastructure has been built in Perth for 40 years. Our major athletics arena was recently closed as it was in ruins,our main swimming centre is also 40 years old. Soccor struggles here in a makeshift stadium and rugby is a joke at subi which is also past its useby date. So basically our governments have let us down by not providing us with decent facilities in this state for many years and I am sick of people who put this stadium up against hospitals and education etc as though we all have to make a moral choice between kicking a footy and saving sick children. I must admit we are currently building the new Perth arena for indoor sports and concerts though and it an adventurous design for sleepy old Perth too. Check it out below if your interested and have not seen it.http://www.dhw.wa.gov.au/pertharena/images.html
I needed that rant.

The primary reason, as espoused by the late Wally Foreman" is that there has never been ANY overarching strategy re sports facilities in Perth and we have simply allowed each sport to develop randomly without a plan.

This is evidenced by the difficulties in getting the new stadium (even before the recession and the royalties to regions). Cricket wont leave the WACA, Rugby & Soccer want a purpose built rectangular stadium and King Football wont go anywhere unless it gets the same deal as at Subi (with compensation for any "losses")...

Someone needs to set out a plan. If the Gabba, MCG & SCG can host football and cricket then its clearly possible to have a 2 sport stadium. Obviously, the never ending malaise and lack of direction over many years has created a problem in that both these major sports now have vested interests in property and leases and various other arrangements that cause them to not want to move. Someone needs to take charge of this, risk pissing some people off and both articulate a position and then use leverage (and large slabs of government money are leverage) to get an organised policy.

If we build a stadium for football and cricket and can access proceeds from the revelopment of Subi & the WACA (2 prime bits of real estate) then surely something can be achieved better than sticky taping Subi Oval back together..

 

[Blue Dawn]

Haha... "inane parochialism" - I own a business with offices in 3 Asian cities, Perth, Darwin & Melbourne.

We can trace back forever and actually the "corporate & capital muscle" from Sydney or Melbourne really comes from somewhere else. Capital wanders around the world looking for opportunity. The opportunity in Australia has moved from manufacturing wastelands (like Victoria) to more productive sectors of the economy. There are those in WA who (rightly) believe that many in Sydney and Melbourne are arrogant twats who dont understand that the country is now far more dependant on what happens in WA and Qld than it is on waht happens in the "old states". The reality is that the biggest drag on Australia at present is Sydney. Melbourne is better but not much. You might argue this is a cyclical thing, a mining boom will end and we will go back to the "proper" order of things..some would argue that the change is more structural than that and that WA & Qld will continue to become the economic powers of Australia...

I get both perspectives, I have spent time living in many places and only spend a percentage of time in Perth even now... I suspect I actually have at least your capacity for reason. All I was saying, in response to one of the "inane parochial" Vics was to open your ****ing eyes and realise what is happening in the country. Its the same with our country generally and the attitude of many to Asia. "We are better", "we know more", "we are way ahead" etc etc... then in 15 years we will look back and go what the **** happened as they pass us by...

Have a view but open your eyes first...

Now who's sounding like an 'arrogant twat'. Don't bother questioning my vision - i just got back from a month in China. My university education also informs me very well of the social and economic history of this country and it's states.

While there is some merit to your argument you continue to ignore the fact that WA was fully reliant on financial support from Melbourne and Sydney for (at least) it's first 100 years. If it wasn't for the number of Victorian miners over there at the time, you may very well have further delayed the Federation of the various states into a nation and had your wish of being something other than Australian. You'd also, more tham likely, be playing soccer and speaking Indonesian or Japanese by now too.

Yes the minerals of Wa and Qld (largely) are fuelling the economy at the moment. Yes the very infrastructure that enables this boom was lagely paid by the taxes and capital of Melbourne and Sydney.

Tell me, what will your little economic nirvana do when we finally evolve (in the near future) our way past fossil fuels? Me thinks the intellectual 'capital' in a place like Melbourne, when combined with economic infrastructure that's slightly more sophisticated that a big ****ing hole in the ground, MIGHT just remain fairly central to the country's economy. I suppose time will tell.

Nonetheless, feel free to prattle on ad infinitum about how WA IS the centre of the universe and how much the rest of Australia owes to those few souls out there BUT don't waste your time patronising others who clearly know, at least, as much about such matters as your esteemed self.

 

[Eagle87]

Now who's sounding like an 'arrogant twat'. Don't bother questioning my vision - i just got back from a month in China. My university education also informs me very well of the social and economic history of this country and it's states.

While there is some merit to your argument you continue to ignore the fact that WA was fully reliant on financial support from Melbourne and Sydney for (at least) it's first 100 years. If it wasn't for the number of Victorian miners over there at the time, you may very well have further delayed the Federation of the various states into a nation and had your wish of being something other than Australian. You'd also, more tham likely, be playing soccer and speaking Indonesian or Japanese by now too.

Yes the minerals of Wa and Qld (largely) are fuelling the economy at the moment. Yes the very infrastructure that enables this boom was lagely paid by the taxes and capital of Melbourne and Sydney.

Tell me, what will your little economic nirvana do when we finally evolve (in the near future) our way past fossil fuels? Me thinks the intellectual 'capital' in a place like Melbourne, when combined with economic infrastructure that's slightly more sophisticated that a big ****ing hole in the ground, MIGHT just remain fairly central to the country's economy. I suppose time will tell.

Nonetheless, feel free to prattle on ad infinitum about how WA IS the centre of the universe and how much the rest of Australia owes to those few souls out there BUT don't waste your time patronising others who clearly know, at least, as much about such matters as your esteemed self.

Wow, a whole month in China AND a degree..imagine that

Yes, all the intellectual capital is in Melbourne ... you prove my point over an over again.

Mate, the reality is that we have needed the rest of Australia at times and the thought of speaking bahasa and playing soccer is mildly disturbing (although I speak bahasa, so...) but WA is certainly an afterthought for many in Sydney, Melbourne & Canberra and is certainly fairly plundered at present for commonwealth revenue - this is problematic as it will lead to resentment. As you rightly suggest, the miners from the east living in Kal were about the sole reason that WA didnt secede - I am less convinced that this has been a good outcome for WA but that said, I hardly think this place is the centre of the universe - I actually find Perth as boring as batshit and a frustrating place, as decisions to improve the place are rarely made...

As indicated, I was pointing out to the earlier poster who was sledging WA in general for squandering our current wealth, that much of that current wealth is actually paying for him to be unemployed in Melbourne

If an argument that disagrees with your Uni educated mind is automatically flawed and its author an arrogant w***er then frankly you went to the wrong uni....

We can compare qualifications and "intellectual capital" if that would make you feel special?

 

[Beckers]

^^ This economics debate is surprisingly enjoyable^^

 

[huggy_b]

And if the stadium is to be canned, where are they all coming from and what will they put my spaghetti in?


And as for the Cockburn idea, it would be advantageous for me, but seriously not a viable option unless they were going to go a 2 stadium Eagles / Dockers thing. A Docker home ground in Cockburn would be good and an Eagles home ground somewhere NOR. Pipe dream, but may be reality one day.....


And to throw another one into the mix, the Belmont race course land would be a cracking place to put a stadium. Central, close to the city/casino and easy to get to fremantle.

 

[Blue Dawn]

Wow, a whole month in China AND a degree..imagine that

Yes, all the intellectual capital is in Melbourne ... you prove my point over an over again.

Mate, the reality is that we have needed the rest of Australia at times and the thought of speaking bahasa and playing soccer is mildly disturbing (although I speak bahasa, so...) but WA is certainly an afterthought for many in Sydney, Melbourne & Canberra and is certainly fairly plundered at present for commonwealth revenue - this is problematic as it will lead to resentment. As you rightly suggest, the miners from the east living in Kal were about the sole reason that WA didnt secede - I am less convinced that this has been a good outcome for WA but that said, I hardly think this place is the centre of the universe - I actually find Perth as boring as batshit and a frustrating place, as decisions to improve the place are rarely made...

As indicated, I was pointing out to the earlier poster who was sledging WA in general for squandering our current wealth, that much of that current wealth is actually paying for him to be unemployed in Melbourne

If an argument that disagrees with your Uni educated mind is automatically flawed and its author an arrogant w***er then frankly you went to the wrong uni....

We can compare qualifications and "intellectual capital" if that would make you feel special?

Ohhhh and you're pulling 'golly gosh' faces all over the place despite the fact that it is YOU - from the directorial chair of your Asia Pacific HQ - who initiated the 'my credentials are bigger than yours' sideshow. Nothing worse than a hypocrite eagle boy.

And yes i actually don't think that our respective historical viewpoints would differ that greatly but, at the same time, you should also be aware of the fully INTERdependant nature of the relationship between, in this case, Melbourne and WA rather than mmerely blabbering on about how the whole joint would be shot without WA.

Indeed, Melbourne does have the greater 'intellectual capital' and that's a simple equation of having 3 TIMES the population of Perth rather than any innate parochialism on my behalf. If you wish to cast about erroneous assumptions merely in some vain attempt to confirm your biases then you feel free to continue to do that but don't expect me to swallow it.

Anyhow, happy to continue this discourse at a later time as i've things to do. Surpried you've so much time given your international empire and all.

 

[numchuks]

^^ This economics debate is surprisingly enjoyable^^

Agreed

 

[Sandgroper35]

I don't know why anyone is shocked by this news. West Coast and Fremantle are the only sporting teams anyone cares about in WA. West Coast and Fremantle are the WA Football Commission. The WA Football Commission is the Western Australian State Government. Projects run by the Government, for the Government never get done in conservative states such as Western Australia. It's called red tape people.

 

[Dont be a lemon]

I suppose this is the price you pay for the bloody Nationals having influence "Royalties for the regions" Yeah because the ****ing south west has been a big player in a mining boom

It's a poor decision by Barnett. Tacking on a new level behind the western goals isn't going to change the piss poor aging facilities in the rest of the stadium and the fact it's near impossible to get decent elevated seats on the wings (northern wing is century old club members and the southern wing is just corporate boxes).

If this goes ahead 20 years from now we'll just be going "if only we'd built a new stadium instead of tacking on few more seats...".

 

[jko'neal]

mate - how do you travel to cockburn?? by turbo-charged rocket?

Even a shoddy old Subiaco is a better option than Cockburn - one of the more ridiculous options out there.

The more central the better so it provides easy access for those north, south and east.

The Dome and MCG work so well because it is central and people can grab a beer before and after.

I never said the Cockburn idea was a good idea, I'm just stating what was written in the local paper. And every single Eagles and Dockers supporter I know and talk too, reckon Subi is a shithole and want the stadium built elsewhere.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

The reality remains that WA would be extraordinarily wealthy if it wasnt part of Australia. It is the constant propping up of you guys that stops us getting the things we want ....

You do also understand that if it wasn't for rich eastern states like Vic and NSW there would no infrastructure out in your God forsaken desert hellhole?

We spent a century of our taxes building you sand bludgers everything you have, and in the last twenty years, when you've finally started to pull your weight, you start getting precious.

I love the way sand bludgers talk about secession.

I'd love to see it. I'd join the Australian Federal forces as they moved to crush the rebellion in seconds.

I can just see it now, rolling through Claremont with six of my mates sitting on top of a tank, with a banadana, a badly rolled ciagrette and a Kalashnikov with two mags taped together, cackling maniacally as sand bludgers flee out of our way.

You sand bludgers are like the Arabs. You don't actually DO anything. You just sit around on your fat bums watching as other people dig up stuff that by geological fluke, happened to end up inside some arbitrary borders drawn up by Colonial Office figures last millenium.

In Vic and NSW, we do stuff, we innovate, we make things and provide things.

You guys just sit around watching other people dig big holes and then somehwo expect the rest of us to be impressed by it.

I say remove WA's statehood now. Make it a protectorate of Federal Australia, impose martial law, send all the sand bludgers that complain down the mines and be done with it.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

Another of the great lies.

Lets say Western Mining Company or BHP has its head office and reporting headquarters in Victoria...lets say... when they report their profits, and pay their taxes is that recorded as taxes collected by the Commonwealth from Victoria or from, say, WA where a massive percentage of their income is generated?

Just asking...

Of course they need to have the HQs in Melbourne or Sydney.

Head office functions require a large pool of skilled and well educated employees, something in short supply over in sand bludger land.

Christ, you can't even get it together to open shops on Sunday? Why in God's name would anyone expect you to be capable of complex managerial functions?

 

[yaco55]

I am confused !

WA should secede from Australia but then could join with Singapore.

I always thought that when u secede you become a stand alone country.